I absolutely think that our recovery has worked as it has because of the attitudes of both of us...I say often that recovery is a tandem effort...

I'm not hard on myself anymore Mr. G, that time has passed -- I have been forgiven by God and Mr. W...Mr. W does support me and always has...I envision myself as I am TODAY...Which is a very blessed woman with a wonderful husband and family...

I believe that I will always regret deeply what I did...I don't see how I could not regret it...I do not dwell on it today as that would be unhealthy for our whole family...

Today we ARE a "married couple, sharing love and investing in each other", but that doesn't change that we have an experience under our belts that we can use to help others...Helping others is important to us...We both post here and talk about the situations that we post to together -- posting here is NOT a negative for us -- we have never viewed it as such...Some of the finest times in our history have been when we were volunteering to help others...that works for us...

Mrs. W

P.S. Hey Mel, when ya quote me, could ya at least correct my spelling errors first?!?! D'oh!

Bravo, Mrs. W, Bravo

Mr. G

"Today we ARE a "married couple, sharing love and investing in each other", but that doesn't change that we have an experience under our belts that we can use to help others...Helping others is important to us...We both post here and talk about the situations that we post to together -- posting here is NOT a negative for us -- we have never viewed it as such...Some of the finest times in our history have been when we were volunteering to help others...that works for us...

Mrs. W"

And we are so lucky and grateful to have you experienced folks taking the time to do so! THANX so much!!!

I wish my WXH could become like you Mrs. W - so former that he would have such a passion for fighting adultery.

"P.S. Hey Mel, when ya quote me, could ya at least correct my spelling errors first?!?! D'oh!"

LOL - I bet there hasn't been a single post of mine that I didn't go back and edit for spelling. And a few times when I quoted others I've wondered if it would be wrong, sort of an insult maybe, to fix their spelling mistakes too? (with me it's an OCD thing LOL like when I have to straighten up the brochures in an office or store even though I am a customer instead of employee.)

exactly.
if a person can look into their past and see an activity that they are no longer doing, they are a "former" ...
it could be something positive or something negative. it does not give one license to treat a person differently today unless that person appears to be acting the same way.

Interesting discussion made more interesting by MEDC's initial post about the FWS always carrying that title.

I say all the more interesting because I agree with what he says but was very very uncomfortable with my agreement and NO it was not because MEDC said it.

I thought about it a bit and I think I understand why I was uncomfortable with it. Let me offer you my thinking for your consideration.

People's past is part of who they are and how they have come to be what/who they are today. A bad past can lead to a person that is exempilary (sp) today. A bad past can lead to someone who bears watching to day. So I agree with MEDC.

But, here what was bothering me. Let's say some one is married to a person for 20 years. For 19 years of the marriage this person was a good spouse and even put up with the "failings but not affairs" of the other spouse. But, in that 20th year this spouse had an affair, which is now over and the couple is recovered, (could mean the WS recovered their senses ya know!)

So in carrying the idea of their past being part of who they are, who is this FWS? The loving and good spouse of 19 years or the product of the 20th year? Or a mix? How shall we mix it? 19/20 good, 1/20 bad???

Further, there are people that come here as WS's who are striving to be FWS' that were NOT good partner's in their marriage, but the affair ends, the WS becomes a FWS and even learns how to be a good spouse. HOw does one weight this person's past and use it in the future?

Do you see why while I agree with MEDC we are a product of our past I had some unease about it as well. It is because often the affair is a small part of a FWS' history. It could be a continuation of behavior of an "entitled" person, or it could be a complete abberation of this person's life.

How do we weight this? It seems to me that saying a person must carry "label" of a FWS makes sense on one level, but I guess my problem was how much of a "label" depends on rest of that person's life and how it has been led as well.

People fail and the often fail their spouse in ways other than adultery. Should that be part of the "event set" that all of us carry around? Perhaps it should, but it must be placed in context with their whole life or whole marriage.

I no more believe "once a cheater always a cheater" than I believe "once a good person always a good person". People change, grow, learn, make mistakes,learn from them and grow some more, OR they atrophy as a person.

I think that MEDC's comments are valid. I just don't think they go far enough. I guess that was what was bothering me.

God Bless,

JL

I also believe that FWS's should always carry that title. I learned my lesson in between dday #1 and #2, when I decided to forgive WW too quickly....she will always be under question, and always be a FWW...always.

If some of you never think about the affair your spouses had in the past, then you could possibly erase the "FW". But if I've learned anything form this epxperience, and from Dr. Harley's advice, it's to never have 100% trust in my spouse ever again...therefore if she somehow earns the "F"...she will always have it. Simply, because I will never forget, and this time possibly never even forgive.

I just don't believe it is productive to apply labels at all. We are 3 years in recovery - maybe that changes your perspective.

I don't think of my wife as anything other than my wife. Sure I remember what she has DONE - but that was such a small part of our history.

My wife will openly share with others who might benefit from her experiences - she's reached out to a few WW's. But that is the only context in which we "remember" what happened.

I will always be an FWW. I don't label myself that on the "outside" but it is defintely part of my history. My H and I made a joint decision that my A would not define us or our very long marriage.

I was an exemplary, very happy wife for 28 years. Nothing can take away what we had before my A. Yes, it was tough for my H not to wipe away all the good years but he did it.

We are coming up for 34 years married next month. It is the cause for a great deal of celebration for us.

On the other hand, how do you think I feel when people hear that we've been married that long. They say "wow, in this day and age - that's amazing." I don't go broadcasting to all and sundry that I've had an A, mainly because that's business between my H and I, but I do say to people that we've made it despite everything. If someone asked if my marriage had been affected by infidelity, I would tell them. I also know that when someone comes in with the latest "gossip" about an A they've heard of I make my feelings very clear what I think of (active) adulterers.

ETA We had a prime minister who left his wife for his affair partner. They were married 20 years and when the ex PM died, his "wife" wrote a book about their life together. It was a complete load of fogbabble and tripe and she had the audacity to call the PM's ex wife "bitter" and couldn't understand why his children hated her (duh!).

My coworker was recently at an event where this woman spoke about the ex PM. At the end, everyone stood and applauded but my coworker refused to stand and refused to applaud. She said I'm not letting "that woman" think I approve of her. I said "good for you". I haven't yet told my coworker about my A because we haven't been working together that long. I intend to though because it is something about me that I think she should know.

Sorry for the corn fusion. That was the answer 2 SH's question, "Can a hypocrite give good advice?".


Very well said. I agree, that's what I was trying 2 say, just couldn't convey it as well!


Like I said somewhere, I can't even remember when I stopped using those terms regarding my W. Years ago, now.


IMMEDIATELY, in my view. And I think this CAN also help a wayward begin the process of becoming a not wayward.


When we allow ourselves that, and those around us, 2. It's a choice. Not making that choice, either for a BS or WS, or even a FBS or FWS is stuckedness.


I don't even think there is a good reason.

-ol' 2long

KiwiJ,

Why should she know? I don't think her being your friend warrents her KNOWING about your marriage to your H. I am not sure your H would be very happy with lots of people knowing you had an A.

IF her marriage was in trouble and you were offering her advice it might be appropriate for her to know where you are coming from (more accurately where you have been). But, really this is something you should POJA with Rob before you go around telling people (friends or not) about your A.

You see on one hand I do think FWS should just become W/H. I also think that if one forgets history then one often gets the chance to relive it. I also think that people learn from their mistakes. But, I don't know that everyone needs to know your history.

Just thoughts.

JL

To paraphrase Kiwi, before I put her back on ignore, none of you are my wife’s H…

I am not going to appeal to my situation being different from any of your experiences. It is different, but appealing to my uniqueness would be a tendril of BS fog. My situation is what it is. And it has changed me forever.

I do not trust anyone who has abused children to be around mine, or anyone else’s children.

Now, I no longer trust anyone who has committed adultery. I do not trust them to be around me or children.

Lack of forgiveness has absolutely nothing to do with it. Perpetrators of adultery and the lies, cheating, abuse and the evil that goes with it owe me nothing. If cancellation of all debt is complete forgiveness, they have it. But, I am not required to let them be in a position to accrue new debits either.

I am not bitter, as far as I can tell. Far from it. I belive my wife’s VLTA has changed me for the better, actually. I now know what I want. I now know what I will put up with and what I will not put up with. I feel as if I have a backbone for the first time since she met her first OM. I now know how to make my own way in life. My own way around adulterers in particular.

Anyone who has ever committed adultery is a trigger. They don’t like it? Well, they don’t have to be around me any more than I have to be around them.

I will not put up with nor be around anyone who has committed this evil if I do not have to be around them. And I usually do not have to. Before, well, I would have let them have their way around me. I would have acquiesced even if I did not like it. Not ever again. I will not put myself in a position where I have to trust them to not do it around me again.

IRL I control a huge budget for a major research laboratory. I direct its overall operations. I select problems to solve. I hire and I fire. I am very good at what I do. In the past three years three people who I know have cheated on their spouses and another who was an OM have requested a job in this laboratory. I have known them for years. They would be good assets. I thought about each case individually. But they would have been triggers for me. I think I would have had to leave if I hired any of them. So I did not. (I found just as good if not better replacements, too.)

Adulterers, former adulterers and recovered adulterers (it’s all just adjectives isn’t it) can do whatever they want. They may place themselves in whatever situations they want. They owe me nothing. I do not want anything from them. I simply choose to not be around them, not to interact with them, not to work with them or post to them or vote for them. Even if it is only in case they might do something similar again. I would rather be safe than sorry. Safe from ever feeling that awful again.

The scarlet A is still there on all of them. It really is. I can see it. Faded and covered with makeup. Some other letter tattooed over it. But it is still there. I see it.

Tough? It is. But I no longer care what they want. They got what they wanted a long time ago. They are still getting it even now with their big fat F’s. Just not from me.

More than half my life has been subjected to adultery and its lying, cheating, abusive consequences. It was time I took charge of my life and life’s triggers and stayed away from anyone who has ever committed that evil. I have earned the right.

I often feel uncomfortable being human, now. I sometimes wish I wasn’t of the same genus, nor even in the same phylum as adulterers. I don’t like having to live on the same planet with adulterers and former adulterers. But what’s a geek to do?

I have been told this is PTSD related. I have been told I will eventually get over it. I dunno, though. Life is much, much better now than it has been since I can remember. There are plenty of people around me who have never committed adultery and never will. Why would I settle for less when I don’t have to?


Oh, and in the case of my M – I am responsible for what I do and it will be on my timeline, not yours. FWIW, I am not settling. That was what I used to do. I now have a long term plan with accountable goals, finally.

Just to throw a curve at you BigK

Every morning my H goes in front of a group of people and says:

"I'm T, and I'm an alcoholic."

Neither he nor I see any shame there. It is what it is. He IS an alcoholic. There is a risk to his NOT admitting that every day.

I am not arguing with the point you made, however, I am offering that, for us, application of a label has been a lifesaver.

And furthermore, should my H one day insist he is not going to self apply that label, I suddenly become very vulnerable once again.

I'm not sure how this applies to other labels - but I am certain how I feel about this particular label.

Pep

JL, normally I wouldn't go around telling people but my coworker has shared a great deal about her marriage with me. I don't think there's been infidelity but she is sometimes very unhappy and confides in me. She is 62 and has been married the same length of time as me. Her H can be very, very difficult - the silent treatment, locking her out of the house, that sort of thing.

I think she thinks I have the "perfect" marriage. I hate being a hypocrite - I want to share with her. Women do that, in case you hadn't noticed. I also have some very strange reactions when she talks about adultery (other people's) and I want to come clean with her where I'm coming from.

As for Rob worrying - he has told EVERYBODY. I think he even told the guy who came to clean the windows at the store. He also announced it at dinner with our neighbours. It came out of the blue and it certainly wasn't POJD with me.

2 minutes later I had another thought - I know for a fact that my husband thinks of himself as a FWH - and he uses that part of his past to protect our current marriage. He does not trust himself to be in certain situations where he has proven to be vulnerable - the "FWH" is like a safety shield for him.

He does not go around advertising his past to strangers - however if the situation arises, he does share with other men in his group how he almost lost his family to his adultery - he's not living in shame - he is glorious today - but his past has branded him (scarlet A ??? I donno) and that brand has turned out to be protective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pep

So labels serve the people applying them.

As you have shown, Pep, that is not always a bad thing, such as in the case of an alcoholic.

It serves Ap to apply the label of wayward, former or otherwise, as he makes no bones about, because of his experience and the way he allowed it for too long.

It serves me to forget past life labels, because that is the only way I feel I can move on from the past.

As have 2long and Mr. Goodstuff said it wouldn't serve them, their wives or marriages to apply the FWW/BS label. Faith as well said she can't even relate to the label or waywards anymore.

Labels serves the people applying them, not necessarily the people they are applied to. But sometimes some people need to apply them to themselves, lest they forget. That's way different than me. Although I will never forget the easy way I used to let whomever, or whatever into my life. Those are fences though, not labels.

It bothers me to see them here as such a big part of this place, but others need them or see them as necessary. So we all are different and perceive things differently.

Hi Aphelion,

I just read your post and I think it does sound like PTSD (which I've gone through a couple of times)

I totally related to the wishing you could go live on another planet thing!

I don't feel like that anymore but I still always want to know whether the people I meet are somehow involved in adultery. I think that's called 'hypervigilance'? It's actually a very normal protective reaction to trauma.

Also, I made friends with some people and then later, after we'd been friends for some time, learned their marriages were the result of adultery, that they broke up their first marriages to be together. I felt betrayed that they didn't reveal that sooner. One such couple we knew really well, they became like family to us. I did tell the wife, who was one of my best friends by then, exactly how I felt about adultery and how much it had hurt me when my WH had cheated on me in the past. We're just acquaintances mostly now, our paths cross on occasion because of some mutual friends and activities. It's been years since we've been to each other's homes...

When my WXH left us for the latest OW she did see how much it hurt my daughters and has since admitted what she did was immature and had hurt her own daughters and his wife. (She also admitted that her adultery partner/husband cheated on her too early in their affair marriage.)

At my age it is doubtful I will get married to a man who wasn't already married in the past (I won't even consider the guys I know that have never been married yet because they're too young for me.) I'm not interested in any man who broke up his first marriage because of adultery and/or a man who's XW wants him back, or their kids want them to get back together. I realize this pretty much means I probably will never marry again LOL. Maybe a widower with a bunch of little kids he needs help raising?

I would however consider reconciliation with my WXH, but ONLY if he met a huge list of requirements first (he won't) and became as anti-adultery as I am (doubtful). And he'd have to maintain that for a long time before I would trust it's for real... So by then we'd be geezers so what would be the point anyway? LOL

Actually, ANY man I meet would have to be VERY anti-adultery to be of interest to me. I don't ever again want to have to try to convince a husband to avoid OW traps. I'm not 100% sure I'd rule out a *F*WS... if his adultery wasn't what ended his marriage, his X wife and kids for sure didn't have any objection to his remarrying, and he was as anti-adultery as Mrs. W is now...

Mere,

I married a man who was 48 yo and has never been married before. He did have a daughter out of wedlock when he was in his early twenties (as did I) but his is grown...and no exes who wanted him back (that reminds me of a joke, but I won't tell it here LOL) He is also very spiritual and against lying, cheating or any other behavior that would harm another living thing.

So don't think it isn't possible, that you will ever marry again.

MM (and others). I am very anti adultery now. Before my A, I didn't even know anyone affected by infidelity and didn't really think much about it. I didn't think it would be something I would ever have to give a lot of thought to. I was definitely against it but, like being against drugs (which I am) it was not something I thought I'd have to stand up and be counted on one day.

Don't you think it smacks of hypocrisy for me to be totally anti adultery now, to the point of making my thoughts very plain to people. In the last two years, I've faced two people I know who were in A's and told them what I thought of their behaviour, to the point where neither of them sought me out to speak to them again.

Where does hypocrisy end and the crusade of the FWS begin?

No, if you are, in fact, anti-adultery, it is not hypocritical at all.

I don't think we need to worry about any MB members being anti-adultry hypocrites. More like anti-adultry vigilantes. We're practically army worthy.