No offence, but I disagree:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenylethylamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine

Just Learning,

I wonder if this would apply in a dry drunk situation where the behaviors are absolutely the same, but missing the substance of alcohol.

But then Harley considers the A an addiction.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, so just ignore if it has no merit.

Galoot you are correct. It is phenylethyamine, no extra la.

I think the other poster got mixed up in thinking the last "word" was alanine. Alamine is not a chemical term, alanine is (it is an amino acid). "amine" is also a chemical term-- for the NH4 group (an amino group, different than an amino acid). But, in all my years working I've never heard of an "alamine". That's combining "alanine" and "amine", is my guess, but those are two totally different things.

I am a research biologist, that's how I know this crap. :-D

Anyways, not really relevant, just like to chime in where I actually KNOW something

E.

No offence, was hoping you wouldn't so take either.

I used one la early on in discussions. After a while, I switched to using two la instead of one. I had a reason.

The spelling is easy to confuse. Try a standard google search, which turns up numerous links for phenylethylalamine in terms of infatuations, and not too many when you spell it with one la. You also get links to a commercial drink one way and chocolate another. No question, confusing to me at the time, and now.

Soooo, in difference to your certainty, I did some more research. Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster both use one la. Numerous other sites use two based on google searches.

So which is correct?

NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) calls it Benzeneethanamine and uses one la in the aternate names directory. NIST has ZERO reference when using two la. This builds a good case for one la.

Then, I found several authoritive references using google to phenylethylalamine as an amine, which relates to Methamphetamine, which the DEA classifies as a drug. Wikipedia deals with the one la spelling exactly the same way. Given the level of the authority on the sites using two la versus the level of the authority of the sites which use only one:

I have come to the conclusion that both spellings seem to refer to the same chemical structure, C8H11N. On the other hand, when you google the two spellings, two la gets more romantic hits in terms of infatuation than one la. And that was my point. Like I said, I originally used one la whilst trying to take the mystery out of infatuation and to make the point that the production of the meth like chemical involved faded in time.

I kept getting confused feedback and some disagreement. When I started using two la, that stopped because of what you see when you google it that way.

I have beat this to death. Sorry. . .

Larry

eeyoree:


Just the one I was looking for

If you have access to elsevier, take a look at:

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0920996497001163

or:

http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/bitstream/10204/2151/3/Maila_1_2005.pdf

Which is from the International Journal of Phytoremediation, 7:87–98, 2005

I got both off a google search using two la. Al Turtle is one site I use because it is free and it has a rather complete discussion on the effects of however you spell PEA in terms of infatuations and he spells it with two la.

Given my now total confusion on which is the correct spellling, I guess I will use both in the future and direct those who want good google hits in terms of infatuation to two la and those who want what appears to be somewhat more accuracy with one la.



Larru

Hi All,

Thanks for your input. It's curious that most As end and that Dr. Harley sees them as addictions. I would have thought that most alcoholics and smokers don't ever conquer their addictions but I could be wrong.

Any other remarks from veterans out there regarding the lifespan of most As?

During this six month trauma I have worked very hard to conquer selfishness and anger. W says that "I've been really good recently" but then other times when the fog is thicker alleges that it's all an act with a hidden agenda. I assume it's because contact with OM persists.

Selfishnes, putting myself first and being neglectful are the things that W fears will happen again.

I really do hope that these poisonous, delusional chemicals go away eventually but my expectations are still low to non-existent.

I think it's a miracle that we were separated for 4 months with very minimal contact, but using the contact that we did have I did my best. W's sister is getting married next weekend and I will be a groomsman. I have organsied future BIL's bachelor's party for tomorrow.

Very interesetd in getting some more input from you veterans.

I don't know if this will help but this is the time line of my A.

Feb - April 2002: kissing, touching

April - September 2002: intercourse (10 times)

September - June 2003: Sporadic contact and no touching

June 2003: The OM ended the A.

October 2003: D-day #1 with my BH

April 2006 for two weeks: Contact with OM but no touching

June 2006 D-day #2 with my BH

Our time line *yes rmx you can correct me if needed*

September 1998-- EA

October 1998 --- A turned to PA
D-Day

January 1999-- Left OM...NC

As you study adultery, you will find that:


A WS will rewrite their vision of their BS. And if the BS makes changes in their way of doing business as a result of the trauma, the WS will denigrate the changes. This is part of the rationalization process to justify the betrayal.

If you will google the various spellings of PEA, you can read for yourself and no longer be curious. Now that said, PEA can temporarily bloom again as in a High School reunion nobody in their right minds should attend. So it can in a marriage when both parties are educated in the process and invest in a periodic renewal of the infatuation.

Larry

Hi Larry,

You really appear to know your subject.

My W said in an email just after we separated I want this separation for now as my image of you has diminished. Do whatever you have to do to make yourself a great guy again because at the moment I don't see you that way.

Then every time we got together afterwards she was crying "reconciliation" and "it's destiny that we will get back together" etc. I also heard things like "don't go and date other girls, what if I want to come back to you in the future?" and "I frown upon you looking at divorce proceedings. It's typical of you to want to cover yourself". Unbelievable but true.

But, I was a nasty, selfish, neglectful and horrible person to live with with many many DJs, SDs and AOs. I fully take responsibility for making her vulnerable to an A but I find that the deception, lies, hypocrisy and cake-eating are getting harder and harder for me to live with.

I hope I can work this marriage out. I don't want to apply the lessons of this trauma with anyone else but her.

Any other comments on the lifecycle of an affair?

best,

GH31

Best way to terminate an affair is to shoot it in the head. By that I mean exposure within the guidelines, suddenly and completely. Read all of Harley's stuff, he is the man with the plan.

Your wife is cake eating. I would guess you have been here long enough to know what that means, especially if you have read all of Harley's stuff.

I dunno you from Adam. I would bet that you are not as nasty a person as you are laying out. Otherwise, you wouldn't be making whatever changes you are making; nasty is as nasty does.

All the best.

Larry

I just thought of a little more insight on this ~6 month infatuation cycle. Right now is about 6 months since FWW's infatuation began, from the best I can tell. (She marks Feb. 10 as the start of their relationship, their first date, but she was meeting him casually before then, and had all the earmarks of then being infatuated) Anyway, I've been carrying out Plan A since I found this site in March. While their PA ended in late April, they continued an EA on the phone, including during several false NC. But, just this past weekend, WW remarked on how much our relationship has improved during the past two weeks. Now, maybe I missed something, but I'm sure I've been acting the same way now as when I started plan A.

I'm only guessing, but it's my guess that while a WS is inebriated with the infatuation hormones, those hormones create a sort of filter against anything that would contradict WS's view or belief about her feelings toward OP. Any love deposits from BS are registered, but not really deposited, or at least are severely discounted. It is not until the infatuation subsides that the love deposits, past and present, are actually deposited in her love bank. Just a thought

So if there is a 6 month infatuation cycle that begins at "the beginning" of the A (as opposed to discovery), what is happening in A's that last longer than 6 months? What about the ones that last close to the 2 years? And the ones that excede that? I guess what I'm really asking is what is going on my WstbxH and OW right now? Even with the drama fueling their flames, they have to be way beyond the infatuation cycle.

Six months is a rule of thumb, not a hard and fast time period. It is that the betrayal of adultery can sometimes fuel a longer period of time, similar to the mistress culture of Europe, say France for example. Affairees keep themselves pumped up by lying to themselves, from my POV.

Affairs thrive in secrecy. Exposure can hasten a reality fix. And of course, in rare cases, oxytocin eventually overtakes the infatuation and real love sets in, unfortunately. I am not saying that is the case with your situation. I don't know enough to even comment.

Larry

If a BH is waiting for an affair to die off on its own, he is taking a bad strategy.

When the WW moves out she no longer has to hide her affair, no pressure to end it. It feels great, and no stress having to sneak arround.

When a WW knows that her BH is aware that she is banging another and does nothing to impede it she see's BH as weak and loses more of what little desire she still has for BH.

LTA, long term affair. With an unsuspecting BH or a BH that suspects an affair but will do nothing to confront the WW the affair continues for years. Why? the WW does not want to disrupt her childrens life. Give up the house, cars, BH's pension. Why should she? BH provides finacial and material needs. The OM provides her with great sex.

Trying to end an affair sooner is better because there will be less to forgive. Letting an affair go on, increase the chance that WW may leave BH. Or is WW comes back. It's with a STD, knocked up by the OM, or both.

I can see all that. But my Wstbx's and OW's A was exposed - first by OWH, then by me. They instantly moved in together (Wstbx actually told me that he had originally planned to JUST have an A but then he fell in love ). Upon moving in together, they proceed to expose themselves - presumably thinking that now that they are both away from their spouses, it was ok and people should get used to them. Pressure to end it was ignored. Even financial pressure (they burned through their settlements in a matter of weeks and had to cash out all their RRSP's) didn't deter them. So they made it through Plan A applied by both OWH and myself (admittedly mine was pretty bad when it came to eliminating LBs, though my exposure was good). The Hurleys even say exposure only ends A's 15% of the time.

So now they are in the open. They are also financially entangled with each other (share a mortgage among many other loans). I'm not sure what their legal status is - here 6 months cohabitation = common law, but since none of our divorces have gone through the system yet I really don't know if they are protected by the 50/50 thing or not. Probably they are. He has her listed on his life insurance as his wife - they didn't have a problem with that.

The A has probably been going on for 2 years as of this month but I don't know for sure. She was having an A with a different OM earlier in the year - Aug 06 was when we have the first evidence of an A between them. I suspect it was an EA at this time. I have no idea when it progressed to a PA. He began draining the bank account in Oct 06 - first concrete evidence of his planning to leave though there were a few things in between that suggest he was planning earlier. Feb 07 was when he snowjobbed his mother - prepping her for when he left me. He didn't say anything to me until OWH caught them and decided to throw OW out of the house (this was her second A that he knows of). So if anything, their plans got moved forward but that was all.

Despite the fact that the A continues, everything MB has said about A's has applied to them, how they behaved and what comes out of their mouths. I'm just waiting for the A to end now, but I think it will go past the 2 year mark.

FWIW, I'm not looking for recovery. I've moved on and I'm happier without him. But I'd still like to see the karma bus hit them.

Tabby1 your story sounds like mine except that OW was divorced has 3 teenage boys,I have 2.They have been together 19 months,moved in together straight away.OW worked with my WH.Last month WH was forced to resign and OW was forced to resign 3 months ago.WH was the boss,OW was a temp for the company.OW now has a job and WH has filed for divorce cos he wants half his money from house so he can start a business.WH has lost all friends and they "only have each other'.When I told him that only 5%of affairs he said "maybe I'm one of the 5%"
I don't think it will end.In the beginning WH was furious cos OW's EXH told me 2 weeks into affair.WH said he didn't expect the affair to go anywhere DUH!!
OW has tattoos and piercings so doesn't WH have a tattoo done at 45!!crazy behaviour all round including excessive drinking.WH now drinks red wine..my drink..he never touched wine before only beer!!OW drinks too...

Yikes Tabby, I am so sorry you are going through this.
This post made me think of 2 A's that I know of that went long term with different results.
The first one was my Husband's brother's wife and his sister's husband started a secret affair. (This was before I entered the picture) It all came to a head at his other brother's wedding (nice) when the WW asked my BIL for a divorce at the reception. One of my husband's other sister had "caught" them together around town but only told my MIL because she knew her brother and sister wouldn't believe her. So my MIL knew and my SIL knew but had no real proof other than SIL seeing them together around town. I forget how they finally got outed but WW filed first, then my SIL woke up and realized what was going on and filed also. At the time WW and BBIL had 3 boys ages 5,3 9months. WH and BSIL had a boy and girl ages 5&4. I entered the picture 4 years later. During those 4 years WH moved in with WW. I couldn't believe these 5 kids had to deal with this horrific mess all those years. Can you imagine going to see your Dad and his new girlfriend (AUNT!) at their house where your cousins live? SICK!!! The boy of my SIL would refuse to go in and his dad would be mad and tell him to stay in the car if he feels that way. A few years later (don't remember exactly when) WW had an affair on WH (shock) and kicked him out. This is when the whole thing hit WH and he came out of the fog. He has spent the past 10+ years trying to make ammends to his children, family and my BSIL. He makes sure he gives full credit to SIL for raising the children and thanks her all the time. Around the time he woke up my SIL was diagnosed with MS. She was doing well for about 5+ years then went down hill fast. When she couldn't be alone anymore HE got an appartment attached to the police station he works at so he could keep an eye on her when the kids were working. She was to call him day or night if she needed anything from him. She got so bad she needed 24 hour care so her daughter and her H (who had a newborn) wanted her to move in with them. Once again WBIL stepped in and found a place that would hold all of them. Daughter's Husband also has a son who is autistic. He had been trying to get custody of him from the mother who has issues. Her mom got custody and welcomed him to share it with her. They also found out my niece was expecting again. Now they needed another place with 4 bedrooms with one downstairs for my SIL. Guess who found that for them? WBIL is now a doting dad/grandpa and even comes over any time my niece needs someone to sit with her mom (his BW). There are people in the family that will never forgive him but his family (including my SIL) have. I have never met the man but I respect him for owning up to his mistakes and taking care of my SIL. When she gets overwhelmed by what he does for her (and he does a lot) he says "It's the least I can do after you raised two wonderful children for me. I can never repay you for all you have done for me."

The second was my sister's in-laws. My sister and BIL got married the same day the other couple did above. (weird huh?)
My dad noticed that my sister's FIL disappeared downstairs to a bar with a "workmate" but didn't say anything. While my sister and BIL were on their honeymoon her FIL dropped the bomb. He gave her MIL the whole WW babble and said he was in love with someone else. They went off into the sunset and eventually got married (gag) This strained the relationship with both his kids. He wasn't even invited to his daughter's wedding, my BIL gave her away. At this time sister's MIL was dating a creep none of us liked. Over the next 10 years both relationships ended and they were both single again. They met up at his Aunt's funeral and started talking. The fog was lifed on him and he tried to make amends. The kids welcomed him back into their lives and everyone got along. Then shock of shocks....they started dating! They got remarried about 8 years ago and they are like high school sweethearts now.

Both these stories tell me that WS can wake up from a fog even after a long A. I know it's not the norm but it does happen.

tabby

all marriages do not recover from an affair.

Exposure, doing a 180, and MB works the best to end affairs.

Even though an affair may end. The WS may never see the OP again. The marraige still ends up in divorce.

Doing a perfect plan A. Then a perfect plan B. Does not guarantee
success. Doing nothing guarantees failure.

Most affairs end. Most times when the WS and OP marry, the marriage does not last. Not every time.

There are no guarantees. Only odds. Probable out comes.

I agree with this TR - because it fits the alpha / beta male scenario.

Once the BH becomes the cuckold (aka beta male) it seems the WW will place alpha male above and in higher esteem even through R.

I quietly agree with Medc and MyRev responses to snap a foggy BH out of no action. An alpha male will compete against the interloper or if the situation requires it - push the WW into the OM arms by moving on. An alpha male will not tolerate the status quo.

An alpha male will stand up, beat his chest and chase the other male away or move on to find someone else for himself. He will not share his wife with another and seldom will tolerate Plan A for very long. I also believe that an alpha type male will perform a scorch earth policy in his fight against the OM. He would be willing to lose $$, home and everything to battle against the assault of his family.

An extreme alpha male OTOH will just assume allow the OM to be the cuckold and raise his kids. Not in favour of this - btw.

One thing I have learned in this situation is that whether we like it, admit it or not - we all have a need for a spouse's physical attractiveness. In truth - if you consider your self attractive or in good shape - you don't want to wake up next to a fat slob - this is true for either sex. Just look at diet, dental, personal hygiene ads in the media.

If a BH (incl BW) lets his body fall apart with the additional aging we have no control over it and become lazy in our appearance and how we publicly present ourselves, the BH and BW is setting himself for their spouse to lose any interest and look elsewhere.

In my situation, I am in late 40's but can still bench press my weight (200lbs). The one thing that does attract my spouse to me is that I am aging gracefully and look more distinguished older. She also understands now that I will be OK with or without her and we have been married close to 30 yrs. This was not always the case and I had to find myself again and assert my so-called 'alpha' male stature in the family. My sons basically alluded to this. I recall cologne and some clothes they bought for me.

My kids made me realize that during the course of career and the mundane life routine, I had become a bit sloppy, less energetic, and become out of date in the styles. My wife was being courted by much wealthier Dallas yuppie types. Before it went too long - it ended.