(((((KMS)))))

I know exactly what you mean-- the same thing happens to H and I. I know it is so very disheartening, I know how it crushes you. Did you see the post I wrote yesterday? I think its off the first page now. But my H also had a mini-melt down the night before (Wednesday night), and I know how those can throw you through a loop. Thursday I felt so down and dejected-- and wrote that thread "Just don't do it".

I think that when intro gets in those sorts of moods, instead of letting it affect you like that-- you almost need to do the opposite and be extra cheery, etc. Occasionally when I feel H drop off the bandwagon and his effort goes way down, I stop and I pick up his end too. I do both of our work, for that time period.

Its hard, yes. Even more hard when you feel so rejected. But doing 2x the work gives me something to focus on instead of feeling sorry for myself (not saying you are, but I know I have a tendency to throw myself pity parties when H falls off the bandwagon).

Think about it this way... during your A, when you weren't trying, intro picked up the slack and did 2x the work. Now, when he falls off the bandwagon, its YOUR turn-- almost like a challenge.

I know that sometimes my H also wants to be somewhat left alone when he's in those moods too. I'm not sure how intro is. Usually I try talking to him, if he's not on the bandwagon, then I stay cheery and talk to him anyways about my day, etc. Don't let it get to me (easier said than done, but it comes with practice too). Then I go and make dinner, or fix him a drink, whatever. Leave him alone for a bit. Sometimes if I'm all in his face, it just makes things worse. So I'm cheery, I talk for a bit, give him a hug, then I maybe fix him a drink, or do whatever to let him know I care, and wait for it to pass. They do. Sometimes I think re-hashing things when he's in these moods is more destructive than constructive and only perpetuates the mood.

And I know how much those "I don't want to try anymore" comments slice to the core. They are very difficult to hear. Don't try to "argue" with him or convince him otherwise when he says them though. Accept his feelings. I've taken to telling my H "I love you, and we're going to make it through this together, and I'm going to be at your side every step of the way". It acknowledges his feelings, without invalidating them or arguing with him.

It does get better KMS. Even though my H has still not committed "formally" we are definitely ahead of where we were a year ago. I think we could ahve been further if he was "on board" and working the MB plan... but I've gotta take what I can get, eh?

For our anniversary this year, my H wrote in the card that he got me that "I had become the wife he had always wanted".

THAT to me, says that I'm doing a good job, and it just takes TIME.

(((KMS))).

E.

Hi KMS,

I know the pain, the struggles you and Intro are just starting to going through.

The two of you have made some hard decisions to save your marriage. Decisions that, unfortunately, not enough make in an effort to recover there marriage. I hope the both of you recognize this. It can be very hard to make good decisions in such emotionally tough times. That is why it is critical one uses logic to guide them and not there emotions as our emotions swing dramatically from one extreme to the other.

These swings in emotions are what you are seeing from Intro. My W and I called it the roller coaster from hell. If you spend alot of time trying to understand this roller coaster it will be tough.

KMS, one thing I noticed about Intro struck a deep chord in me. It is his comments about triggers and the lies and how it leads to the next cycle on the roller coaster.

You also asked about triggers.

One of the big mistakes my W and I made in our recovery was in addressing the lies. It really slowed down our recovery. I hope you can imagine what goes through one's head after being lied to over and over as occurs in an A. It makes you question everything. In fact, you likely have no good foundation to really recover your marriage and the roller coaster starts its next cycle when one gets triggered. The roller coaster ride hurts. It hurts both of you.

KMS, at some point, you will need to tell him the whole truth. You will likely even try to tell the truth but in doing so likely not tell it all. For you, it will really hurt. He will see all the inconsistencies in your "truth" and likely challenge you. You may then become surprised at the depth of the deception that he feels. It will likely hurt. You may then let the truth out little by little. Intro will develop resentment if this is how it happens. Another thing to overcome and to reset your recovery.

Recovery isn't easy or for the faint of heart. The damage that has been done is severe, if it wasn't you likely would have meant little to Intro.

I encourage you to really think about how important openness and honesty is in your recovery. Think about your feelings. Think about how often you don't communicate when things make you happy or sad. The same for Intro. The lack of openness and honesty never lets one know the real us. Never a chance to adjust and to provide care. And especially when we are hurt. Who wants to be vulnerable so it feels like avoiding or lying is a better option.

But, you both will pay a price for this as well. Your pain will last alot longer.

TJD

After our second D-day I have been totally truthful.I have answered every question that he has asked me.I even offered to write everything down and then he could read it at his convienience,but he declined.He has also said that he is done not want to hear anymore aboutit,but I am always open to answer more questions if they come up.My life is a open book to him,cell phone,emails,bank statements,GPS.
As far as the resentment goes he told me last night that he resentents me for everything....what I did,our finances,no kids,etc etc. Tough one for me to swallow BUT I AM NOT THROWING IN THE TOWEL.ONE DAY AT A TIME!!!

The fact that your willing to do this is a good thing. You might want to do it anyways so if he ever did ask you, you'd have it ready for him if he ever asks.

I can understand why he might decline it, All BS'es experience the same pain, but handle it differently... Its like being asked "Do you want to know how you die?"

I didn't realize you were introverts wife.

Nice to meet ya!

RMX

Good idea, I think that I will write it all down anyways,even if he decides never to read it at least its there.


thanks KMS

He is hurting, KMS...and so that will come out in different ways at different times. This takes quite a bit of time to work through. My DH is still working through it and our D-Day was a year and a half ago. But it changes along the way and you just have to keep being patient (as they were with us when we were putting them through a living he11) and keep reassuring him that you are sorry and that you will be there for him for as long as it takes.

What are his top ENs?

KMS,

You did a lot of lying. It is likely that in the past your H's need for openness and honesty was much further down his list of EN's.

Now, he is disillusioned on who you are because of all the lying. He is trying to figure this out.

It is likely his need for honesty and openness is one of his top needs right now. Are you meeting it? How are you meeting it?

In addition to the lying he has a problem with your thoughtlessness related to the A. Your prioritizing of work, 3 week notice vs. 2 week notice, over his concern of potential contact with OM and additional pain for him. Your thoughtlessness and lack of care when he ran into the OM and the emotional reaction he had after this. Your thoughtlessness in not having the sensitivity to recognize that the SUV that you said "nice SUV" to H is very similar to the OM's SUV.

Tough situations indeed. A definite challenge for you. Thoughtfulness towards your H will help here. It requires openness and honesty on both your ends to get there. Is he communicating these issues to you. Are you becoming defensive or are you listening and showing care?

As you prove yourself he will come around and you can then both make progress on the next set of problems.

Resonance


Yes you are right,he is very hurting but I hope that in time it will fade.I am not expecting a miracale by any means...I know that it will take time and effort on my part.


ENs

1.openess and honesty

2.Admiration

3.SF

4.affection

5.RC

Well O&H is something you have said you are doing in every way possible right now. That has to be your way of life from now on and not just something you are doing now to facilitate recovery.

Admiration can be more than just words. You can leave little notes for him to let him know just how much you appreciate his efforts to forgive you. You can tell him all of the things that you see as his strengths...things you cherish about him.

SF is, well, SF! LOL! Buy some hot dudds and put some effort into this. I have seen many BHs here who wish their WWs would put as much thought into this area with them as they did with the OM. Ask him what he likes...do a fantasy of his. Every new memory you make beyond "doing the deed" will replace some of what he feels was lost during the A.

Affection is pretty easy, I think. Lots of hugs and kisses (and copping cheap feels...hehehe) throughout the day. Flirting and holding hands, etc.

RC takes some effort as well. Go further by asking him what he likes to do if you don't already know. I know my DH loves to go see movies...and we have done precious little of that since we have been together because I HATE going to the movies. But, we have seen more movies since the beginning of our recovery than we have prolly in all the years before...and I'm starting to like it! Pull him into something you like to do as well that maybe he hasn't really shown an interest in before. Trial and error here, but effort is what counts.

Just keep plugging away, and time will pass. Hang in there and don't lose faith!!

But, I don't believe Intro agrees with this.....

But, I don't believe Intro agrees with this.....


Why do you say this?

KMS,

I get it from this


and from what he complains about.

How defensive are you when he complains?

TJD,



Ok I understand.Before D-day 2 yes I was defensive and snotty when he asked me questions,I will admit.But I have been working on my tone of voice and not to get defensive when he does ask me anything.I have realized that I used to talk down to him as if he should already know the answer.Totally self absorbed.



Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I sometimes feel he expresses more on here than to me about how hes feeling.


KMS

KMS,

I wouldn't be surprised that he tells more here than he does to you.

It will be one of his challenges as well. I'm not sure if you can become interdependent without sharing information with each other.

In our recovery we BOTH found alot of instances where we would think and feel something but not communicate it to the other. In fact, when we really got in touch with our feelings and why things were happening and thought it through logically we learned how important the honesty lesson that Dr. Harley writes about. It will really allow you to adjust to each other and become compatible.

I think you are doing well.

I justed wanted you to know that my wife is now posting on MB. She has been learning leaps and bounds, I guess she wanted to find out what MB did to me to have such a drastic change in how I behave.

We were talking about you, then BK posted to her asking her for her story. She is currently working on a timeline of what went on during her A. You see I've only gotten bits and pieces and the pieces never fit because I didn't have all of them. My FWW thought that by withholding that information she was protecting me and herself. It was actually just a band-aid that got ripped off when a new detail would come out that didnt match what she stated happened prior.

I was rather jealous that you are willing to do this for your husband but my wife was never willing to. Its been like 8-10 years since this has happened and every new discovery is like someone restarted the clock. So when you write it down, be accurate, unload it all, so that way you never EVER have to remember what lie you told BH about the A when it was last asked.

Just be sure what he is asking for. If he doesnt want gory details, write the timeline without them, if he does, give them to him.

I had a RA, I have two versions of my timeline. I am not sure if my BW/FWW wants it or not, but its her right to know what her H (me) did to our marriage.

*** one with sexual details and one without ***

The only thing I am not sure about, is if i should give her my journal entries from that long ago to jog her memory.

They are accurate and documented because I didn't know if they would be needed for custody hearings of court evidence.

Thankfully they weren't needed for that.

Thank you for your posting KMS

Well last night I screwed up....I have been trying really hard to change my tone, not talk "snotty" etc,but last night I broke down and fell back to it.There is no frigging excuse for it.Intro was having a bad day,he was thinking about a incident where I embarassed him.He was saying some big LB things and as much as I tried for it not to bother me it did.{This was throughout the day via text}.He also stated that he was cancelling our next phone session with Jen b/c he is not ready to committ to it.{I have seen this and do understand,he cant bring himself to meet my ENs},however it brought me down..

Getting home last night I vented in my journal.My writing was snooty, and not understanding at all but I had to get it off my chest.Needless to say Intro read it{I have no problem in this}but last night probably wasnt the best time for him to first pick it up.It seemed with midset that he was in he picked it apart.I did get defensive...damn it I was doing so good I just hope that I didnt f@$* things up to bad......will keep on trying.

KMS

KMS--

I'm here, I've been reading that Intro's been having a really rough time.

Truthfully, the way he talks he could be my H-- its kinda funny. I would honestly start to think that it IS my H, until you appeared

I think Intro is a bit behind my H-- you guys are new to this. We've made some progress recently (that's not helping you right now, I'm sure, but I'm trying to show you that there is hope, it just takes a LOOONNNNGGG time).

My H says very similar things-- he used to ALL THE TIME. Now it is getting less frequent, and we only have major meltdowns occasionally where he tosses out the "he doesn't know if he wants this" and "doesn't know if he wants to try or if it is worth it" and he "can't meet my ENs".

I will write more later, I'm a bit busy at work right now, but just wanted to let you know that I'm here and reading. I wish you guys were closer, so I could take MY dog out for a walk with you when you needed to walk/talk! (with your dog... btw, what kind of dog do you have??)

And the journal thing. I am gonna say that it should be a rule that he can't read it-- UNLESS there is NO, NONE, ZIP, ZERO NADA "punishment" for your THOUGHTS. You need SOMEWHERE to vent. MB is my place. And sometimes i come here frustrated and "vent" things that I would never say to H's face, and I'm so frustrated and angry with him. But in a way that calms me down. I tried explaining to H when he first found a really frustrated post from me that I posted here when I was mad/upset/frustrated with him because it helped me to not LB TO HIM, which is what matters. I vented those feelings here, and I got feed back on them, calmed myself down, before I REACTED. I thought through what I wanted to do after I got the feelings out (and people here calmed me down and got me back on track).

Now, because you are both on MB, "venting' here is probably hard for you-- it could be seen as a LB. So, you need somewhere. And a personal journal is good for that.

I know it seems counterintuitive to the whole transparency thing to have a private journal, but maybe you could explain to him what I tried (and failed) to explain to my H? That you need somewhere to vent, to contemplate before you "react"-- and that your feelings may be actual LB at the time-- but venting them and thinking about them will help you to not LB. And that just because at the time you were frustrated/angry and wanted to LB doesn't mean that you feel that way ALL the time, or will even shortly afterwards.

So, maybe an agreement that your journal is off limits in terms of getting mad about your feelings. Feelings change, and your journal is your feelings AT THE MOMENT. That doesn't mean they'll be the same even when you are done writing. I know after venting here, I often feel much different than when I first started writing!

Let me ask you this-- did intro ever catch you writing about OM in your journal in the past? Is that why he reads it now?

You need a safe place to vent your feelings. I don't think it is fair for intro to get mad at you over feelings you are venting in your journal when you are frustrated (unless those are about OM). If there's no OM discussion in the journal, there's no reason to be mad about feelings at that moment, when you are stressed and frustrated.

I have some more thoughts about dealing with intro during times like this (ideas to share, what worked with my H, what didn't work, what made it worse, etc). He seems so much like my H in his reactions, its almost scary. You are just a solid 6 months behind... (the first 6 months were the PITS, btw... you aren't out of the woods yet, but it does get better!).

Don't cancel that appt. with Jen. If he doesn't want to talk to her, YOU TALK TO HER. Send the message that you are committed--- whether he is or not at that point in time. Plus she will be able to help you with this (she did help me with this!).

Its hard not to get defensive when they get like this KMS.

More to come after some lunch and mulling.

((((KMS)))))

E.

PS-- what part of the country are you in?? I'm in PA.

KMS,

It is good that you are starting to recognize what is happening. When you use your logic like this to truly understand what is happening within your marriage you really can begin to make progress.

One of the key items Dr. Harley addresses at the Marriage Builders Weekend is habits. Many of our automatics in life are our habits. He used a simple example to show us. He asked us all to fold our arms over our chests. Then he asked who put their right arms over there left and who put their left arms over their right. He then asked us to switch our arms when we folded them. It felt so unnatural. He explained that if we repeated this long enough that we could change our habit and begin to fold our unnatural arm over the other until it became our habit and felt natural and became natural and our new way of folding our arms over our chest.

By recognizing your defensiveness and acknowledging it you are starting to understand your habit and how that habit makes your H feel. When you care for your H you will take steps to change that habit. The important thing to remember, for both you and Intro, is that habits take time to change. Once you both understand the habit and share the efforts to change and are understanding you start developing a positive feedback loop. Right now, Intro is looking for something from you before he starts getting very involved with supporting this. He wants to trust you but he is smart enough to know that he can't. He wants to work with you, but, without some trust is smart enough to know that he needs to protect himself because you have shown you won't.

You had an opportunity last night. You could have helped your H take a step in building trust for you. Your habit got in the way of being able to show care for him. You will make progress if you keep working on it.

The same general thought process works for LB's as well. When H says something to you and you separate your defensive feelings of protecting yourself over things you did versus feelings that his LB's are making you feel, you begin to really get in touch with your feelings and why you feel that way. You will then be able to communicate back to him and he will have an ahaa moment.

I think getting through the defensiveness is a big first step. It will show him you care for him more than you care to defend/protect yourself from your past actions. Then you can move to the LB's if you want as your taker will want some fair resolution of his LB's, and I'm confident that like all of us he is doing his fair share. But, there is a time and place for the real heavy lifting to be done on this. You need to really begin to prove that you are indeed trustworthy.

KMS you need to check in and let us know what is going on.

Have you told intro the whole truth? I see there are some concerns that the whole truth hasn't come out yet (from intro).

KMS-- YOU NEED TO TELL HIM THE WHOLE TRUTH! NOW!

Every time he finds out something new it is going to be like another D-day and you are going to have to start from ground zero AGAIN. BTDT. Its not fun. TELL THE TRUTH... NOW! It is your ONLY chance.

And, please, tell me you aren't still in contact with OM!?

KMS, you need to come clean with intro-- NOW. Or you may never have a chance, EVER.

You aren't even IN recovery UNTIL intro knows what he's dealing with.

If you can't handle TELLING him, you need to write it all out. A time line. The WHOLE truth, no fudging or downplaying dates or events.

Hand it to him, and let him process it.

If you keep lying, your marriage will be over. Its not going to be the infidelity that ruined your M, its going to be YOUR LIES!

Check in KMS. I'm hoping this is a misunderstanding, but I'm wary... :eek:

What's going on?!

E.

KMS,

I'm telling you right now that your M is O-V-E-R (and I can't say that I blame intro) IF you don't go home RIGHT NOW (screw the job, you are QUITTING anyways!) and tell him the WHOLE TRUTH. NOW. No more LIES!

THE LIES ARE KILLING YOUR M.

I know how it feels to be embarrassed about what you did when you come out of the fog. And terrified that if what you "really" did gets out... your M is over. And to hide the real truth becuase you are afraid that your M will be over if it comes out.

BUT IM TELLING YOU NOW...

YOU ARE RISKING YOUR MARRIAGE MORE by CONTINUING TO LIE!

You will give your marriage the BEST chance to survive IF YOU TELL INTRO THE TRUTH. Even if its bad-- because he WILL find out. He's already snooping... he's a smart guy, he'll figure it out.

And the lies will end your M.

KMS, do the right thing. Tell him the truth. NOW. Before he has to figure it out on his own.

THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE.

KMS-- I can't help but say I'm disappointed. I believed in you, I wanted you and intro to work. I thought you were genuine.

I still think you are genuine, but I think you are SCARED and trying to protect yourself... by LYING.

SO STOP.

This is my LAST post to you until you come clean with intro.

This is ridiculous KMS.

Come CLEAN.

E. (banging her head on her desk, watching KMS go down in FLAMES...)