That statement you made is advice based on Dr. Harley's "words"....which you seem to think is a blanket statement. Jennifer and Steve do not seem to think so...so why do you?

When someone has stated that they want to recover, and you basically question why they are.....you are being rude, and inconsiderate.

It's called Marriage Building, not "Marriage Building...as long as you are a certain age, have kids, and have been married for a certain amount of time".

Respect BS's decision's...that's all I'm saying.

Sorry for T/J...I feel like I need to back myself up...and other "young, no kids" BS's out there from this disrespect.

Can you show me where it says that, MEDC? I'm being serious here.

I remember reading something that said "not all M should be saved" and that length of M and whether or not there were kids might influence how much "crap" the BS should put up with (at least that was how I interpreted it)-- IE, if there were kids and a long M, then maybe try HARDER to save the M, but not that if there weren't kids or a long M, than the M should be definitely scrapped. That was how I interpreted it. And that is what seemed to come across from Jennifer. That maybe you try HARDER, put up with a little more crap if you have kids or a long M, but not that every case where there isn't kids or a long M, you should just bail. That's too absolute, I think. And I think that is backed up by the sheer number of cases just that I know of that have called the Harleys and have received advice directly against yours in those cases.

And I assure you, I am not making this up just to argue with you-- it was never once implied or anything that because of the short M or no kids, we should just give up. Not even implied. At all. We could have been M for 30 years with 4 kids and I think Jennifer's advice would have been the same. She never even asked IF we wanted to save it. She just launched into HOW to save it. There was never any doubt of whether or not we could just because of length of M or no kids.

I just think that people that come here are vulnerable, and if a bunch of people that are considered "vets" jump on their thread right off the bat and tell them to D... that could be really detrimental. Especially if these people can't afford the luxury of calling the Harleys themselves like myself and intro.

In most cases, I agree with people can give their advice and the asker can either take it or leave it... but in the case where people are making their very first posts, and "vets" say give up, D now, move on... some of these people are vulnerable and hurting... and confused. And may not know that that may or may not be the Harley's opinion (it clearly wasn't in my case).

I just disagree with jumping on a new thread with a new person and tossing that out as the only advice-- especially if it appears to be coming from vets, and the Harleys have advised differently in certain cases. Maybe that should be a disclaimer? "I advise Ding if a short M and no kids, and the Harleys sometimes do too, but sometimes they don't and there's cases around here like that". I think I would have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is people asserting that all short M with no kids should D, and that is always the Harleys opinion.

That's simply not true, and there's many floating around here that can vouch for that. Its oversimplified.

E.

Once again, I am not at all concerned with your view of my posts.

Considering I'm not the only one who feels this way...maybe you should start.

Leave us do a bit of critical thinking.

The Harleys maintain this board for several reasons, one of which is that through moderation, it is a support group. This does not mean that in every case, every bit of advice given by the laymen here is according to what the Harleys would give because:

a) The Harleys are the professionals, the support group isn't.
b) Often, the Harleys can get information that is not provided in the posting style of the support group because of the immediate conversational interaction during a coaching session.

When in doubt, the support group generally follows the "guidelines" posted by the Harleys. This is the safe path to follow. As professionals, the Harleys know when and if to deviate from the standard advice model. And they do as their professional judgement dictates.

The Harleys provide specific coaching for a specific individual or couple. The support group is more generic with its responses, given the multitude of people and the diversity of those who so offer.

By all means, if the Harleys provide a plan, follow it. Coaching is what they do for a living.

Larry

you left out "young."

I don't recall anyone using the term always. I think the quote was "most cases."

As for the reference, I do not have the time to find it. It's here on the site and perhpas even in the video that is so frequently referenced.

Sorry Andrew. I didn't mean to T/J and will bow out now (but would be willing to continue the debate on another thread, MEDC, if you'd like to start one for this... I know there was one before and don't want to beat a dead horse though- and I don't think you nor I are going to change our minds... so if you want to just let it die, I'm OK with that too!).

I respect you for fighting for you M and for calling the Harleys and getting their advice directly.

Best wishes to you.

E.

again, a need to direct me.

Inrovert...I have been polite to you so I will say once again, that your opinion of what I post is of no concern to me. I will continue to post in a manner that provides MY best advice or observations(based on wha I have learned here)...based on what I believe to be true.

The question isn't about the advice, medc. It's about your time of delivery. The BS in this case has decided on recovery, and you should be leaving your (and Dr. Harley's) advice, regarding no kids, young, etc... on the sidelines since it is obviously counterproductive to the BS's recovery process.

I know "you don't care how I view your posts", and that's fine, but you need to let people make their own decisions.

Typically, BS's have not made a final "decision" nor do they make that decision alone in a vacuum...their WS CONTINUES to be foggy and she makes her own foggy decision which effect the marriage. Any such "decision" has to be revisited from time to time...LOGICALLY.

It's all a process and Dr. Harley's statements about "no kids...short marriages" is just another input in that decision making process.

I bet if a BH called MB and asked them to help him assess whether he should "try" anymore...Dr. Harley, Steve and Jennifer would bring this up. I do know they very often make an initial assesment of the bs's energy levels to determine how much fight they still have in them or if it's nearing Plan B time.

Mr. Wondering

first off...I DO NOT have the ability to make decisions for others, so this statement makes zero sense.


Next, this was only brought up today in response to the posters comments.

You seem to have a difficult time understanding that you do not control me. You keep telling me what I should or need to do. Seriously, who cares?

Fine, I can't control you....oh well.

Go ahead and disrespect people's decsions all you want...good for you. You win. I give up.

One other point about support groups. The diversity of advice is useful because of the diversity of the advised to. And the conflicts are often useful by encouraging those who need help to go to the professionals, namely the Harleys.

Anyone with a brain differs to what the Harleys say both in their guidelines and in their individual/couple coaching. When there is a seeming conflict, the direct coaching wins every time.

I have seen a couple of situations where the situation was hopeless. Yet at no time did I ever suggest that to the couple involved. I didn't believe this was my function for several reasons, not the least of which is that I am not a Harley. Others on here take a different POV, which I am not going to challenge because that isn't my function here.

Let me put it a different way. Exceptions make the rule; short marriage, no kids, affair, equals long term problems with success being the exception rather than the rule. This does NOT mean you shouldn't try, this means that success does not have as high a percentage as long term marriages with kids.

Larry

Good post Larry.

Now that andrew has selected the road to recovery, and he has been counselled to do so, maybe we can all stop the bickering and support him and his decisions by not questioning his desire to recover his marriage?...even if it is low percentage.

It might be ONE person's decidion to recover, but it takes two people to recover.

If my medical Dr. advised me to stop a certain treatment that he felt was NOT working, I would look for another Dr. that would do what I wanted.

Why would I continue to pay for something that I don't agree with?

Take your time and money somewhere else...if you want something else.

committed

Introvert...

Here is the thread where I gave Andrew advice....I think I was pretty respectful to him.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=152069&Number=2100016#Post2100016

Steve DID NOT give the advice to stop the recovery process. Hence, my point.

I think you handled that thread perfectly...not that you care what I think. Yes, you were respectful.

This thread is a whole other story. He is in recovery, has Steve's counselling to be advised by...let Steve take care of it.

My comments come from this part of your earlier comments on this thread...


It's their decision, and you and Dr. Harley both need to respect it.

It has nothing to do with having said it or not in this particular instance.

You suggest that he should accept what the BS wants to do...against his (the Dr.'s) better judgment.

Why pay someone to tell you what you want to hear?

That's money wasted if you don't intend to be open to something that you don't necessarily want...but might be best.

committed

Perhaps it is an issue with reading comprehension...I have no problem with Andrew handling this with Steve. As I said in my first post here...IF a person wants to work on their marriage, the Harley's will work with them. Merely stating what Dr. H has said on HIS site is not disrespectful in any way.

Get over yourself.