I do. To me it is the same as killing a newborn. It is a HUMAN life. There is no debating that.

I will be real clear here. Even without Christianity, I believed abortion to be wrong. It is murder. Premarital sex is NOT murder, not rape, not stealing...while it is wrong for a Christian....70% of the world is NOT Christian and I do not set their morality....good people can disagree on this. On murder, they cannot IMHO.

Abject apologies, have gone back the required 5 pages and saw how the topic changed.

So we're looking at whether or not there is an absolute moral law? Interesting.

I studied the Holocaust in college and wrote my thesis on the question of morality in the concentration camps during the second world war. I looked at who is MORE culpable for their actions...is the bystander who knows that the Jews are going to their death but does nothing for fear of his own life just as responsible for their deaths as the soldier who ordered them sent there?

I came to the conclusion that the more choice you have in the matter, the more culpable you are. In the concentration camps, an amoral society was created, so culpability gave way to survival. In the world today, I think that it still stands true...the more choice you have (or perceive to have), the more culpable you are.

Now...before I'm attacked, I am open to other opinions and may end up changing my mind in the discussion...but that's what I ended up with after a year of personal study.

HTM

Jerry, I absolutely loved your post. I don't know why, but I did. I love this -



Bob. I didn't know that Sqid still had little ways about her that are not quite, but somewhat bordering on wayward. I didn't know that. It is in all sincerety that I say I hope one day she fully realizes her value and no longer needs the shallow ways of someone with low self-esteem. Because that is what it sounds like to me. Low self-esteem. And no one, not even you can fix that. She has to do that all by herself. By doing esteemable things. Whatever that is to her. I still like her though, she can be quite funny, but I realize your frustration.

JL, I disagree with your fathers assessment of the human race being motivated by fear and greed. I think we are motivated by either love or fear. The only two true emotions. Greed would be a spinoff of fear, I believe, as would hate.

Greed is of the corporate world, big pharma, medical insurance companies, big oil, etc, and the power greed of the political world, etc. I do not know in my own life of any truly greedy people. Only fearful people. And of those motivated by love or by a lack of love.

Anyway, I want to quote something that I read today that has some relevance on this thread -

"To every man there openeth a way,
And the high soul climbs the high way,
And the low soul climbs the low way,
And in between on the misty flats,
The rest drift to and fro,
But to every man there openeth
A high way and a low
And every man decideth
The way his soul shall go."

I do not believe for one second that after we know better, we would not do better. It is only ignorance that would allow us to take the low road, and having taken it, learned from it and repented, I do not believe we could ever take that road again.

And if we do, God have mercy on us. For we have chosen, eyes wide open, to deceive and to destroy. Those are the people I fear for and worry about. Yikes.

But to the rest of us, none of us would chose the low road, knowing what we know now. I don't care what boundaries are or are not in place. That was my point about the truly repentent.

Que?

It's hard for me to put into words what I am trying to convey. But I'll try. See, I think this thinking is dangerous, because it opens up for human error and wrongheaded opinions. It is YOUR opinion, and mine too, that abortion is wrong. It is also God's. But you said we can't use God's opinion since such a large percentage of the world does not believe in Him.

So all that leaves us with, MEDC, is an opinion. There are many many people who have an opinion that is diametrically opposed to ours. Their opinion is perfectly leagal. Who gets to decide, if we have to leave God out of it, if they are right or we are right?

That's why we MUST keep God in it.

And then you also have the fornication issue.

Think of this MEDC, we are both against adultery. But I can tell you due to having some unfortunate acquaintances, that some people think that swinging is NOT adultery and a perfectly acceptable lifestyle. Do you think they are ok too? I sure don't! Because I believe swinging DOES damage people.

And back full circle, SO DOES FORNICATION. I guess I am just shocked that you think fornication is acceptable for non-Christians or anyone else. It is so very damaging.

God knew what would hurt us. His laws are for EVERYONE. Does gravity affect only those who believe it? No, it is a law of God that affects all of mankind. If I believe in God (which I do!) I MUST believe that His ways were meant for everyone, no exceptions.

We can use it for Christian's. For non-Christian's....it is a waste of time.



It is for some and not for others. I know a lot of people that live happy, healthy lives that engage in premarital relations.

Are Allah's laws for everyone????? yes or no? I don't think so...no do I expect that a Muslim will believe as I do.



If that works for you , fine. I believe and feel it is supported by the scripture I cited that Christian's are bound by God's laws and that all will be judged by God.

I know a lot of seemingly healthy happy people who smoke too. But their lungs are being damaged whether they realize it or not.
And I believe that those fornicating are being damaged too.

I see that we are not going to agree with each other, so I'll quit beating the horse!

I have asked you numerous questions which you have ignored.

This is a very good thread.

OOPS, sorry! Which questions have I ignored? I'll look back and try to answer.

For what it's worth, coming from someone who has had premarital sex all her life (until now, I'm legal now, Yippeeee) I agree with you. It damaged me, and it damaged those that I was with and loved.

I have the highest hopes, and I speak to her of this often, that my daughter waits until she is married.

There is a sacredness to marriage, where sex is a celebration of marriage itself, and I believe that was and always will be it's intent.

I agree with you whole heartedly on this point.

My adult friends however, can do as they choose in this area. I know of the damage, but they apparently do not. And it is not my place to enlighten them, even if I could.

Here's the only one I see.

"Are Allah's laws for everyone????? yes or no? "

I believe that the ONLY laws that are for everyone, are those of God the Creator (the Trinity actually). By virtue of creating us, He is in charge. No other god has that disctinction.

Thanks for your input, Weaver!

well, hopefully Muslims don't decide to start holding you to their beliefs.

What were the other questions? I must be going blind. You said there were numerous ones.

FWIW, I don't believe I have the right to put to death or suicide bomb someone who disagrees with me on fornication or adultery.

your thoughts on this were not offered.

there's this.