If my beliefe in God offends my mind and my intellect I would not believe in God.

Good grief. That is a pretty odd belief system MEDC.

Next you'll be telling us we should check our brains at the door of the church before we enter. That really is some convoluted thinking.

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

I think what medoc's saying is logic alone will not allow one to believe in God. It's debatable whether logic alone would have allowed early man to believe in nature gods. However, people now have a better understanding of how this physical world works.

Belief doesn't reside in the intellect. It resides in the soul and in the gut, and possibly in the heart.

But once you believe in God, it's easy to love him with all your mind. The mind marvels at the the Divine Being, and may even do marvel at the idea of a Divine Being if the beleif isn't there. But once it is there, the mind really can focus on the enormity of greatness. It's overpowering and ecstatic.

On the other side of the ring is Satan. There is no proof Satan exists, but sometimes, we know in our gut that some evil this way comes, and we believe. But, we don't love Satan with our mind. Intellectually, no one sets out saying "Yeah, I want to follow Satan to the gates of Hell. That sounds like a brilliant idea." Unfortunately, some people's hearts get corrupted by excessive love of the impure, and they unwittingly tread the path to annihilation.

and your point is what. Since God has touched my heart, I AM able to love him with my mind. Without that touch...my heart would not allow me to see His truth. The Lord said this to be true in the quote that you posted. He repeatedly used the word "and" which suggests that NONE of them stand alone...and funny how he put HEART first.


http://www.royallaw.org/faq_bible_believe.html

your post makes zero sense BK. I NEVER said my belief in God offends my mind. Read the quote again. I said using ONLY my intellect would cause a problem. ONLY.

My thinking is right on. Your ability to read what I actually wrote (and not adding your own assumptions) is what caused your convoluted response.

Exactly. Thank you for taking the time to read what I actually wrote.

On a tangent, can I write Hades? And if I substitute Hades for H*ll will people understand? Just imagine if I tried to post Paradise Lost here!

When you said that you pray that others open their hearts...NOT THEIR MINDS...and be open to His still, small voice, it seemed to me as though you were excluding the importance of our minds in coming to the Lord.

The Lord says, "Come now, and let us REASON together..."

He appeals to our intellect through the written Word... "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

not at all. I pray for their heart to be opened because without that, a person cannot possibly see God's truth. The mind will follow.

medc, a point of clarification if you would, as your above response seemed to be incomplete and I'm still trying to "get my head around" not only your stance for a "changed heart" BEFORE anything else makes sense, but your stance given that position (which I happen to agree with, btw) as it relates to any "witnessing" for Christ to those who have not yet had such a "changed heart."

If telling people about Jesus and why they should consider surrendering their lives to Him "makes no sense" until after they have had a changed heart (at which point we are really talking about discipling, not acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior), what is your stance regardng any "evangelistic outreach," be it mission, "Billy Graham-like crusades," "altar calls" in church for people who might be unbelievers in attendance at a church service, etc.?

Why should any of those activities be undertaken if they are meaningless as a means "to reach the lost?"

I am glad you asked FH...I have been part of Billy Graham outreach programs through my church. After working at ground zero, I actually stayed up in NYC for three additional weeks doing just that. I would wander the streets close to ground zero late at night...it wasn't to hard to tell who was hurting and in need of a friend...an ear...God.

I did not appeal to people with "proof" of Christ and His deity. I appealed to their hearts by praying with and for them...by showing them compassion and love at a time when they most needed this. I appealed to their heart and witnessed in a way that might make them open to the Lord's call. Our pastor would call it helping to roll the stone away...not from their mind...but from their heart.


My pastor does not make altar calls based on a persons brain. I would suggest that attending the church in the first place suggests some type of call from the Lord. It did for me at the harvest Crusade. I was home on a Friday night....and felt the call to drive 45 minutes to the Philly Spectrum at which point I handed over my life to Christ. It was not the things I read or learned about before that...it was a call to my heart that brought me down. I think it is the same with altar calls.

and to add...the fools that would stand on the street corner and shout out their "proofs"...including MANY Christians...thumping their Bibles...shouting out Scripture that they felt explained the attacks...well, FH...they were ignored or laughed at....some were assaulted for their tactics. I have a distinct feeling as I have pointed out here at times that they help turn people away from God...not towards him.

here's a link to the type of work we were able to do up there.

http://www.calvarymagazine.org/PDF/Issue_9/new_york_911_iss9_01.pdf

Sounds very rewarding MEDC. I know you and the people you were serving must have been very blessed.

Just for the record, I believe it is a combination of heart and mind which leads one into a full faith in Christ.

The starting point may be different for different people, but ultimately they will grow into a strong faith which utilizes both knowledge and feeling.

I agree, Keep.

True conversion is a complex matter. It involves a full-orbed transformation of the heart and mind.

W/o a scriptural knowledge of one's depravity and Jesus Christ's redemption there can be no true conversion.

and


You might be surprised 2 learn that I know exactly what you mean.

A Christian friend recently said 2 me, while we were discussing religion and spiri2ality, "You may not have found Him, but he has found you."

I 2k that as a compliment.

-ol' 2long

MEDC, my respect level for you just went up a notch. My H believes the way you do. He says, people can "hear" or "analyze" the "good news" over and over again but it doesn't make a difference if their heart isn't touched. Your "actions" in New York spoke your heart (and God's heart) to those people. No telling how many lives you effected.

Thank you. It's funny, but I felt blessed to be there...and have made some wonderful friends as a result.

sounds like you have a wise and good friend there 2L....and he's right.

If someone get's "argued" into making a commitment, they will just as easily get "argued" out of it.

The whole concept of Christian apologetics is that we need to be ready to make a defense for the hope that is within us.

IF our beliefs are not credible then people will have closed minds towards the gospel. People with shallow faith are also easily swayed.

The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. But being a christian does not mean you have to kiss your brains goodbye.