lol, and boy can I relate!

My thought is I get the sense that you are very driven by justice, punishment, and right and wrong. Therefore, my question is, what sort of penance are you going to be satisfied with? I see posts on here where the A is 2 or 3 years over, yet the BS still drags the FWS over the coals every chance they get. I have to admit, I've been assuming you'll be one of those, based on your words and actions. Honestly, will you? If so, I'd spare the both of you the misery. Or at the very least, be honest with her about what hoops she will have to go through to mollify you.

I will be resentful.

The question for me is, I have had this beautiful wife I'm nuts about for 22 years. For about 20.5 years she has been in various stages of withdraw re: affection, sharing feelings, etc. I'm very verbal and she is very closed....it is just her genes, my kids are like that too.

Now, if somehow this shi..stuff broke through a wall and returned us to those first few years in terms of love, communications, etc? Yes,I could be happy with that.

However, it is also very possible that, since the driver here for her to return is the kids, in five years when they are in college she will just walk then. In fact, she says that sometimes about other people "staying together until the kids are out of the house"

So...is that what I want to live with? Plusses and minuses, at least it wouldn't be a Hiroshima bomb out of the blue like this....

Mike, if that truly IS the "sole" driver, then I'd tread very cautiously about reconciliation.

THAT is why I asked previously about your faith and her faith in Jesus Christ and just how important that faith is to each of you.

IF you prefer not to discuss that aspect of the recovery process, that is fine, but I must tell you that it was KEY to my wife's and my ability to recover our marriage. I do not think that we would have been successful, no matter how closely we adhered to the "Harley" method, without both the intervention of God and our submitting our wills to His will, even when we "didn't feel like it." Our marriage was "that far gone" when we began our first halting and hesitant steps toward recovery. In fact, there was a time JL told me to "forgetaboutit" and get ready for a divorce.

Humanistically speaking, he was probably right.

But as I wrote in my 2nd ever thread, "Miracles happen when you are obedient to God."

By the way, Mike, my wife and had been married for some 21 years when she BEGAN her 6 year long continuous affair. We have now been married for 33 years, with a MAJOR course deviation in there that took us "off course" for 6 years.

God bless.

Look, you say some good stuff but enough of the Jesus trip. I'm an atheist (closet), she is a serious Lutheran and we are talking with her pastor, but that isn't going to be what rides me into the sunset.

If that breaks us up fine, but I'm not going to feign religious faith.

Oddly, I went to Catholic school (that will knock the religion out of you) and I can quote circle around the rest of them in Scripture.

Now -- would getting more socially involved in church makes sense? Probably.

Mike, this may or may not apply to you, so if it doesn't, just discard the notion. But my husband is very verbal - VERRRRRY verbal. When we married 30 years ago, I was quiet, but not closed. Now, I'm so closed you couldn't pry me open with a shell shucker. Why? Because of my H's 'verbalness.'

He talks all the time, almost always about himself. If I try to say anything about me his eyes glaze over and he changes the subject, as if it's torture to listen to stuff about me. Also, when we DO talk about stuff, his way is the ONLY way. No one else can have as valid an opinion. And if I try to interject my differing opinion, I'm turning on him. kwim?

So I just quit talking. It's easier than continuously being shot down whenever I try to interject myself into his ongoing self-absorption and strong-headedness. The only way I can protect what ego I have left.

I'm not saying you ARE such a person, just giving you one example of two people with the same dynamics (verbal, non-verbal), and how it kind of resulted in the same relationship. If it were the case that you happened to be that way and not realize it, you can easily take steps to watch what you're doing and make it easier for her to learn to trust you and open up to you. If that's what you want.

Anyway, just throwing that out there, cos it struck a chord with me.

Mike, thanks for the clarification. My apology if it seemed like a "Jesus trip." I asked about it because you mentioned your wife's faith and the involvement of the pastor, etc., but never mentioned your own position vies a vie a belief system.

I understand that God may have no meaning for you personally, and you might not understand what I am about to say, but the "remorse" you are looking for from your wife BEGINS with her realization that adultery is first and foremost a sin against God. When she repents of that TO God and seeks His forgiveness is when you will begin to see some of that repentance that you are looking for.

Personally I'm not sure what good it will do for you to be speaking to her pastor, as you "speak different languages," but it's a good thing that your wife is speaking with the pastor because for her, humble obedience TO God should be foremost in her desires if she loves the Lord.

Consider the "MB" plans and concepts, as they will provide a framework on which recovery, if that is what you choose, can be built.

I don't think I have verbal diarrhea, but I probably use my rapier wit on her too much. She can be a little naive and I tease her, which I'm sure is a lovebuster.

She was probably the rocket scientist in her affair...

Actually, she isn't speaking with the pastor, I am.

In fact, she quit some church committees and such on D-day, so there is some shame there somewhere. She has said she wanted both of us to sit down with him, but with the divorce/withdrawal/reconciliation merry-go-round I have been unable to decide if I want to hear whatever defense is going to be thrown up while she is still fogged.

I tried to call him over the weekend to call her and talk.

When I'm not plotting her murder, I am worried that I, er, she nuked her entire world with this -- job, church, lover, husband, kids, cousins, sister, mother.....

JL, check your email.

quote=Just Learning]Mike,


You want to see remorse??? I understand that feeling and I have to say I would want to see it as well. But let's do a little SAT test.

1. Would you rather your W love you, than show remorse?

2. Would you rather your W be faithful to you, than show remorse?

3. Would you rather your W support you emotionally, than show remorse?

4. 20 years from now would you rather your W love you fiercely, than show remorse?

I hope you see my point.

She has a lot of thinking to do. If you can keep from having outbursts (although I am not sure I could), then home is better. She needs quiet and she needs counseling, and she needs time to think. Actually so do you.

She is coming out of an affair with a man she THINKS she loves. She KNOWs she messed up big time and hurt many many people.
She also knows that you have put in effort on this marriage and that knowledge will come to the fore AFTER she gets out of the fog and her justifications begin to fall by the way side.

She needs time to find these things that she has surpressed to have the affair.

You also need time and quiet to think about yourself. You need time to make decisions about your future. You statements about how the in-laws will view you may or may not be correct. Does it really matter to you. MyRev, suggests that a real man, gives them 15 minutes to make up their minds and then it is off to the races. It worked for him. It may not work for you.

I think a real man plays to win. Win is defined by the man, his family, his friends, his clergy. You need to decide what a win is. Take the time to calm down and really talk to all of them. Not that they control your life, but they may have some good insights for you given that they know your W as well.

Mike I want you to win, but you have not defined that for me. I know that K has clearly said you have an opportunity to win your marriage back. You have an opportunity to finally have a good marriage with a W that is not withdrawn. You have to define win for us, and more importantly for yourself.

Finally, you constantly refer to your W's physical beauty. Clearly that is a need of yours but is it the major need. If she were in a terrible accident would you leave her? What is it you really need in a life companion? What is it that you need to help you go through life? I think it is time for some contemplation of your own. You have worked on this marriage consciously for a long time. But, have you really figured out what it is you NEED.

I love this quote and I am going to use it for a reason . You are an adult.


I offer this to you, to remind you to decide what you really need, is it beauty? or is it other things and what is your ranking. I know this will change with time, but you cannot make a plan without a goal.

If divorce is your goal, no one can fault you. If you are not sure, then don't divorce.

Mike hang in there. You need to make the best decision you can. You need more data about yourself, and about your W's real intentions now.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Dang it I got a phone call in the middle of this. My point is "banishment" is not good, but under what conditions can both of you get on your emotional feet best. Oddly, this is something you should POJA. I know you want to feel you have control of this situation, and you do...you can leave it anytime. However, if you want to end up with as little baggage as possible, then make the decision based on the ability for the both of you to be "quiet" internally so that you can think. That is my thinking [/quote]

Mike - if it was me (and it was) I wouldn't care WHY your wife decides to return - for the kids, because she's afraid, because OM is no longer available - sure NOT ideal reasons but so what!

The ONLY thing that matters is that she maintains NC with OM and commits to the marriage and following a plan for recovery.

If you rebuild love in your marriage, all the "reasons" will be moot. If you follow the MB program, you will both fall back in-love.

I don't know. If it were me, it would matter a lot in the long run why my spouse returned. It would also matter a lot that for most of the marriage my spouse has been withdrawn, and that I'd applied the MB principles with little result.

I personally would need to know why she returned, and why this time efforts to fix the marriage would be more likely to succeed than before. A lot to ask, I know. Also, this isn't information one can discover overnight. Usually you need to actually be in MC and working toward saving the marriage before it becomes chrystal clear that the marriage is never going to be a happy one.

As an older child of divorce, I can tell you that divorcing when the kids are in college doesn't make it easier for the children. It just makes it easier for the parents. My life was still cut in half: Before my parents' divorce and after. I had to question my whole concept of what a marriage was supposed to be like. And, even though my parents were together until I was 21, the tension in the house was often horrible. The separation and divorce came as a relief.

Mike, be patient with yourself and the situation. It's hard to learn to sit still when you can't see a path forward. If you wait a bit, the path will start to emerge.

As far as the withdrawal, the reason I asked about whether he was the verbal, or more forceful or aggressive one - after watching him go after her with claws exposed, is that if that is a continuous process in their marriage, she will likely STAY withdrawn even if she comes back, because being at the butt end of all that 'rapier wit' is a proven way to shut the other person down out of self-protection.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, to be so outspoken and sure of yourself, but if you're paired with someone who doesn't feel confident to defend herself, she'll just shut down. Is that what you would want in a relationship? It could just lead to another problem down the road.

Which is why I'm suggesting that Mike do some soul searching to ask himself if his 'method' of dealing with things could be a contributor to the problems. If he determines it's possible, and even if he doesn't take her back but for future relationships, it would behoove him to consider some self-reflection and possibly learning new, more empathetic ways of dealing with people.

And Mike, maybe that is part of the problem. It is NOT the pastor's responsibility to talk to your wife for YOU, it is his reponsibility to talk to her for God.

You likely (being a "closet" atheist) don't want him, or me, or anyone, to talk to YOU about God, but you want to "use" God in some way for your benefit?

YOU are responsible for talking to your wife for yourself. Don't try to shift this responsibility to someone else who is NOT married to her.

Thanks, Kahuna,

That seems to be the opinion among the varsity on email. That and with the fog you won't get a straight answer anyway.

Agreed. I would not want someone who returned to me merely because I was useful. I would want someone who really loved me, appreciated me, and valued me, not just the money and things I could provide.

It makes a world of difference why someone returns.

Mike,
I just wanted to drop by and let you know that you’ve been in my thoughts and I wish you the best with whatever decision you make about recovery or divorce. I hope you will take this time away from your WW to take care of yourself and take care of your kids. This is a great time, without having her there to constantly trigger you, to make a firm decision about your future and a plan to move forward. I would encourage you to take as much time as you need.

You expressed a concern about her reasons for wanting to reconcile. For many BH’s the reasons behind their WW’s decision to return to the marriage are not that important because it gives them a chance to implement a good plan A and help their WW through withdrawal and out of the fog. BUT, in your case, I think your WW’s reason for coming back is very important. You have already been using the MB principles for a number of years with no visible effect. You have already expended so much effort and emotional energy working on your marriage that I just don’t know if there’s enough “left in the tank” to work through weeks with a foggy WW who’s going through withdrawal and only with you for the kids. You will have to answer that question for yourself.

Again, please use this time away from her to really decide what you want to do. If you decide to go through with the divorce, everyone would certainly understand. Just remember that ultimately it will be better for your children if they can reconcile and have a relationship with their mother. I know they may think they hate her now, but what they really hate is what she has done to their family. The best thing you can do for your children is to help them learn to deal with their anger and reconcile with their mother even if you end up divorced.

If you decide to try to recover your marriage, this time apart is a great time for you to determine what your boundaries are and what you need from your wife to begin and continue recovery. I believe that you need to firmly establish those boundaries and expectations before you allow her back into the home. With all of the damage that has been done to you over the past 18 years of her unhappiness and through her affair, you probably only have enough energy left for one chance. You will need for her to come back home and be a full, 100% participant in recovery. If you’re like me, you will probably need to see her doing the bulk of the recovery work at some point since she is the one who chose to inflict all of this damage on you and your family.

Like I told you in an earlier thread, the first thing you have to do is make up your mind that you will recover and then decide what recovery will look like for you. It may mean a recovered and better marriage or it may mean a recovered, healthy, and divorced Mike.

Stay strong

Well...Update: Mikey pussies out.

I got the phone call this AM I think I needed from her. Bawling her eyes out, I'm her "strength" she never realized or appreciated it, can't survive without me, pleading to come home, anger at the "a-ho13" OM, bawling her eyes out, bawling her eyes out, she'll be a different person, realizes she has one shot, will do Harley counseling, bawling, bawling...

Oh, this was powerful for a very religious person -- "I know now I'll never get into heaven". Seriously. Damn. I'm glad I worship The Golden Calf, he's very forgiving.

I didn't have the heart to say no. Certainly gave me hope for an exit from withdrawal.

I told her we have to have a family meeting tonite and she has to make it right and open up to her feelings, etc

Frankly....I was starting to fear long term damage to her relationship with our kids, so probably time to consider that.

Rule is she sleeps in the basement, only comes up for filthy, degrading sex acts. heh. Bet that gets censored.

Well, the ride begins....I'm scheduling with Harley now....probably try Jennifer.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

I have a sick sense of satisfaction hearing that your wifey is crawling and sniveling.

Me, being the enlightende pessemist that I am, says she has realized that she tossed her meal ticket for someone who never really wanted her, only what she had.

Same scenario with my wifey, but mine was too ashamed to admit it and decided mutual nuking was more paletable.

I hope that you're still venting anger that you'd never act out but just in case you're serious.....

If this...
....then I agree with this:

LB - Probably not until Mike is really ready to actually forgive her and accept the promises inherent in forgiving someone.

Time will tell.

But his apparent "glee" in his "golden calf" statement and his lack of understanding what was being said in his wife's comment about "never getting into heaven" shows a marked lack of caring for his wife. But that's perhaps another issue for another day.

Right now Mike is still reeling from the emotional onslaught of adultery and is not that interested in his wife's feelings, much less her relationship with a God that Mike doesn't believe even exists.

A marriage of equals is the goal, but it will take time to see if this is achievable or if it will be a marriage of "master/slave" instead. That is, unless Mike decides that he really wants to be divorced and not build a recovered marriage.