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My pastor does not make altar calls based on a persons brain. I would suggest that attending the church in the first place suggests some type of call from the Lord. It did for me at the harvest Crusade. I was home on a Friday night....and felt the call to drive 45 minutes to the Philly Spectrum at which point I handed over my life to Christ. It was not the things I read or learned about before that...it was a call to my heart that brought me down. I think it is the same with altar calls.
What you are describing is what I've said for years, it is the thing called "regeneration" that originates with God that "softens" a heart and prepares it to actually HEAR the proofs and accept them, to CHOOSE to surrender to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
And that's where I think there seems to be the "rub" about proof in what you are saying. It is logical to assume, I would think, that WHAT is "informing your heart" (and a discussion of what the Bible means when that term is used might be a good way to attempt the clearing away of a possibly "too narrow" definition of "heart" that I hear coming from the way you using it), is important to the "response process" of a regenerated heart .
There is also another reason for the PROOF that is irrefutably true, and it is to "convict" those who will not accept even the proof. If you think it would be helpful, I could cite the relevant passage of Scripture concering this.
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I did not appeal to people with "proof" of Christ and His deity. I appealed to their hearts by praying with and for them...by showing them compassion and love at a time when they most needed this. I appealed to their heart and witnessed in a way that might make them open to the Lord's call. Our pastor would call it helping to roll the stone away...not from their mind...but from their heart.
Very good, medc. This is what I call "lifesytle evangelism." It is the working out of the truth in one's life, with concern for everyone, including those who are not believers...as in following the Second Greatest Commandment. In another way to look at it, the person may need to have the truth about the infection they have that will kill them if it is not treated, but until you do something that shows genuine concern for that person AS a "person created in the image of God." That would be like pulling someone from the rubble and stopping the bleeding, getting them some medical attention, instead of going straight to the "spiritual need" before admitting there is also a physcial need.
Wrapped up in this is also the idea that believers are not supposed to "judge" unbelievers, but are supposed to judge fellow people who claim to believe in Christ (1 Cor) when their actions and beliefs are contrary to God's clear proofs and revelations as recorded in the Bible.
If my beliefe in God offends my mind and my intellect I would not believe in God.
I love God. I love the definition of God that says "I am in you". I love the God that dwells within us.
That connects us to each other.
The God that is omnipresent, omnipotent, omni...what, everything?
I loved Jesus at a very young age, my earliest memory is of my love for Jesus, in fact. I was the child standing in the corner with my hands behind my back, being disciplined, and thinking that my hands had to be behind my back so I couldn't put them together in prayer. Heck I maybe wasn't even five yet, but this to me was the utmost in punishment, not being able to talk to Jesus. Until my mom told me that you didn't have to put your hands together to pray.
But then I grew up and I found out that I really wasn't a Christian at all, because I didn't believe what the Christians on this board believed. My mom was a Sunday school teacher for 20 something years and my dad had studied for the ministry, but I had never heard the things I have heard on this board, regarding what Christians believe.
And then I decided it was all a crock of chit.
And then life didn't seem so good.
But then my mind remembered. Not my heart, but my mind.
That I didn't have to define God the way others did.
I just had to remember that God is Love. God is the unity.
And I still love Jesus. Jesus, in his perfection, lets me know that God does exists.
And he exists, not only in our hearts, but in our minds. God is within us.
Without God, nothing would exist.
God IS Creation. And we by extension, are creators.
"creation leaves not it's source"
So, having God in your heart is not enough. Feelings don't change lives. Minds do. The belief must reach to your mind, or there is no point. It would not be life changing, should your faith live only in your heart. In feelings. It must be thought changing as well.
I am unable to externalize God, like some seem to do, because every time I view God as external, I stop believing. It is only when I believe in the internal definition, in the realm that all of us are creators, creators of our lives, co-creators of other's lives by our union...that God is real to me.
I am so thankful that my faith in God, and in creation, has been restored. Life can be so dark without that.
2long, yes, you are one who has absolutely internalized God. Our definitions may be more similar then what I first thought, when you said "God is the law"...I say, "God is creation, love, life itself". Kind of close.
The others are right that with some, all the evidence in the world will not make a difference. However, I don't believe that anyone should believe in anything without evidence. That makes not a lick of sense to me. If they will do that, then they will believe in anything. I have no interest in imaginary friends. I COULD NOT believe in something about which I had no evidence - faith would be impossible for me.
I don't believe in God because it makes me FEEL GOOD. In fact, sometimes it makes me feel VERY BAD. Knowledge of God ruins one's sin life. It's no fun to be bad when you know God.
I believe in Jesus Christ for the same reason I believe in Cuba. I have never been to Cuba but I have seen EVIDENCE and believe it exists. I did not personally witness the Wah of Nawthern Agression, but the evidence convinces me it occurred. On the other hand, I do not believe in Atlantis, UFO's, or that Elvis is alive. And I am unlikely to change that belief unless some compelling evidence is produced. I am not a blind faith person.
I have FAITH that Jesus Christ exists, I have FAITH that Cuba exists, I have FAITH that the Wah of Nawthern Agression occurred. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. But that faith is grounded in evidence, not in fantasy, not in wishful thinking, not in imagination. Imaginary friends are not my bag.
That is how it works for me. The evidence led me to the truth of God and led me to a decision to have FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I was not raised to believe this. I was raised by atheists, but the evidence did not support such a blind faith for me. I do not have the faith to be an atheist.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Knowledge of God ruins one's sin life. It's no fun to be bad when you know God.
Oh Mel, you so know God.
This ones for you, lil country fried chicca dee...
thankee hunny!! Yes, gettin religion ruint my fun, weaver!!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
The others are right that with some, all the evidence in the world will not make a difference. However, I don't believe that anyone should believe in anything without evidence. That makes not a lick of sense to me. If they will do that, then they will believe in anything. I have no interest in imaginary friends. I COULD NOT believe in something about which I had no evidence - faith would be impossible for me.
I don't believe in God because it makes me FEEL GOOD. In fact, sometimes it makes me feel VERY BAD. Knowledge of God ruins one's sin life. It's no fun to be bad when you know God.
I believe in Jesus Christ for the same reason I believe in Cuba. I have never been to Cuba but I have seen EVIDENCE and believe it exists. I did not personally witness the Wah of Nawthern Agression, but the evidence convinces me it occurred. On the other hand, I do not believe in Atlantis, UFO's, or that Elvis is alive. And I am unlikely to change that belief unless some compelling evidence is produced. I am not a blind faith person.
I have FAITH that Jesus Christ exists, I have FAITH that Cuba exists, I have FAITH that the Wah of Nawthern Agression occurred. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow. But that faith is grounded in evidence, not in fantasy, not in wishful thinking, not in imagination. Imaginary friends are not my bag.
That is how it works for me. The evidence led me to the truth of God and led me to a decision to have FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I was not raised to believe this. I was raised by atheists, but the evidence did not support such a blind faith for me. I do not have the faith to be an atheist.
Wonderful post. Thank you, Mel. This is what I needed to hear today. I believe in God, but was having a hard week and needed reminded.
I envy your clarity of thought and ability to articulate a complex subject matter w/ such simplicity.
Anyway, I just wanted to comment about this part...
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However, I don't believe that anyone should believe in anything without evidence. That makes not a lick of sense to me.
It didn't make sense to God either.
That's why when He gave man a new revelation (through His prophets) He also sent proof (miracle working powers as credentials) that the prophet was indeed bringing God's word.
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The others are right that with some, all the evidence in the world will not make a difference.
Yup. There were even folks who saw the parting of the Red Sea and ate bread from heaven and still didn't believe.
Agree Marsh. thanks for your kind words, KIR and Marsh.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
IMHO, without the heart one cannot see the "proof" of Christ. When the stone is rolled away from the heart, the case for God is clear.
One of my favorite Christian songs is...Open the eyes of my heart
If proof existed, IMO, there would be no need for faith.
There are a lot of very, very smart men/women...some of the greatest minds ever...that did not see the proof of God. Why? Was it their lack of intellect...or something else?
There are a lot of very, very smart men/women...some of the greatest minds ever...that did not see the proof of God. Why? Was it their lack of intellect...or something else?
Here is the critical difference to me, MEDC. I have faith that the sun will set in Texas tonight because I have REASON to believe this based on evidence. But if you told me that the sun would NEVER rise again, I could not have "faith" in the veracity of such a claim because there is no evidence. I would not believe you. That is the difference to me.
I CAN have faith in the former; I couldn't have faith in the latter. For me, faith is belief in things UNSEEN, not things UNKNOWN. Hope that clarifies.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Biblical faith is a strong belief based upon adequate evidence. In the New Testament, the noun “faith” (Greek, pistis) is defined as: “primarily firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing...used in the New Testament always of faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual” (Vine, 1940, 2:71). The verb “believe” (Greek, pisteuo) is defined as: “...to be persuaded of, and hence, to place confidence in, to trust...reliance upon, not mere credence” (Vine, 1940, 1:116). Thus, biblical faith is a conviction based upon evidence, and is “not mere credence.”The Bible does not recognize any such concept as a “leap of faith,” because biblical faith is always evidence- or knowledge-based. Peter urged Christians to be “ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15). This corresponds directly to what Kaufmann would call a cause for belief because “arguments have been offered in its support.”
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Genuine faith derives from facts presented to the mind and from which proper and correct deductions are then drawn (John 20:30,31).... There is no such thing as “blind” faith. Faith itself is possible only when reason recognizes the trustworthiness of the testimony which produces it (1994, 125[11]:2).
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In John 6:69, Peter said to the Lord: “And we have believed and knowthat thou art the Holy One of God.” Writing in 2 Timothy 1:12, Paul said “I know him whom I have believed.” The Samaritans told the woman who brought Christ to them, “Now we believe, not because of thy speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Savior of the world” (John 4:42).
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This evidence enlightens the intellect which then makes a volitional commitment not only possible (since I now know what to believe) but also rational (i.e., I know what to believe)! Thus, faith is a volitional commitment of an informed intellect! Knowledge without commitment is disbelief(John 8:30-46; 12:42,43; James 2:19); commitment without knowledge is irrationality! Neither is a genuine option for a Christian (1989, pp. 18-19, emp. in orig.).
The problem with using prophets as proof is that all the major religions have prophets, as well as some cults. Most major religions point to the others' prophets and call them "false prophets." Logically, based on evidence alone, how can you tell which prophets are the true prophets? I don't think you can.
The problem with using prophets as proof is that all the major religions have prophets, as well as some cults. Most major religions point to the others' prophets and call them "false prophets." Logically, based on evidence alone, how can you tell which prophets are the true prophets? I don't think you can.
It's not the prophets that are proofs.
It was the miracle working powers that they were given that gave them credentials. And proved that they were receiving messages from God.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Nah, that logic doesn't work if you define God as All Powerful, All Knowing and All Beneficient. If that's God "to know him is to love him." You'd be a follower. Assuming you used the word "believe" in the sense of "follow" "worship" etc.
I took a philosphy class, The Philosphy of Religion, my prof. suggested that all philosophy becomes semantics in the end. LOL.
Yep, it does when the question is a belief in the existence OF. No one ever suggested that we WORSHIP Cuba or view it as a diety, which is a different question entirely. While the outcome of the belief is different - an island is different from God obviously - the way we got there is the same, ie: the EVIDENCE.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Yes, gettin religion ruint my fun, weaver!! 
