3 days after D day, I said to my Mom:

"Maybe I was not a good enough wife?"

Mom said: "You have been better than good enough."

that was enough validation for me

--- my Mom was not in the habit of telling me pretty lies to protect me

I stopped blaming myself right that moment

Mom never bad-mouthed my WH - but she took any responsibility for H's decisions completely off my shoulder

She was wonderful

Pep

Hi TTH

Can you please tell me how you went about getting in touch with Steve Harley, and will he take individual spouses? Thanks.

I believe the phone number is posted here on this site.

I think it's under "Coaching Center"

They'll do individual and couples counseling with Steve or Jennifer. We did about 8 sessions with Steve. Might try Jennifer if we do it again.

Good luck.

Thank you.

Well Amen MEDC,

We all have weakeneses and failings. OTOH we said vows before god, that said we we will not fall into the temptation of sin, out of respect for our marital partner.

When that brakes down, so in turn, does the M.

The Q of rebuilding always falls upon the WS, and if they don't step up to the plate on that, there will be no recon, only tolerance, which will lead to disdane and hopelessness.

The "WHY" must be understood and expressed to the BS, or there will be nothing left but memories of times gone past.

JMHO

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry,

I know you've mentioned a few other books and such which you cite as being good for getting through this, for offering another perspective.

Can you share a bit?

Thank you, brother.

Glad to TTH,

Here's a list of my collection:

"Boudaries in marriage" by Cloud and Townsend

" Not just Friends" by Dr Shirlee Glass

" Forgiving the unforgivable" by David Stoop

" I forgive you" by Grace Kettlerman,MD and david Hazard

" Total forgiveness" by R.t. Kendall

" Surviving an Affair" By Dr Willard Harley

If you want them, let me know, as I'm seven years out, and these all yours if you want..

give me an adress in my profile and I'll box them them up and send hem along for nothing.

Good Luck

All blessings,
Jerry

Thank you for the kind and gracious offer, friend. It means more than you may think.

Was it you that mentioned "Torn Asunder"? I've not read this, but seem to remember someone quoting from it...

Again, thanks.

I'm going to need some help with forgiveness. I hope to God I can get there...

Yep, sorry about that,
I've got books all over my house and need to dig them out.

Yes, "Torn Assuder" was another great book by David Carder I believe.

The one book I have not read and intend to is "Private Lies" by Dr. Frank Pittman. Pittman is like the cardiologist that visits after you've had your heart attach. Dr. Harley, OTOH, is like the ER Dr. when you are first rolled into the ER while having a heart attach.

I love them both.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Would you mind sharing a bit about how you and your wife used these works to help?

How you got through understanding the "why" enough to get on to your recovery together?

I have always identified with your perspective, and could really use some right now.

I'm trying really hard, but it seems like something is missing.

I so want to start feeling closeness to my wife.

Thanks so much, Jerry.

Perhaps this sounds a little non committal, but I do think "waywardness" starts long before the A, but I also don't think people decide to have an A, long before they have one. I think of "waywardness" as a particular way of going about things, or getting things done, that can lead to many bad outcomes, one of which is an A.

Its not a perfect analogy, but I see a similar type of thing with a few of my friends that have declared bankruptcy. When you talk to them, they can't understand the mess they are in, and basically say "it just happened".

When they first use their credit, there is nothing wrong with it. They second time they do it, no problem. But somewhere along the way, it becomes a problem. But by then they will rationlize themselves deeper and deeper into a hole, all the while knowing it was wrong, but ultimately at each decision point choosing to go into more debt. Before they know it, they are bankrupt. No plan to become bankrupt, it just happened. If you press them on it, they will try to pick some magical point when the debt level went from manageable to unmanageable, and say that was the problem. But most of the time, the "problem" started long before that.

I realize some people just come on hard times, but for many the problem is they want something they can't afford and they want it right now and they have a way to get it (credit), and they will deal with paying for it later. If one has that kind of mindset, they will usually end up bankrupt, without ever having "decided" to become bankrupt.

So when a FWS says they just "fell into it", I react in different ways. For some of the better ones here, I think I understand what they are trying to convey. Its similar to the point above, but I think they get that their "mindset" was the problem.

But for others, I do get a little concerned that they are using it to deflect their responsibility. As an example, I think many WS's decided it was okay to lie to the their BS's. For most of them, I think they decided that long before the A started and I'm sure they decided to do it for a handful of reasons other than to facilitate an eventual A. (I'm sure there is the occassional outlier that never lied before the A, but I imagine it is rare). To me, that decision is "waywardness". The first time they lied, it was probably not a problem. Maybe not the second. But eventually, lying becomes "the way" to get what you want, and that creates a disaster. If that person concludes that they "fell" into the A, but doesn't realize that the decision to lie was a key "building block" of that fall, then I think they will have problems.

Excellent post rprynne. That's good stuff.

I both agree and disagree- at least in my sitch.

I agree wholeheartedly about the waywardness starts before the actual infidelity (even EA) starts. Mine did, you can bet the house on that. My wayward attitude started about 6 months before my A started.

By "wayward attitude"-- I mean that I started thinking very selfishly. I was miserable in my M (but what WS wasn't... and probably the BS too...). H traveled for work, and was gone Monday thru Friday each week... coming back late Friday and leaving Sunday afternoon each week. Well, that's a recipe for disaster to begin with, but his job was so demanding he was cranky and unavailable too-- plus he'd often go out in the evenings with his co-workers--and when he was home, all he wanted to do was relax and be left alone. He will admit that he emotionally neglected me during this time period and was pretty negligent of our M, and put his job in front of our M. Not an excuse for me to react with the same negligent attitude tho... which is what I did...

Eventually, I started to "take things into my own hands". I think my train of thought... literally... was "well, if he's not going to care about my happiness or take care of me-- then I'll make myself happy and I'll only take care of myself, because that's all he's doing is taking care of himself".

So I did.

Wow, two of us doing the whole "only looking out for myself, negligent attitude" the same time?? D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R. Huge fights.

I never, ever in a million years, when I decided I was gonna take care of myself over the M thought that would lead to an A. But I'm sure you can see how it did. It started with a friend at work that "made me happy"-- and well, didn't I deserve to be happy?!, and we all know where that proverbial slippery slope goes...

Where I disagree??

I WAS NOT a liar prior to the A. We all are in the A-- that's the only thing that keeps it alive. But, I can say that I didn't lie to my H prior to the A. In fact, when I started with my "wayward" attitude-- I told him about it. Flat out. Didn't seem to bother him at all (of course he didn't see where that was going at that time either. Probably was happy with my new attitude at the time because he thought I'd be complaining less to him...). And when I became friends with the OM... I told H. It was just once it went over the line into the full blown EA I started with the lying... up until then, I was not a liar.

And I'm not again now.

E.

TTH,

I will get back to you in depth about what has worked for me and my Fww later. Your Q's require quite a bit of reflection on my part, but I did not want you to think I was ignoring them.

Thanks for your patience,

All blessings,
Jerry

Thanks, Jerry.

Please don't feel obligated to share anything too personal or painful.

I truly appreciate your concern.

Peace be with you.

TTH

Excellent post!

In my FWW's case, for the most part she didn't lie outright - she just simply omitted certain details when talking to me about anything. By that means she convinced herself that she was being "honest" and "truthful", even in the midst of her A. One of her first comments to me post-disclosure was that she never lied to me!

It still amazes me that she managed to keep up the deception for two years. I still feel a bit stupid for not catching on until she disclosed that she no longer felt the same way about me, and then I started seeing the signs - her confession followed a week later.

Omissions are, IMHO, outright lies. She NEVER convinced herself that she was being honest...she has just convinced YOU that is how she viewed things. It is similar to how she has convinced you that she just didn't think to tell you about her new hire.

I would be very careful giving a WS or FWS this kind of credit.

They lie and they know it. You were not stupid...she was just a good liar. Sadly, it is an acquired skill that can follow them the rest of their lives.

Completely agree!

MiM, I hate to be a wet blanket on your recovering(?) marriage, but I am concerned for you. You seem so badly to want to believe the best of your W and give her the benefit of the doubt. That is commendable in a healthy marriage, but when you are dealing with someone who still has lingering remnants of a wayward mindset, it is extremely dangerous! It bothers me that you almost seem more willing to question your own perception, than W's integrity.

MIM,

Don't dispair, my WH told me the same things.... :RollieEyes:

As if omission makes it all hones. My counselor called him on that one....she calls it the "lie of ommission".

not2fun

EDITED TO ADD....

WS pull the ol' "what they (BS) don't know won't hurt them" crappola.....