Got it. What a mess. And I understand why son was mad. I don't think I would want to be around after a DNA test on the new baby.

Larry

:MrEEk:

In my last post I mentioned I was going to talk to my wife concerning the wonderful suggestions and observations you all had given me.

Just Learning, I visited at length what commitment meant to each of us and our hope for the future. We are basically on the same page I believe. I want a future with her based on absolute truth and honesty and that meets both of our needs. I expect her to communicate to me in a healthy way if she feels I am not meeting my responsibilities in the marriage and I will do the same for her.

I also want each of us to have a desire to work toward a marriage that is first of all PERMANENT!!! I want her to know that any actions that we take will reflect on us FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES!!! Therefore TAKE CARE OF THE MARRIAGE because it will be staring us in the face for the rest of our lives. I also told her I expect her to not carry the past horrible events (on both of our parts) into our tommorrows.

I want her to feel forgiven and I want her to forgive me my shortcomings in not being a better husband. That is what commitment means to me and she said that was exactly what she is hoping for also.

johnstwin, Thank you for your very personal feelings about the children. I agree that they are indeed mine regardless of what DNA they carry. I am hopeful they are indeed mine because of my wife's willingness to have them tested and even to pay for it herself. I also agree that my dad does see my brother as the needy one. He knows he will fail without Dad providing the training wheels for him the rest of his life. I shared with my wife the reminder that her feeling unforgiven is not in agreement with scripture that no sin is too great for his forgiveness.

Larry, Your situation is so similar to mine. I am so sorry that you have had to go through such a horrible ordeal.I agree that my father is the biggest obstacle in our recovery. He does enable my brother in how he does business. My brother has never been made to face his actions and their consequences. He would not continue doing them if he had been allowed to fall on his face from his actions.

In regard to blood being thicker than water I think you are probably right about her feeling I would choose blood relatives over her. I think she was amazed that I didn't abandon her. I need to make sure she knows the reasons I didn't.

bigkahuna, You are right that this is not rocket science. I do need to terminate the idea that my brother and I could ever be together again. The hard part for me is trying to save my father from holding onto my brother's hand and winding up being flushed down the toilet with my brother. I need to make my father understand that even if I ever was able to forgive my brother it DOES NOT mean there would be reconciliation or restoration of the family relationship.

Lousygolfer, You are correct that my wife is working with me to restore our marriage. I am so fortunate to have her WANTING a better marriage and not just existing in it waiting for it to destroy itself. We do have the ability to either attend or not attend family functions if my brother will be there. Would it work to split the day on the major holidays when we will be at other family members homes? How do I tell Dad he will HAVE TO tell my brother he will have to either come or leave at a certain time. My dad has been telling us that it will start at a certain time and then we are faced with having to tell him we can't come because my brother will be there. I guess I will just have to tell him that it will be that way or we just can't come...

Ragamuffin, Will you be my Mom????? Seriously you are the best!!! If more parents could see things as clearly there would be far less misery and pain due to adultery. I may take you up on talking to my Dad if he still doesn't get it. He may not like what you say but I and my wife sure would!!!

If anyone has some more ideas on how to excise the cancer(my brother) without killing the patient (my family)I would love to hear them. Also if anyone else is in a similar situation that would share their feelings I would love to hear from them. Thank you all and God bless each of you.

Unfortunately. . .


Can't be done by you. You are not the one who decided and made the choices. Both your brother and your father made their choices; so did your wife.

At this time, you have decided that the family is your wife. So long as your father makes the choices he is making, he thereby excludes himself from your family.

Where our situations are similar is;

My relative was and is a self important nit. He has never gotten the education to support his IQ. Thus, he lives in his own head without benefit of having enough there. He has been a wastral in times past as well as a drug addict. His grandparents picked him up and dusted him off at every turn, as did his mother until she got tired of it. Of course his mother is another story and as life has gone on, has become a less than worthy person in and of herself.

In other words, my relative is weak. So is yours. Why our respective wives would choose to have a sexual relationship with the cretins is a major mystery. I understand part of the story, but not all of it. My wife has attempted to explain how things happen and I guess I understand. The reality is that I don't, and I never will. Some mind games are beyond understanding.

I suppose that if women had the judgement we would like for them to have if we are to be married to them, then we would be expecting more than can be delivered.

I can tell you that during the affair, my wife had many, many second thoughts. She was well aware that she was pumping herself up to justify. She was well aware of the cretin's shortcomings. She says she was in a trap of her own making and simply didn't know how to exit. So she dug the hole deeper.

I guess that makes sense. What does your wife say? Presumably she is aware of what a louse she was screwing.

Larry

Larry, I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. My wife and I have to set our boundaries on what we will allow concerning our marriage and insist that they be honored. Whether my father adjusts his is up to him.

My brother is a life-long loser. He got a 15 or 16 year old girl pregnant and Dad more or less insisted that he marry her. More to save he and Mom the embarrassment than because they thought that marriage was the right course to follow. I always felt that he could support her and the child without marriage.

He then proceeded to have another child with her then divorce her. She was not emotionally capable of parenting the little girls and would up having a procession of horrible men in their lives. My brother then went into the military but couldn't hack it and begged his ex-wife to get custody so the military would release him early to care for the kids.

As soon as they did that he dumped the kids on my parents to raise and went out womanizing. My parents, my wife and I and my sister all helped raise the kids. Not him. They went to I believe 9 different schools (no kidding!) back and forth with their mother before the older daughter graduated. The younger child was killed in a car accident with her mother at the age of 16.

He has had numerous affairs on his current wife. He has beaten her and was charged with domestic violence. He actually came to my house drunk at 2 a.m. (after the affair with my wife had died but before she confessed) and told me how great the sex was with his lover and how he didn't know if he could go back to his wife as the sex was better with the lover and what should he do??? I told him to go home to his wife.

I did ask my wife why in the world she was attracted to him and she said very simply it was to hurt me and for the fun of the sex. She never thought of him as a possible husband. She said they commisserated being losers and had that in common. She also feels that that is probably why my brother had the affair with her also was because my parents had always bragged on me and thought I was successful. He felt that was a way to one up me by thinking every time my parents bragged on me "Yeah, but guess what? I'm screwing your wife!!!"

Interesting points. About the time that my wife decided to give in to the cretin's pursuit, she was at the point of realizing that she really was going to complete and graduate as an RN, BSN. She too had been told she was a loser at many points in her life. She made an observation recently that one reason for her affair might have been that she suddenly realized she was going to be a success for the first time in her life and therefore did what she could do to mess it up.

She almost succeeded. Hammerhead me decided that wasn't going to happen and I hauled her happy [censored] up and did what I had to do to make sure she could go forth and conquer. She did her part, without question. She worked her tail off. Now she is successful by any measure and a changed person because of it.

I don't think she likes her former self very much.

And yea, relative got even with me for things I had no idea I was guilty of doing. Losers do that, you know

Larry

Thanks Larry, You have the ability to share things from an unique viewpoint and it does all make sense. I do think our wives felt they were inadequate and losers and did want to feel superior to ANYONE and did achieve it with the low lifes they picked.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to deal with the fact that some of the family knows about the affair and some do not? How do I talk to the rest of the family about why I can or can't go to a wedding, family reunion etc. without asking if my brother will be there and if so what time?

My brother's wife during a heated argument with my brother told his daughter and his son with her of the affair in anger i.e. "Your father is such a terrible person he screwed his own brother's wife"!!! Now they know about the affair and my own children and most of the rest of the family do not.

They just know that there is no contact between the families however they feel that it is due to my brother being toxic in so many ways (beating his wife, womanizing, drinking, etc.) to everyone including his own wife and children that I do not allow my family anywhere near him.

My wife is terrified of this fact coming out and has begged me to not divulge it to them or anymore of the family since she has terminated the affair, has no contact and is doing everything I have asked for to rebuild the marriage. I think that the particular nature of the affair i.e. the kids mother having sex with their uncle is particularly painful now that she is no longer in the fog.

If she was still in the affair I would have no problem with further exposure however at this point she would feel that it was meant to hurt her and could make her pull back from me after the wonderful progress we have made. Any thoughts?

Well, I can only tell you what I have done. The only person in my wife's family who knows is her sister. Sister is a real piece of work who basically hates my guts for complex reasons that have everything to do with where she sees herself on the food chain pecking order of life and where I see her. I don't suffer fools easily and hypocrites are easy targets

Yea, I know, I should be ashamed. I am not.

Anyway, the kids have been told that relative did something that really made me and wife angry enough that we told him to go away and come back when he grew up. No questions will be answered from kids.

A likely story would be that brother likes to hit on women both physically and for sex purposes. While he is your brother, you also have a family that doesn't need contact with someone who is that out of control. That would be credible.

I do understand your wife's concern and I would be as protective of her as are you and for the same reason. That said, since my wife's sister knows, I believe it is possible that tons of other people also know since sister couldn't keep a secret in box under threat of death by boga boga, it seems to me. Thus if brother's kids know, the whole world will eventually. This can be mitigated by the above story, which would muddy the waters, I think.

Larry

Hmmmmmm. didn't look at it quite that way. Thanks, made sense.

Larry

Larry, I think the statement that you recommended I tell family members ("I have a brother that likes to hit on women both physically and for sex") is a very good answer to state to the rest of my family as to whether we will or will not be able to attend. I don't see anyone arguing that he is not a good role model for the children.

It can be further elaborated to members of the family that I will not expose my children to that kind of behaviour (domestic violence, womanizing, drinking) and that I would like their assistance in making sure that there is no contact between my family and him. That we would love to be there if he either will not be there or at a different time. They can be told that there is no problem if his children or wife attend, just not him.

I think that the biggest problem with events is going to be the events that are scheduled to be held at a certain time i.e. weddings, funerals etc. They are usually supposed to be one in a lifetime events (funerals still are anyway!!!) and you only get one chance to be there. The idea of missing a family members funeral and being there for the rest of the family because he will be there is not a very good feeling...

You cannot stop people from gossiping. You cannot be responsible for what others say. At the end of the day, your wife must accept the simple fact that affairs and adultery is truly the gift that keeps on giving. Adultery, especially with a family member, is one of those errors of judgement that will follow her, you and your family for the rest of your lives, period, accept it.

Recovery can and should be worn as a badge of honor.

Parse the events; some can be attended by you alone. Your wife and kids do not have to go to funerals.

In point of fact, I suspect your brother will run his mouth. This again, is the price paid. Over time, you can train your relatives where your boundaries are. It really doesn't matter if one or more know the true facts. It does matter how you handle the likely knowledge, namely with dignity and obvious protection of your wife and family. And SHE YOU!

There may even be an event that by its nature would require both you and your wife attend, such as the death of your dad, where you might even have to sit close to your so-called brother. In that case, your wife and other kids can sit in a different place.

It can be handled. It is going to be uncomfortable. There is no reset button and getting around the simple facts of the situation. It is what it is. But you can hold things to an absolute rock bottom MINIMUM and make sure that your wife knows that is exactly what you are going to do.

In all this hoha, I do have a couple of recommendations for your wife. First of all, she has to recognise that as a human being, she is worth more than what she did. She must believe that she can be a better person for the trauma she caused and thereby grow up to become a responsible adult. This can be a real growth opportunity for her to attain that status that all too few attain and that is the designation of "Grownup."

My second recommendation is to not live in fear. She made the choices and running from those choices, bad as they were, simply makes it worse. The attitude "I screwed up real bad and I am gonna live it down and grow," is the only out she has to mitigate the outcome and consequences. This is what I told my wife and was at least partly successful. I say partly because unfortunately, my wife has never been able to completely shake the ghosts of past mistakes from getting free rent in her brain.

She simply stuffs them and moves on. Ugh. Yet she has cleaned up some and I hope she continues to do so.

Grownups are not always proud of everything they have done to get where they are. Yet treating the consequences of choices as a learning experience and a renewed dedication to honor, dignity, ethics and family can go a looooooong way to the restoration of self esteem, or the attainment of same if never had.

Larry

I am trying to come up with a way to communicate to the rest of the family that we can not have contact with my brother without waiting til we are invited then having to cancel based on whether he will be attending or not. He also has been very passive - agressive about it by waiting until the last moment to let anyone know so that we have no time to plan for the event.

I am considering a letter to the heads of the family that would state in a general way that my brother is toxic not only to my family but others also and that we cannot attend gatherings that he will be attending. Would that be successful or would they take that as my family dictating to them who they can invite???

The general format I am considering goes something like the following. ANY suggestions on how it could be improved would be appreciated.

"We will no longer be able to attend get togethers where my brother _____ will be present.

His behaviour of violence against his wife, womanizing, drinking and treatment of his wife and son have made it impossible to allow contact with my family. He is toxic to all and his own family is suffering because of it. His sons' difficulties are a direct response to the treatment of his mother and himself.

We would love to continue to attend all gatherings where he will not be present or at a different time.

Thank you so much for your help and we look forward to seeing all of you. We are hopeful that in time and with God's help this situation will someday change. God bless our family."

End of letter.

Any ideas?

"We will no longer be able to attend get togethers where my brother _____ will be present.

The adulterous affair he and my wife conducted has made it impossible to allow contact with us. My wife and I are working to recover our marriage, and his presence is toxic to our efforts. Every time I see him, it is like stabbing a knife in my own just-healing wounds, and terribly hard for my wife, too. His own family is also suffering because of this.

We would love to continue to attend all gatherings where he will not be present, or at a different time. We would never dream of trying to dictate who you ought to invite, but only want you to understand why we will be so careful about coming to family events.

Thank you so much for your help and support, and we look forward to seeing all of you whenever possible. God bless our family."

As gently as it's possible to say something like this, your other letter is a cop-out.

The only hope you have of gaining your family's support in this is for them to understand the full gravity of the situation. That means exposing your wife's part in this, too, but that is one more result of the choices she made.

Get it out in the open.

Where in all of that is the TRUTH? Did you forget that part?

If I got a letter like that, I would dismiss it as gossip and slander.

I agree with Neaks letter 100%

Just state your own personal facts: you can not attend functions at the same time as him because of his betrayel of you and your family.

People can respect you takinga stand on behalf of your own family.

But saying that you are taking a stand becuase of the way he treats his own wife - most people would say that it was none of your business.

Your letter comes across as a cop out. You are hiding the truth.

Mel, I agree that the truth should be put in the letter. I do, however, think that the other facts should be included as well. I would bet that others in the family are accutely aware of this guys actions towards his family.

The main thrust of the letter should be, IMHO, the affair. The inclusion of the rest just shows that in addition to the affair, the guy is a total scum bag.

"The inclusion of the rest just shows that in addition to the affair, the guy is a total scum bag"

I agree. The wife that messed with him is a total scumbag also.

True....and yet how is it going to help Jim for you to say this?

It will help him see that is brother is not the only scumbag here. The wife made the decision to cheat also. She does not love him. If any of this is real....