All cheaters are scumbags, and yes, her betrayal was worse than most.

I still don't see that angry, hostile-to-FWS posts are going to help Jim get where he wants to go.

SURE!!! I'm a freak of parental nature!

From my DIL today:

Since, from what Jim has posted, *so far* it looks like we are dealing with a FWS.

ummmmmmmmm a FORMER WW is not a scumbag and I don't think Jim will appreciate us calling his wife that.

Jim:

I had to think about this one for a few days. Your wife lives in terror that her affair is going to see the light of day. I understand that. She is ashamed as well she should be. I understand that as well.

As a person who has lived and still lives, in the shoes you wear, I am torn. Your wife will grow and become a different person from this personal trauma she choose to visit on herself and her family. Well, I believe she will and leave it up to you to evaluate where she is as a person.

I don't think a letter is the answer unless you are going to expose her and what she did to the world. I don't think a letter delving into the sins of your brother, about which everyone is aware, is going to do anything but lead to exactly what you are trying to avoid, namely more exposure you don't want for the sake of your wife.

When I suggested that you simply state that you do not wish to expose your family to your brother and his problems, I didn't mean write a letter. I didn't mean going into the details that everyone associated with both of you are probably well aware.

Your extended family is well aware that your brother is capable of horrific personal behavior at the drop of a hat, lacks self control and is a thorough cretin. No reminders are needed. That your brother has gone passive/aggressive on the subject of being where you are forced to see him, means that he is still taking pride in "I screwed your wife." He thus reinforces his lack of honor, integrity and character.

Perhaps a half measure (which will irritate Mel) might do in that you can verbally state that your brother did something you do NOT want to discuss as an emotional attack on your family and well being to the point where you don't want to associate with him, period, end of discussion and NO, you will not relate the specifics for any number of reasons you consider good.

Welcome to the world of affairs, which are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

Larry

Jim:

One other thought I have and that is your wife might be persuaded that full disclosure might actually help her personal standing. In other words, there is probably a lot more gossip floating around than either of you know.

Living down a major transgression can be achieved through the display of personal courage, remorse and clean living, among other things, which include wearing the badge of recovery and disclosure of what happened to anyone and everyone, kinda like addicts do. I have posted on this subject in the past.

Larry

Larry, Thanks so much for the ideas. They gave us several ways to look at the situation. If you or anyone else has some more ideas they would certainly be welcome as this has become increasingly stressful for us the last few days.

We have gone over what seem to be the two most viable options available which are letting them know by letter or verbally and who should be told and who should not.

My wife has been extremely upset that the details of why we cannot be around my brother are going to come out anyway due to several family members knowing including the children of my brother.

She has been very moody and almost seemed to want to pick fights and quick to suggest that maybe we should just go our own ways. She finally broke down in tears and told me she is so afraid she will lose me.... After talking to her about it a little more she finally admitted that she is terrified of it coming out to our own children what had happened.

She lives in fear everyday that I will not be able to deal with the incredible stress and the fact that she will not only lose me but the children will know the reason why...

She and I talked more about the living in constant fear and she feels that perhaps just going ahead and disclosing to the kids is the right thing to do. She is also scared to death of their reaction. I am so afraid however that she may blame me for this decision later on.

I mentioned to her that the shock of the disclosure will not last nearly as long if it is accompanied by a statement of ownership of what she had done, that all people make mistakes and that she will not let this define who she is forever and that this is the right way to deal with a problem.

That it is more important for the children to see how an ADULT deals with their mistakes and how when you find yourself in a hole to stop digging and do whats right. ( I know, I know but I don't know how else to say it lol.)

I would certainly like to hear some pros and cons on disclosing to the children and what their reaction to their mother might be following. Two of our children are grown and out of the home, two are still in school. Thanks to all.

TELL THE CHILDREN, YES.

TELL THE RELATIVE, YES.

LET PEOPLE KNOW THE UGLY UNVARHNISHED TRUTH ***edit*****

Stella...

I could sure use your Do-this-here's-a-specific-list advice on my thread. I read your posts about how you solve your probs without having your H actually "talk" about it. I'm sorry I'm still struggling with the same old thing, but if you wanna pop in on my thread I'd greatly appreciate it...

Jim-

I am reminded of King David's adultery and his murder to cover it up. Once David was confronted and repented, God continued to call him and man after God's own heart.

God hasn't given up on your W any more than He gave up on David.
And His forgiveness is complete: "As far as the east is from the west, you have removed our transgressions from us." Ps 103:12

No surprises Jim. You said it just like I (we) have lived it. At this time, losing you would be your wife's ultimate nightmare as would having her kids think less of her.

I am going to say it again in a different way. The path to full recovery of self esteem comes from courage, it does not come from living in fear. Recovery can be worn like a badge of honor, the elevation of someone who has committed near the ultimate sin and then exposed, repented and became a better person through the adversity of bad choices.

This hits a chord of sympathy that is part of the core of most people, especially those who have a reason to love the sinner.

Your wife must look deep within herself to find the source of her decision to cave in to her weaknesses. She must acknowledge to herself, if nobody else, exactly why she made the choices she made, without excuses, without rationalization and without calculation or effort to protect what must be a very tattered self esteem. Then she has to change herself to become a different person. It is that simple and that complex.

Once she has done this, she will feel calm, rational and at peace with herself in time. She can regain her pride and sense of self worth because she will have conquered adversity at a level most people have not faced.

Her own recovery will make an impact on you, I promise.

So at the end of the day, by following this narrow path, it doesn't matter who knows what she did, so long as those same persons know what she is doing about it.

Larry

Jim,

May I make a few recommendations with regard to the children and telling them. First I have forgotten how old they are. Let me assume that they are teenage or at least 12 or older. Younger really won't understand many of the nuances of what I am about to suggest.

I would like to recommend that you sit down with your W and discuss what characteristics you would like your children to have when they grow up.

Then I would recommend ways for them to learn these lessons with the minimum cost to themselves but with maximum learning on their part.

Finally, I would then recommend that you and your W decide on a strategy that maximizes the postive lessons to be learned from this betrayal.

Should you white wash what has happened or your pain? No. Should yo white wash your W's embarrassment and sorry for what she did? No.

Just to start the ball rolling, I think children need to learn the following things.

1. There are consequences for bad decisions.

2. Forgiveness is something that should be extended to someone who has sought it in word and action.

3. Marriage is complex and needs to be nutured often in ways we never realize when we first marry.

4. You and your W value your marriage and your family and are doing your best to protect it and rebuild it.

I could go on, but I think you will get the idea and actually do better than I could have.

God Bless,

JL

Awesome Larry, and completely fits univerally with not just this WS but, with all.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jim

Perhaps my experience will help your wife. I'm am the daughter of a woman who kept the secret from her family for many years - and I witnessed the affair as a young toddler. Mom would always say I was imagining things if I tried to put the pieces together...

Finally I confronted her. I knew children don't imagine those kind of things. She finally told the truth.

I was relieved, EXCEPT for one huge thing - she had not taken the proper steps with her minister and this was EXCRUCIATING to me, as I knew it was a necessary step for her recovery.

I readily forgave my mother. But it broke my heart the burden she had carried for 20 years after the affair ended.

If you tell the children, tell them what you are doing to recover from it too - this will do more to put them at peace than probably anything else. On some level they already know.

Thank you all for the replies that you have given. It gives me a great deal of comfort knowing so many people are willing to take the time to help us with an extremely difficult situation. I have shared your ideas with her and she is very receptive to them.

Larry, I agree that she must acknowledge TO HERSELF FIRST the problems she was experiencing and correct them before she can ever feel like she is indeed a new better person that would never be capable of doing those things again.

I know that her feeling that the lack of self esteem that caused the affair being corrected would also assure her and give her confidence that she would not be vulnerable to it again because she has in fact asked me in the past "How do I know that I wouldn't do it again???"

Just Learning, I believe that the kids being shown that there are consequences for your actions by her confession would help the children to understand why our family is in such a mess. As it is they are so confused and do not understand any of it.

I also agree that it is a great chance to show them how you can be a better person after a terrible mistake by confessing and changing your life for the better by EARNING it rather than just having someone hand it to you on a silver platter by doing nothing.

Shinethrough, I think so too!!! Thank you.

KaylaAndy, Thank you for your personal story of what adultery and hiding it for so long does to a child. The burden my wife has carried for so long changed her completely and caused her (and all of us) so much pain...

I am hopeful she can see the need to unburden her heart by confession and let everyone see the wonderful person she is today and that I fell in love with years ago is indeed back. She has lived in fear for so long it will be a welcome change for her to start each day anew without worrying who will find out...

They will respect their mother MORE if she comes clean now (with you by her side) as opposed to finding out when they're adults. Don't think they didn't know something was off during that whole time. They did and do. Don't THEY wonder about the rift? I can almost guarantee you they know there's more to the story than what they're being told.

If they find out as adults, they just may turn their backs on their mom in resentment, afraid that whatever made her do it, might be in them too. Showing them how to forgive and recover early on will help them understand how a GOOD marriage works.

princessmeggy, Thanks for your for your reply. I agree that my children will hold her in much higher esteem for demonstrating to them how a mistake should be addressed and corrected rather than hiding from it in fear. All they know is that something is very wrong and the answers they have been getting do not seem to fit completely with what they have been told.

I read your story and it is incredible how far you and your husband have come. There seems to have been considerable resentment and entitlement present in your husband and for you to be able to overcome that much hurt gives us all hope!!!

Larry, Do you have any suggestions for ME on how to cope with the fact that I am going to have to attend some family business meetings at which I MUST be at and my brother will also be present??? I know you occasionally speak to your former family member and how difficult that must be for you... How in the world do you accomplish that without going to jail???

I absolutely hate the idea of breaking NC with him however it is either that or I have to watch my brother take my life away from me piece by piece. Is it ever possible that seeing me may touch some part of him that is still human??? That seeing me may actually make him remember that he has lost his only brother???

If anyone has any thoughts or ideas they would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and God bless.

Hi Jim-

This part of your post got my attention:


The first thought that popped into my head came from the TV show "It's me or the dog" on the Learning Channel. The trainer-a very proper British woman named Victoria (who arrives to train dogs in high heeled boots and perfect lipstick)-has a technique for barking dogs that I have been using on my Jack Russell. Simply turn to the side with arms folded and ignore the barking.

I think it might be a good response. Have as little interaction with him as possible. Address others instead of him. Avoid giving him any attention. This takes away any "power" he may have and you avoid getting riled up.

Since your brother is a bit of a "dog", it just might work.

Let me give it some thought. I have some ideas. Later on today

Larry

Jim:


My primary focus on my communications over the past three years has been to explain the lack of honor, integrity and morals with which he ran his life. He was very defensive at first, but as time went on, he began to exhibit some signs of humanity, with cracks that showed an inner core of self interest in preserving his view of how the world works, namely to his benefit.

Then as more time went on, he prostrated himself on the shaft of abject sorrow, admitting that he was dead wrong, explained his motives and apologized as best he could. He still showed some signs of holding back 2% of his tattered self esteem. He drops in little word tracks that indicate he wants more recovery than I am willing to give and certainly more than my wife will ever advance. She wants and will enforce, zero contact for life.

So I am not sure that our situations are exactly parallel.

I believe if it were me in your shoes, I would simply ignore him. If he attempts to force himself on you, I would walk away and do my best not to make a scene. If he forced you to say something, I believe I would use a very low but powerful voice and simply state, "You have shamed yourself, me and the family, get away from me and stay away from me for life. Is there something I just said you don't understand?" I have found the latter statement to be very powerful in expressing views.

If he persists, I would pick the largest and most aggressive relative in attendance and say to that person, "Get my cretin brother away from me by whatever means or I will be forced to hurt him."

Control your rage but stand your ground. This is going to run head on into your father's attitude, so you might want to clear that ground before it becomes an issue. A frank and open conversation with him as to the lack of reset buttons, over protection of brother helping create who he is and that you must for the sake of honor protect your family for the future as best you can; that you hate what happened, but that you had no part of the choices your brother or your wife's made.

I do recommend that you adopt memorized statements of your position. In the heat of discussion, you can sometimes forget the why and how you got to where you are and certain heated statements can poison a future that might be with your father and others while certain other statements will not. The idea is to put the burden on your brother.

For example, "He made his choices, forcing me to make mine. I have chosen to act with honor and dignity to protect my family from more of the poison." Say this in your own words.

Adopt the attitude that you have been forced to decide what to do based on choices what your brother and your wife have done in the past, that there is no reset button and by your brother's current attitude and conduct, are thus left with no other honorable choice but to cast him from your life, if not your heart.

See, you can forgive. But in that forgiveness, there is no obligation for reconciliation. In other words, for your father's benefit, which is the key to your situation, you can explain that you may love your brother as a brother should and you can honor your father's loyalty as a parent should, but you are under no obligation to clasp him to your chest so you can get fanged again.

"Dad, I cannot fault your loyalty to a son, him or me. And I understand and appreciate your situation fully. Please understand that it is not in me to take any more abuse from my brother. I cannot give him another chance to finish the destruction of my life that he started. And I don't really believe you want me to, or at least I hope you don't."

Guilt trip your dad to remind him that he has two sons and who started it. I would bet all I have that your dad is doing what he is doing out of guilt. Ok, then work it. It is your duty to your family and that includes your dad. He needs a reality check.

Larry