If you decide to expose WW. Then before exposing WW to family I would wait for the DNA test results.

How are you and OM/Bro connected business wise? Can you dissovle this agreement?

I want to say something here. My mother was married, had three children, then had an affair with her husband's brother...I was the result of that union. She divorced her husband and married my dad, and had another child, and they eventually adopted my oldest sister's child (she was injured in a car accident and couldn't take care of him).
The extended family cast us all out when the affair/divorce became known. It has deeply affected all of us.
My mother is now 86 and for as long as I remember she has been crazy. I believe guilt is what drove her over the edge. Her and my dad (I am told from my older sisters) were once deeply in love, but my memories are of her being a very unhappy woman, critical, self-absorbed, paranoid, and my dad, an alcoholic. My mother went on to become physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive to us children.
I grew up not knowing my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, even though we lived in the same town. My older sisters were not even invited to their own father's funeral, which I find despicable no matter how you look at it. They didn't get to go for visits with him and he never paid child support. To my dad's credit, he raised and supported all of us kids and treated us all as if we were his.
The affect all of this had on our lives was tremendous. I hope you show your father my post and let him know how vital it is that the kids continue to have him in their lives, but that it is, out of necessity, going to have to be separate and apart from his other son. That was a choice that your brother made when he first engaged in the affair. I must say, however, that your wife is no less culpable than he is...for what is closer, a brother, or a wife? Both are about as close as you can get and you should have been able to have expected better from BOTH of them. You cannot change the past, but neither can you ignore it. The children can get to know their cousins on their own when they are grown. That your brother has not owned responsibility for his actions is deplorable. It is imperative that your wife AND your brother not only accept responsibility for themselves, but learn to forgive themselves...for the resulting continuing guilt can do far more damage to them and to all of the children than you can imagine. My mother is the most pitiful human being I have ever met and no amount of reassurance on our parts makes any difference. She is, by the way, a "Christian", but she has rewrote history to make it more palatable for herself, so she has not accepted and forgiven herself as God has.
Someone in this family, PLEASE think of the children! I grew up thinking I was the "cause" for this family breach because my sisters told me they "used to go see grandma before I was born!" Let all of the kids know this is not their fault and try to figure out a way they can keep some of the family relationships that ARE positive.
I commend you and your wife for doing your best to build a good marriage after all you have been through, for that is what your children need from you the VERY MOST, extended family or not.

Wow, I would take offense to that if you knew me and said that! All women are not the same any more than all men are!

I would be afraid of this coming to light by some other means. It depends on the ages of your children but I think it needs to be broached with them in a sensitive way, and better from your wife than someone else. Their cousins know, what's to stop them from telling them at some point? I definitely understand your wife's feelings, but that is a consequence of what she chose. Your standing behind her and your protectiveness will go a long way in helping this whole situation.

I wholeheartedly agree with Larry here, we love and accept the whole of the person, rather than just looking at the one action. Your wife is much more than just what she did a few years ago.

I would not state the reasons you list as the REAL reason is actually something else, although everything he has done has contributed to this culmination. Those who know him probably already know a lot of what he's done anyway and can draw their own conclusions. It just seems deceptive to list a reason different from your real reason so I'd leave that blank. I think the letter is a good idea as it lets people know you still want to see them and it clearly states your terms. Otherwise, they could assume none of them are important to you, which isn't correct.

Having had a mother who did this, I can say honestly that NONE of us kids hated or judged her for it. My family did not handle things right, but we all tried very hard to understand what took place. Kids are pretty resilient! (BTW, I was five when I learned about it, and I did not learn from my mother, but from my older sisters, and not in the best way). She would be amazed how freeing it would be just to let it go and deal with it...there is nothing worse than what she has already lived through, and she is probably harder on herself than anyone else could be! How I hope and pray she can totally let go of the past as she is forgiven and doing all she can now to do the right thing.

Well said!

It should have read "Some" women.

See it is that "Some" guys put women on a pedestal because that is where a lot of guys place their moms.

Larry

The Road, Thank you for your thoughts on the DNA. I am hopeful that with the progress that has been made with my wife the entire truth will be known and that those results will not be an item of contention.

The family business I spoke of was usual family business such as wills, durable power of attorney, long term nursing care, those kinds of things. It is not an actual business. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks again!

Make the choice to invite selected people to your home for things and not to go to the other events unless your sister can assure you that he won't be there. See if she will be willing to find out and let you know, thus not involving anyone but her, someone who already knows and understands the situation. Keep it very low key, less do-or-die.

If it's a large family, chances are your not being there while he's there and vice versa is possibly less noticeable to others than to yourself.

You don't have to offer information. Too often, we feel like we have to explain ourselves. Not necessary. If someone has the courage to bring it up, you can always tell them that you and your brother are just very different people and are simply not that close anymore.

And if he comes without notice, just silently pack your things and head home. Let your sister know what the game plan is ahead of time and just remind her not to explain anything unnecessarily.

Also, arrive at the gatherings earlier to help with preparation and to give your kids a chance to visit.

Johnstwin, I think you make a very good point. My brother has been getting his way with his "acting out" for such a long time that he thrives on the attention. I agree that taking him out of the spotlight is a good way to respond to him. Thanks!

Larry, Thank you so much. I do think that I am going to have to talk some more with my father and just let him know what my boundaries are going to be especially as far as protecting my wife and family from my brother's interference.

I think that your examples of position statements is excellent and will come up with a wording that works for us. It is still very tense and it would be very easy to erupt in a barrage of words that would only inflame the situation... possibly beyond all hope with my father.

I think a reminder that this can be as good or as bad as we all make it is in order to my father. He does need to know that there will NEVER be contact between my wife and brother again and that all of his thoughts to the contrary is not going to change it. He also needs to know that (as you mentioned) I did not start this mess, all that I can do is to react to what has happened to protect my family. Thank you!!!

Vows4Good, Thank you so much for sharing your story. You have suffered so much as a result of your mother and fathers' actions. To not be bitter as a result is truly a credit to your spirit and strength. Your personal experience with this situation sheds a great deal of light on certain aspects that we need to make sure are addressed to the children.

I will indeed show my father your post and explain to him through you that there is a life ahead for all of us however my family and my brother must continue to be seperated for life because of what has occured.

I do wish my father could understand that everyones lives could be so much better if my brother would OWN what he has done, accept responsibility for it, confess and repent from it. That would take the ANGER out of it and allow forgiveness to begin. It would not, of course, lead to reconciliation however I do think everyone would then be able to relax a little and begin to enjoy the rest of their lives instead of everyday's focus being on the problems that have been created.

My hope is that my wife will see that EVERYONE is saying the same thing. That confession of this will unburden her soul and allow her to start living without fear. She is a wonderful person that made a terrible mistake. My greatest hope is that she will forgive herself as I have her and that she will forgive me for not being a better husband. We have both learned so much.
Thank you all!!!

Vows4Good:

Your story has touched my heart in part because my own family dodged that bullet, more or less. And there is additional information that I think will help Jim_Flint resolve his problem with his Dad.


This is how I think Dad might be approached in Jim's case.

See, both Jim and his brother are grown. As adults (more or less) they make choices which then have consequences. Some of those consequences have long term effects on the kids of both the brother and Jim. Yes, and Jim's wife was a less-than-adult part of the process whereby they got where they are.

But, there is NO reset button.

All of the adults have the power to make choices. Jim's brother can make choices to have an adulterous affair with Jim's wife, who in turn made the choice to participate. Jim's brother can fail to "Own" his choice, throwing it in Jim's face that he screwed Jim's wife. Jim's wife can "Own" her failure to protect her weaknesses and own up to her responsibility to make things as right as she can. Jim's brother makes things even worse with his implied attitude that it was Jim's wife who spread her legs and forced him to screw her. Yea, right. . .

The extended family of kids have no power. Choices are made for them. And like kids everywhere, they know that something very wrong is going on. And like kids everywhere, they look inside themselves to figure out if they had a role in the sordid mess.

And what about Grandpa? Well, he fights for everyone to accept his prodigal son on good terms and for the family to forgive and forget so they can all be happy. He is in effect asking for all and sundry to clasp the viper to their bosum and ignoring the poison fangs waiting to happen, because his unrepentant son likes being a jerk, a wife beater and all around bad example.

And who is hurt most by GrandPa's attitude? Yea, the grandkids. GrandPa wants everyone to be happy and get along. What he really means is that he wants to be happy, to heck with everyone else.

GrandPa has forgotten the most basic of life's lessons; you can't fix stupid. And his wayward son is clearly, stupid. Not only that, he is somewhat evil, narcissistic and a bad influence.

There are ways to make life as normal as possible for the kids, but it will take GrandPa going along to make it happen. But it looks like GrandPa is eat up with guilt or whatever, to the point where his own desires to protect his own feelings and those of his stupid son instead of honoring the honest obligations of his smart son, is gonna get in the way of protecting the true innocents in all of this, the children of the family.

Out of adversity, you look to see who is doing the right thing;

Jim is doing the right thing as best he can. Jim's wife will pay for her stupid for the rest of her life, yet she seems to be doing the right thing and live down the mess she helped create. I hope she will continue. In looking at this sordid family mess as I looked at my own, I identify the brother and HIS father as being the problem.

Jim's father and the GrandDad of the bunch needs to be both and not just the brother's enabler. Enabling brother to be who brother is, drills down to being the source of why brother continues to be unworthy of associating with decent people.

GrandPa needs a wake up call. Brother is beyond redemption. It is what it is.

Larry

I agree with you...I am afraid I wasn't clear enough with expressing my point of view...it would be great if Jim could get his father to see the light, so to speak, but if that's not possible, well so be it. They cannot allow his father to manipulate them into doing what they know cannot be...they cannot allow further contact with Jim's brother. Even if this A had not occurred, I'd have to ask why anyone would want him as a role model around their kids. This cannot be one big happy family and it has not been one big happy family.
But thank God the kids still get to grow up in their home with both of their parents modeling good behavior...none of us grew up in families without problems, but to see parents overcome and work through their problems, THAT is what we need to see demonstrated, for kids to learn how to grow up and do the same. And thank God Jim has his sister and her family that will still be Aunty and cousins, etc. to them. If it reaches the point where Jim's brother's kids taunt Jim's kids, it might be best to relocate...just a consideration.
I think Jim's wife will find once she has been completely open with all concerned, it will be a relief...and it will be more under her control how it comes out, rather than letting gossip define the outcome.
Being as they are two years into recovery, and with the attitudes they have, they have every excellent chance of making their marriage not only work, but stronger for having learned so much in the process.
I can't give enough kudos to Jim for his outlook, he is an amazing person.
And Larry, you have offered so much good advice here, Jim is lucky you found this thread and shared from your experience...it helps to have someone walk through something with you who understands and relates.

Vows:

I was thinking while putzing around with my chores this morning and I have a couple of thoughts to add to previous posts to Jim.


Thank you for the last remark. I hang around here and try to offer what I can. I don't shotgun advice. I am not qualified. But there are a few who I think would benefit from the Gawd awful happenings in my own life and what I learned. And what I observed my wife to learn.

My wife and I are pretty well recovered. It has been three years and to be frank, a lot of that recovery happened in the past year, the final push from 95% at two years to 99.9%. I will also say that some of the deepest recovery was in the past year as well, the examination demons that were getting free rent in both our heads.

Jim's family will NEVER be what it could have been. When the screwing starts, things change permanently. That is what it is and no recovery. BUT, with GrandPa's help, the family can be better than what it is now. Personally, I don't see how anyone of the family can stand to be around brother. I also don't understand why brother's wife hasn't bailed.

Larry

Larry, Thank you so much for your insight into this. There are so many things going on underneath the surface and you have a great way of deciphering it into understandable pieces. I think your personal experience really helps me to understand how it all fits together.

My father could make all of this so much easier for all concerned, particularly the grandchildren. My dad is still so wrapped up defending my brother that he misses everything else. I know it is his guilt however his coddling of him only makes it worse. My brother has never had to account for anything he has done and probably never will as long as Dad doesn't get it.

Since this whole thing started however I have noticed a change in the way I talk to my children and my attitude toward them. I am VERY involved in their attitudes toward life. We talk often about respect for their siblings and particularly about respect for the family. My sons have also been instructed in respect for women and my daughters in proper behaviour around men particularly how to establish boundaries and in respecting yourself.

I have even developed a new catch phrase "Do you know how long I am your father?" and they answer " I know, I know - FOREVER- Right Dad?"

It means that even when you guys (the kids) are grown I will still expect you to behave in a responsible way, or you will answer to me. That I am your father and I will teach you how to be a success at Life, not just how to be successful.

I seriously believe that if my father had been around when my brother was little he would have grown up with more respect for others. As it was he only developed a feeling of entitlement and selfishness.

Vows4Good, Your childhood has allowed you to witness first hand many of the same things that my family is going through. It is so helpful to hear from someone that has been there and what you would have wanted to hear from your parents.

You are soooooo correct in that it WAS NOT a happy family even before the affair between my wife and brother. My brother had carried resentment and jealousy toward me ever since he was a child. It became much worse after he impregnated the 15 year old girl and "had to get married" according to him. Poor baby, someone expected him to answer for something for the first time in his life.

After that his non stop string of bad choices and behaviour never stopped. I think that my Mom and Dad's telling him "Why can't you be more like Jim?" and "Why didn't you marry a nice girl like Jim's wife" started him looking for a way to "get even" with the result of the affair with his sister in law. Whenever my parents congratulated me on something my brother laughed and thought "Yeah, but guess what, I'm screwing his wife!!!"

He wasn't interested in bringing his behaviour up to decency, he just wanted to drag my wife down into the filth to have someone to tell each other that they were not really all that bad, just "misunderstood". :RollieEyes: It also had the added bonus of paying me back for being "successful" when he was not...

Bingo:


My best friend is a shrink for a living. He is totally convinced that the relative of mine was at least partly motivated by past imagined grievances. Relative says no. I think he is lying.

But there is a lesson to be learned by ALL!!!

Wife fell from grace and dropped down, way down to brother's level as my wife did with relative. She was very much a part of his so-called revenge on me, that backfired in his face.

Climbing up the tall pole of integrity, honor and sheer decency is a serious life lesson and one that can be passed on. Frankly, the climb is so dang hard, nobody wants to try it twice. And by climbing, you know how far you dropped down into the muck of human perversity and shameful conduct if you have the courage and help making the climb.

Larry