JF,
I recently heard a sermon that used an analogy of a mechanic with dirty hands shaking the hands of someone clean. He then went on to relate how clean seldom rubs off on dirty, but rather dirty on clean. With that analogy given, it gave us some thought to ponder. Your brother was "dirty" and he rubbed off on clean. That's how dirty people are. Fortunately your wife has a husband that is able to look beyond emotion and see what he wants to happen and put that ahead of feelings...I can only imagine how hard this is.
I am on my 4th marriage...my first I was married to for six miserable years, he physically, emotionally, and verbally abused me, he cheated on me more times than I can count, and I finally risked life and limb to get away from him, literally. My second was my kids' dad, we were married 23 years...we were good partners but were not intimate/loving/close. If only we had heard of MB we could have saved our marriage, it had very good potential. My 3rd marriage was to a wonderful husband and stepfather and we were extremely happy, but after less than 4 years of marriage, he suddenly died of a heart attack. My 4th husband I met while very vulnerable and grieving, and little did I know what marriage to him would be like...he has lied to me continually and cheated on me...I am trying to salvage the little there is but have very little to work with. I have learned a great deal, however, in the process, so at least nothing is a waste. I have developed a saying in life (my sisters and I were very close, as often happens in families of abuse): "husbands may come and go, but sisters are forever!" Us girls (five of us) are all very different, but we are very supportive of each other. I cannot imagine going through a betrayal such as yours at the hands of one of them. To me, there is nothing closer than a spouse, sibling, or child, and they should be valued and cherished. To be disregarded the way you have been by your brother is abominable. It is to your credit that you and your wife are working things out and I sincerely wish you the best as you successfully keep your family intact.

Larry and Vows4Good, Success!!! My wife has asked me to help her write a rough draft to use in telling the children of the affair!!!

It was the most wonderful feeling in the world to KNOW she wants to be whole again. The look on her face was the most serene and calm I have seen her in years. She tells me the thought of not having it hanging over her head will be a tremendous relief after all of these years.

An amazing thing happened in the store while we were shopping. She has been terrified of what the children's reaction may be to it and that has been causing her to pull back from telling them. Well, God had something in mind for us. Today while we were shopping we were met by my neice (brother's daughter) who knows about the affair. She went up and gave my wife the biggest hug and told her she LOVED her. We then talked for the longest time and I got to hold my great nephews for the first time in two years!!! What a fantastic feeling! My neice seems to have completely forgiven my wife for messing up the family and just wants to move ahead. It was a tremendous relief for my wife to know she doesn't "hate" her for helping to destroy the family.

My neice did say something very revealing... She said that if my brother had did it once and realized what a horrible mistake it was that would have been one thing... but to do it over and over is unforgiveable and she completely understands why my brother and my family can never be together. What a wonderful smart little mother she is.

She knows something about emotional pain. It was her little sister and her mother who were killed in a car wreck. She awoke on a ventilator to find her mother and sister dead and little brother was also on a ventilator. To have survived all of that and then be able to deal with this is a credit to a beautiful person in both mind and spirit and to God's grace.

I will let you all know how the progress with the confession is coming. Thanks again!!!

I would check with the Harley's before you tell the kids. As to whether to tell, what to tell, and how to tell.

The Road, Thank you for your reply. You state "whether to tell" as part of your suggestion in addition to contacting the Harley's as to what to tell and how to tell.

Would you share with me your feelings on any reasons that she would not want to confess with the overwhelming evidence and personal stories of why she should? I'm not saying they may not exist, I just haven't heard of them yet.

If there is something I have not understood about the reason for confession and unburdening one's soul to free itself in additon to all the benefits to the children and the rest of this tortured family I certainly think that now would be the time to know before she does confess.

Anyone's viewpoints would certainly be appreciated as once it's done it's done and we want to do it in the best way possible for everyone. Thank you all for your help. We couldn't have come this far without all of you.(Larry and Vows4Good you are at the top of our prayer list everyday. Thank you.) (One for me and one from my wife!)

Not an expert. That's why I said ask one.

However, one reason why a WS should not tell their spouse about their affair is that a clueless spouse will have to carry an unbelieveable amount of pain upon hearing that their spouse had SF with an OP.

The WS gets to dump their burden of guilt when they confess onto their BS. Why make it their spouses burden.

This is not to start a debate about exposure between adults.

When a WS exposes themselves to their children the result will be to make themselves feeling better while placing a huge burden on them.

Why would a child need to know?

They ask about the affair. Why is mom.....?

The affair is still on going and WW won't end it.

Explain why there is a plan B.

Tell why you are divorcing their mom.

These questions appear to need direct answers.
However a question as: Why don't you/we see uncle anymore?

That can be handled by uncle is not nice to us without further detail.

Jim:

If I was confused by theroad's reply to you, then I suspect you were as well. That said, I can think of one or two valid reasons to invest in one or several sessions with the Harleys.

The primary reason is to get advice and validation straight from those who coach for a living. A session with Steve or Jennifer is always a good thing, no harm, no foul.

Secondly, as well meaning as I am, and I am well meaning, I am by no means a professional.

When even a highly trained professional like a doctor makes a diagnosis, it never hurts to seek a second opinion. AND, I think you could get a session pretty quick before your wife and yourself loose your determination and courage.

I understand the cost to be in the range of $185 for an hour or more.

It is very likely or at least possible that one of the Harleys will come up with something completely overlooked, or a path undiscovered. I think it is a good idea.

After you schedule an appointment, you should sit down and outline a brief description of your situation and a point by point brief synopsis of what you want to do and what you seek from them, and why.

Larry

Angels appear when we least expect it! What a dear your neice is!

Let me go get a Q-tip so I can clean my ears out and make sure I heard that right.

Not trying to start a debate? No person of character could let a morally bankrupt recommendation like that pass by without comment.

Road, are you a WS? I can think of no other reason why you would say a WS should not tell their BS the facts about their life - of the pain their spouse has ALREADY caused, and let them make an informed decision about their own life.

Ears clean, still boggled. Jim, I would run from this advice.

TheRoad, I am hoping this is just a joke and you really DO know better than this. First off, honesty is the solution to adultery, not more dishonesty. A marriage cannot be repaired if the WS continues to lie to the BS about his own life. An affair is pertinent information about the BS life that he has a right to know. A BS not only has a right to this information, but needs to know it so he can protect himself from the WS. Dr. Harley is CRYSTAL CLEAR on this point and he is a leading "EXPERT."

More importantly, some people choose to LEAVE such marriages. If they are not told the truth about the affair, they are denied that right and kept in a marriage based on fraud and deceit. Not cool.

Secondly, children need to be told about the affair so they can be better prepared to deal with the fallout. Their lives are turned upside down by adultery and they should be told the truth and given moral guidance. If they do not recieve moral guidance from the BS, they will receive immoral guidance from the WS. Children are not made happy by being told lies about their parents, they are left vulnerable. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

TheRoad,

I'm kind of shocked at your last reply as I never believed you felt this way.


The burden on the WS began with the A, not the telling of the truth. Your words are almost verbatum from a Dr Phil episode a number of years back that my Fww watched and it only solidified her resolve not to tell me the truth.

Instead, my Dr. had to dx me with HPV a number of months later after 32 years of what I mistakenly thought was a faithful M.
I'm sure my W convinced herself that she was protecting me from the pain and burden and it was somehow an act of love.

Truth is, she exposed my health and life to STD's and HIV. ooops, guess that rules out love and protection. Seems to only leave one thing, self protection from the guilt and shame and the chance the M might end on the spot.

On dday, I had more respect for my long time Dr. than I did for my W. Recovery based on dishonesty is like building a house foudation in the sand. That's why Dr. H says " I'll take honesty for whatever the reason."

I do hope you'll reconsider your thoughts before you relay them to another Bs. JMHO.

All Blessings,
Jerry

"However, one reason why a WS should not tell their spouse about their affair is that a clueless spouse will have to carry an unbelievable amount of pain upon hearing that their spouse had SF with an OP.""The WS gets to dump their burden of guilt when they confess onto their BS. Why make it their spouses burden.""When a WS exposes themselves to their children the result will be to make themselves feeling better while placing a huge burden on them."


I did not state that I was for or against this position. I only stated a well known reason that is given for not exposing. The purpose was to think is the WW exposing herself to the children for what goal. There have been children that never knew about a parents affair and things worked well for them without being told.

Is Jim's WW only exposing herself to her COM to make her own pain to go away?



I hope that those that I got hopping all over the place still has the energy to present their answers to these issues that no one had the ability to answer before:

Why would a child need to know?

They ( the COM ) ask about the affair. Why is mom.....?

The affair is still on going and WW won't end it.

Explain why there is a plan B.

Tell why you are divorcing their mom.

However a question as: Why don't you/we see uncle anymore?


Jim flint ask me for answers. The best thing I could give Jim was problems for him to ponder. As I hoped he did, and hoped it would help him to decide what is best for him.


Jim needs to play out all the reasons for telling or not. Weighing the pros Vs the cons.

The best decisions are informed decisions. Jim doing this will have him prepared to then address this issue with the Harley's.

In my previous post I told him : I would check with the Harley's before you tell the kids. As to whether to tell, what to tell, and how to tell.

I have not told Jim to expose or not expose his kids. I have told him to go the top, the Harley's for the best advice.

And we stated that the reason you gave above is a stupid reason not based on logic or reason. I assure you the Harley's do not ever advocate deceit.

Jim Flint needs to follow Dr. Harley's well reasoned, educated responses as posted above, and tell his children. That is what he is here for, after all.

Common sense would dictate that the children be told so they don't hear it from someone else - and they will - and so they will understand why they will no longer be socializing with that side of that family. They need the truth so can be guided through this mess.

What is a "COM?"

COM=Children of Marriage

TR,

I suppose I could see a circumstance or two that would be outside the limits of exposure.

For instance, if Mom went out and had a ONS, and had a child of say, three yers old, and the M was reconsiled, then I don't see the point of bringing that three year old up to speed, sort of speak.

But this is a case of cousins not being able to communicate and see each other for the rest of their lives and not knowing why????

Do you not think they should know why they no longer interact??

This is not a case of unburdening oneself, it's about protecting onself from a boundary weakness that has already had far reaching consequences for the whole family. Including all the children involved!

I'm sure you can see this, right????

All Blessings,
Jerry

melody

I hope you read past what you quoted. In case you missed it:


I hope that those that I got hopping all over the place still has the energy to present their answers to these issues that no one had the ability to answer before:

Why would a child need to know?

They ( the COM ) ask about the affair. Why is mom.....?

The affair is still on going and WW won't end it.

Explain why there is a plan B.

Tell why you are divorcing their mom.

However a question as: Why don't you/we see uncle anymore?


Jim flint ask me for answers. The best thing I could give Jim was problems for him to ponder. As I hoped he did, and hoped it would help him to decide what is best for him.


Jim needs to play out all the reasons for telling or not. Weighing the pros Vs the cons.

The best decisions are informed decisions. Jim doing this will have him prepared to then address this issue with the Harley's.

In my previous post I told him : I would check with the Harley's before you tell the kids. As to whether to tell, what to tell, and how to tell.

I have not told Jim to expose or not expose his kids. I have told him to go the top, the Harley's for the best advice.

shinethrough: "I suppose I could see a circumstance or two that would be outside the limits of exposure." That was my point. Jims case it not cut and dry and for the third time I have not endorsed telling or not to tell but to seek out the Harley's

Meloldy to test if you read the whole post before you get in a tizzy a what if question. What if the Harley's don't recommend telling in this case?

I had aunts and uncles that had a falling out growing up. Was only told that someone said something about someone else and then certain ones only talked to certain ones for many years.

Some of the family I got to see some not until 10 years past and I was 16. Told it did not concern the kids and accepted it. When the adults patched up, all the cousins accepted it without question or explaination.

TheRoad, I did read your post. Did you read Dr. Harley's remarks that I posted? Jim needs to "ponder" Dr. Harley's WORDS, don't you think?

We KNOW Dr. Harley's position on this already, TheRoad:


entire article - Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

Jim:

theroad brought up an alternate theory pushed by a TV personality who is having marriage problems of his own. I will not duplicate what Mel and others are saying other than I do not disagree with their views in any part.

If you believe that you are on the right road, go for it. If there is even the tiniest doubt, call the Harleys. It NEVER hurts to get a professional second opinion.

That said, please do so asap before either of your minds can start to play games, a natural tendency in your situation. By that I mean second thoughts, yada yada yada.

And as I said, the Harleys might very well come up with something that nobody thought of heretofore. They do this stuff for a living. And the Harleys are the only ones I trust to make an exception to their usual advice.

Larry