Anyhow, what do you think about the talking in a public place idea? Would that help prevent it from getting physical? Would it help you remember not to follow him?

We haven't done MC in (I think) a couple years now.

A while ago I told him that I wanted to start again, especially if he wouldn't agree to do MB stuff with me. I think I wrote it in that letter I told y'all about here, right before the NZ trip, that he responded so positively to, but he never did the follow-up that I asked for in the letter. So I guess my bad for not enforcing my boundary and setting up something with a MC or staying withdrawn, when he didn't follow up with doing MB stuff as I said in the letter. I guess I've taught him that I'm not serious when I say I'm in danger of falling out of love, that his account is getting low, and that I want to do MB stuff or talk to a MC.

I don't feel like pushing him beyond his limit today. If he doesn't wanna talk then I don't wanna push it. That wouldn't achieve anything I desire, I see that now. So I don't think that's a danger.

There's a gazillion reasons I need to get along on a business level with him. On a personal level right now, I don't like him very much, and have no expectation that talking to him will meet any need of mine. No expectations, no disappointments.

The public place doesn't appeal to me for several reasons... for one thing, there's the kids, where would they be. At home I could wait till they're asleep or in another room. Plus, I would be embarrassed if he walked away in public, or started raising his voice or something, or if I started crying.

I promise to allow him to walk away, even if we're at home.

Or are you thinking it would help *him* feel safer, if he knew we were in public and I "couldn't" chase after him?

Are there some Rules of Care things I could do to facilitate him being better able to listen and talk?

Jayne I just want it to stop, the abuse, especially when the kids are around. I don't know why you tolerate it, but you do, and then think withdrawal is a bad place for you. I think it's a GREAT place for you, away from him for a year. Not judging you, I know I do the same thing, not putting a foot down about my H's drunkenness, kicking the bottom out of my own bucket by staying. Loathing myself for not living my values.

It sounds to me like you did try this on your own, and it's time to call the Harleys. You could try to POJA that, or any other thing, until you decide you want expert help. Who could live with someone who won't agree to discuss the important concerns, even if they need to break it down to 15 minutes a day until it's done?

I had a thought - I'm not trying to rationalize postponing calling the Harleys, but do you think there's so much going on in our lives right now that it would be too hard to separate out the genuine marriage problems from the temporary situational stuff like the move?

jayne, I really don't. I think that it's important for you two to have an open dialogue for all the decisions that are going to have to be made.

ok...

Maybe I'll go tell him I want to call for an appointment with the Harleys.

Oh, I wonder if their 800 number works in Canada? Sometimes those things don't.

He's heavily involved in financial stuff right now, I don't think this is a good time. Not that there's ever a good time, but now is prolly worse than most.

Hi Jayne,
Flicks away for a few days so I am catching up on MB (yay!) I read yours this morning (I was a bout 10 pages behind) and thought about it while I was at work.

Regarding carrying the twins. At six do they really need to be carried? Someone suggested that maybe if they have reached the end of their abilities then perhaps going back to your room/house or even stopping for a while (coffee shop/cafe)might be a good idea. Generally if the kids are so tired they need to be carried, the outing isn’t suitable for them.
Yes H might get ticked he spent money on something that doesn’t get fully utilised but maybe after a few times of having you and the boys leave may help him see this?
Is H very involved with the kids? Does he have a realistic outlook on thier abilities and limitations? I still find Flick over estimating our 2. I doubt your H finds having 2 whining tired kids and a resentful wife trudging behind him, conducive to a 'good' outing.

I really dont like the idea of withdrawing, even though I know it does help you, is probably a sensible coping mechanism for you when he just plain wont talk. I dont like it because of the huge problems it cause in my M.
I am sorry if you have mentioned this before but was H like this (not very chatty) when you first met? If so what where your thoughts on it then?

Anyway, I wont pretend to have actual answers for you, these are just the thoughts I had.

Yay!!! A post, and from lil!!! I've missed you, girl! I've been reading your thread but haven't been in a good enough place myself to say anything useful. I felt like I screwed up a bit w/ posting to Flick and with you feeling abandoned, and didn't know how to make that better. I'm sorry.

I agree that this was not appropriate for their age. They were the youngest there, except for kids in strollers. It was a tour and we had to keep up with the tour guide. In fact, at one point I had one kid and we were waiting for H and the other, who were lagging waaaaaaay behind... and a security guard/mountie/something scolded me and said if we didn't keep up with our group we would have to leave the building!!! Grrrrrrr.

Which confuses me cus when the official part of the tour was over, it ended in that same room, with the tour guide telling us we were now free to look around on our own... ?!?!?!

So it was necessary to walk faster than they could handle, and they were tired from having been walking around for several hours by then, and there was no sitting down during the tour. And 6a had the hiccups, off and on for the past two days.

OOOOH I have an update, I gotta end this post so I can start another...

Hey Jayne,
I see you have made it onto the 2k post club

Dont worry about my fluctuating emotions, I was over sensitive and took offence at people I shouldnt have, because they were safer than Flick. KWIM? I feel safer with people on MB who I have never met, prolly never will, than my H at times, but its getting better. Forgive me?

Hiccups for 2 days? Wow, poor kid must be going near on crazy with it.
What did your H rhink of the tour?

H just got back from the grocery store, and he brought flowers!!!!!!!

Harumph.

Flowers =/ talking.

Now I dunno if he meant it as a peace offering, or if he bought them cus I'd mentioned getting some before we left, in case anyone looked at the house while we were gone. (It's on the market.)

But I think he was disappointed that my reaction wasn't bigger. I didn't show much emotion. I said they were nice, and asked him if he'd put them in water.

I feel kinda bad for not giving him the admiration he prolly was hoping for. But in line with the philosophy that we teach ppl how to treat us and how to respect us, I don't want to "teach" him that he can get away with IB and ignoring my EN for H&O and communication, by buying flowers.

Hmmm,
Did you ask him if he had bought them for the house looking at thing? Then if he bought them for you he could say.
Then from that point you could gently tell him that while you appreciate the attempt, he would get more H being wonderful points by being O&H. That flowers do not gain him much.
I assume he understands that everyone ‘rates’ gestures?

Oh wow, lil, that woulda been good if only I thought that fast!

It went *something* like:
me: Those are nice, what did you get them for?
H: I got them for you. (With a hopeful little smile)
me: Hmmm. You didn't get them for the real estate agent?
H: Nooo... (with a kinda sad hurt smile...)
me: Well you shouldn't have... do you want to put them in water?

Doggonit, it was the perfect opportunity to say what you wrote! That woulda acknowledged his attempt but communicated what I really need. Or would it have come off as a dig?

Do you think I can still say it? Do you think I can bring up the flowers again, and thank him for them, and say what you wrote? Or at this point is he closed off now, since I didn't accept his flowers more positively?

LOL,
I am only just starting to try to think this way.
Definately can bring them up, just need to work out a 'natural' opening remark. However it does sound like they were for you.

Could you say something like "honey, those flowers you bought smell/look/taste nice. Did you really get them for me, not for the house looking at thing?

And thats your opening.
Obviously your not going to eat them, just wanted to make you smile.

Just curious...
do you really not like getting flowers?

I dont either but thats because I am hideously allergic, and I have never met anyone else who didnt.

BTW, lil, no worries (as y'all say!) nothing to forgive!

Yes, 6a was in tears several times yesterday, as the hiccups came and went. There was one meal he couldn't even eat.

I think H liked the tour... if I used some psychology, I'd prolly figure he may have felt guilty as it turned into too much for the kids, and he may have been defensive when he said that I'm impossible to talk to, and in his rewriting of history to claim he never said we'd go to the museum instead of take a tour of Parliament. Sort of the man wanting to be a good "provider" and feeling bad when he's made a poor decision or has done something less than admirable.

I actually like getting flowers, but not in an overwhelming sort of way. I like *having* flowers in the house, I find they really brighten a room - but then I'm not allergic.

Getting gifts is very low on my list of love languages, partly cus I think my mom would show her love by buying me things I didn't want, when all I really wanted was attention... so nix the material things, just effing talk to me already!

have you told him that?

Every once in a while you say something that makes me think our H's are secretly brothers.
However while what you wrote sounds very insightful and may even me completly true, you dont actually know whats going on inside his head


This not talking thing....has he always been like this or has it developed over the years?