That's just the thing - I don't think she was really open with them either. She just liked the attention, and allowed things to go further than they ever should have because it made her feel good. But as for sharing any intimate thoughts, she says that never happened.

I believe her version of events.

Didn't you believe her when she said no affair was happening?

Take MEDC's advice. Polygraph her. She should WANT to do it!

If she doesn't WANT TO then she is LYING STILL!

ANY truly repentant FWS that has NOTHING to hide would jump at the chance to PROVE their honesty. MIM's wife will NOT do that because she is not being honest.

She suggested that only once in her entire 2-year A, and only obliquely. If I remember her words correctly, it was something along the lines of "I didn't tell you who it was I purchased the stuff for, because I didn't want you to think that there was something going on between us." Not exactly an admission, eh? But yes, I believed her at the time. That sort of obfuscation is not going to work on me again. That's probably one of the reasons we're finding it so hard - I'm not settling for the "vague" answers I used to get to my questions before, and she's not accustomed to providing direct answers to questions concerning "private" issues.



No options for polygraphs here in this small community, unfortunately. However my BS-meter got turned up really high after her A was disclosed, and it's not detecting any BS here. I will say though that she did say some of the usual WS-things, like "polygraphs aren't all that accurate", "if you don't trust me to the point that you think I need to take a lie-detector test, then perhaps we should end it", etc., but I think it was more of her FEAR OF PUBLIC DISCLOSURE rather than dishonesty talking at the time.

I don't think I've ever seen someone here who has fooled themselves into believing something more than you have.

I guess you want to believe sooooo bad you convince yourself it's true. You wife really has it pretty easy.

I'm terribly sorry for you and what your children are learning about marriage.

I agree ... it's sad to see that MB has a new member of the "Neutered BH's in Denial" club.

MIM, I guess I'm going to say that I would be pretty concerned in R that my FWW does not see the connection between her actions and how they may trigger and effect you.

Your W made what she saw at the time, as a business decision to hire this new employee. But she seems to have found a way to compartmentize her business decisions from your marriage. This is a dangerous place to live, as it is exactly how she began an A with a co-worker. Two lives, seeperate and apart from the M.
very dangerous indeed.

Against the grain, I don't think your wife is a liar, but rather has not yet found a way to connect the dots between your M life and her business life. Having a second and secret life at her business, is what led to the A with a co-worker in the first place. My w did exactly the same thing. They are convinced that as long as those two worlds don't collide, all is OK.

It would be my opinion, that your FWW has not completely subscribed to the policy of open and radical honesty, and most importantly, the policy of joint agreement!

I think you would do well to impress upon her that she cannot have a compartmentized life of business, and marriage. The two are not exclusive and will demoralize a M in a New York minute.

That is the lesson my W had to learn. It's extremely important!!

I will refrain from the name calling here, as I don't truly know your W's motives, but I highly suspect that she did not do this to look for another AP. She simply has not latched onto the POJA. You both need to revisit this idea, as Dr H has said the path to R " is very narrow!

More work is required on both your parts here. When accomplished, this will not be an issue again.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I think is exactly what happened in her last job, and I suspect that it may be happening in this one as well. Her failure to disclose the new hire, innocent as it might have been on her part, might be an aspect of this - that she may be beginning to compartmentalize again. I have mentioned this to her, and I will mention it again. It cannot be allowed to happen again.

MiM

Out of respect for you, I will back off and not post to Tangled again. I did address the issue of character on her thread one last time because I believe that character is the key to why people commit adultery and I said so.

To recover from adultery, it is my belief that a person who has given in to their weaknesses or entitlement, must address their inner vision of themself and change their character if they are to achieve atonement and adulthood. I believe Tangled goes to whatever lengths she must to protect her inner self from any material change. And I think THAT is the problem.

All the best MiM. I wish you and your family well.

Larry

... so MIM, if it does, what do YOU do?

I think this kind of thinking is what got you where you are today, MIM. Making her failure to disclose THE ISSUE is a complete COP OUT. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE and it is ridiculous to say it is. The issue is that she HAS NO BOUNDARIES and continues to place herself in vulnerable positions.

Its not that she didn't DISCLOSE her recent hiring of young male, BUT THAT SHE DID IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The answer is not to DISCLOSE her complete lack of boundaries, but to INITIATE BOUNDARIES.

I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years sobriety. Do you think its ok for me go drinking as long as I "disclose" it? Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Well, that is exactly what you are saying here. Your wife still hangs out in bars and you are only upset that she didn't "disclose" it!

You are focused on the wrong thing and I suspect it is because its just easier to focus on some irrelevent aspect of the situation you are afraid of her ire if you ask her to do anything significant to protect your marriage. HALF MEASURES WILL AVAIL YOU NOTHING.

I'm not surprised that you feel that way. It is my impression as well. She needs to recognize that there IS a core weakness to her that she needs to address, and it's not just about adjusting behaviour patterns. And I think she is slowly getting to that point. And it may involve taking some steps that she may feel uncomfortable taking. Beating her over the head with verbal 2x4s is not going to help her on that path.

Has your approach worked, MIM?

I've considered the possibilities, as I imagine this is one of the scenarios we might face in our M again. Apart from talking to her about it, I'm also considering talking to her boss (who happens to be one of our friends). And if it escalates and she indicates that she doesn't want to do anything about it, ask her to leave the job or leave the M.

I don't think it will ever get that far though. Her current job is only a part-time one, and it's not an "occupation" like the last one used to be.

It's been more successful than beating her over the head.

I keep reminding myself that this is a marathon, not a sprint. A marathon, not a sprint. A marathon, not a sprint...

In a marathon, one is supposed to MOVE, MIM, not stay in the SAME PLACE for 3 years.

You are not in a marathon, you are in a COMA of conflict avoidance.

I see your point. I don't think she established that hiring of young males to report to her was a boundary for herself that should not be crossed.

I think she's looking at her 'boundaries' along the lines of what behaviour she would not accept from any man but her husband, in any given situation. That's why she was talking about "knowing the signs" and all that in her thread. Perhaps she didn't realise that going into the bar rather than just remembering to refuse a drink could be dangerous enough too.

Food for thought. I'll discuss this with her tonight.

I did discuss that with her and she rationalized it away with the fact that she had other male reports in the past and didn't have an affair with THEM.

She prefers to focus on the times she played chicken and didn't GET HIT. She does not want to focus on the time she DID GET HIT, and that is the problem.

In other words, she is fogged out and is completely oblivous to her vulnerabilities, which makes her even more vulnerable to another affair. She is a walking affair waiting to happen.

Nah, I disagree. Things are getting better slowly, though the roller-coaster seems to still have a few twists and turns left on the ride.

In fact, just before this whole blow-up, we were discussing my coming off my ED pills (they're mostly for performance anxiety, as the plumbing seems to work fine). That's certainly not something I would have even *thought* of trying if I thought we'd made no progress at all. She's indicated that she willing to help any way she can.

MiM, my wife would shoot me if I got off ED meds. There are fringe benefits that both of us find exciting. I too had performance anxiety and now do not given the internal changes my wife has made. BUT, the, uh, fringe benefits versus the zero cost to me make them, uh, er, ahem, (cough) worthwhile.



Larry