I have no kids with WstbxH, but he did raise my DS who was just turning 19 at d-day. He was already living on his own, attending college. Other than paying for his tuition, he was no longer dependent on us and his actual day-to-day life would not have been affected regardless of how things turned out. That's not to say he was unaffected - he most certainly was, but after d-day and the knowledge that his father was openly committing adultery, the specifics of how we, the parents, chose to resolve it were of little consequence to him. So he was not a factor in any decisions made.

Initially I wanted more than anything to save this M. I still love him. I could have forgiven the A - if only he had shown even the teensiest bit of remorse. But he did not. Not only that, I discovered a lot of other ways in which he'd been betraying me. These things started to add up quickly and I abandoned Plan A, went immediately into a modified Plan B (no letter, just darkness so I wouldn't be hurt by his crap).

It's never JUST an affair. There are so many other "crimes" against the BS when a WS commits adultery - lying, using joint money etc. My WstbxH may be in a "fog", but he's ugly there. Really ugly. Somebody with all the characterstics that I loathe. Sure, I had invested 17 years in him. But who knows how many of those years he spent lying to me - I uncovered a lot of stuff from the recent years but available bank records and such only go so far back. Did I really want to make the incredible effort required for recovery for someone who I could never trust again - because I can't even know the extent of what he's done so far??? No - not just for the prospect of growing old with a man I can't trust.

If we had children, things would have been quite different. I can say this because I HAVE had children (well, one) so I can see both sides of this. If DS had been young, or if we had children of our own, I would not have pulled out of Plan A when I did. I would also have had more support from his family to help - which is a big deal as well. That's not to say I wouldn't have eventually pulled out anyway, but I certainly would have hung in longer.

I don't regret my decision in any way. My life is going very well now. I grieve less and anticipate more. And sometimes I'm even grateful that I don't have go home and explain why I spent money on something, or ask his opinion on what to plant in the garden or whatever. I had always envisioned a life being married so it was hard, but now I'm ok.

This thread brings up one of the reasons I only have a few posts here.

Since I have no kids, am only 31, have only been married 5yrs (together 12) and will have to deal with an OC, every poster in my thread has told me to bail.

I came here looking for support in trying to repair my marriage, not to be told to get a divorce. I could have went to "Divorce Builders" for that. Heck, my divorce lawyer has been more supportive of me staying married than most posters here.

It does not matter the sittuation (kids, length of mairrage, age) as long as the person posting has a deep wish to save there mairriage, then thats what they are going to try and do! Why not support them the best way possable?

Yes we may be wrong.

Yes we may be fools.

Yes we may be making the biggest mistake of our lives.

And yes, you may be 100% correct in thinking we are just hurting ourselves and delaying the inevitable.

But, for our own reasons, we want to try
Where is the support?

Plan A has two parts, it's supposed to do everything posable to make the wayword fall back in love with the BS and stop the affair. But it is supposed to be so exhausting to the BS that if it doesn't work, it drains there love for the wayword so low, that plan B and or plan D, do not hurt nearly as much. (or not at all)

Unless I am wrong, that is what SAA teaches. I have set a time limit on plan A, I have not reached it yet. I also still love my WW enough to continue with it. When I have reached my limit, and my love has fallen off enough, I will go to plan B. (or directly to plan D) But untill I reach that point, I am going to keep going with plan A.

I want plan A to work, but even if it doesn't, it still works. If I run plan A to the point that I dont love her anymore, then hey, I wont care if I get divorced. It's kind of a win/win.

But I am not ready to stop yet, so I am not going to.

So where is the support?

Gack, I hear you and you are absolutely right. Even if you have kids, there are going to be those that tell you to bail, even family members who are suppossed to be there for you the most.

I just think that without kids, the BS doesn't have that bargaining chip with the kids as another reason to try and to continue contact. And on the other side of it, a divorce can truly be a complete break and fresh start, while with kids, you will almost always have to still deal with each other.

But you should never give up until you are ready to give up. It's your life, and no one else should make that decision for you. Keep going!

I'm sorry but I don't understand this. I married a women who is "born" a cheater? I knew she was a cheater when I married her because that is a characteristic? I know my wife's history. Remember, I said that she has only had ONE serious relationship before me. She ended that, moved on with me, and has never cheated on me for 8.5yrs.


Does anyone have possible stats on this. Is there not a single cheater who has learned from their ways the first time and vowed NEVER to do it again?


Yes this person is a cheater. BUT, I don't believe ANYONE can guarantee that you can find a person who won't. You can't tell the future, people are individuals and you can't control what they will do no matter who you are with. You can't guarantee that you will live the rest of your life in happiness just because you're with someone else. Look how many people are here in the later years of their life and their spouse cheated on them years or even decades into the marriage.



So, just like my point above, your M was cheated on in one relationship and she left it. Moved to the second relationship, as you say should be happily ever after and your D cheated on her for a number of years and it sounds like this was before kids? If so, after giving me advice to give up on my marriage, if your M had done that where would you be???? Did she move on from your D after the cheating 18yrs later? Did she finally find that person who would never cheat on her and live happily ever after. Sorry, I don't understand



She is very happy now, but can you guarantee her future? No one can.

I do have a fear of the unknown, a fear of what the future holds, everyone does. There are no guarantees in life except for the choices YOU make.
I believe that a person can make a mistake and learn from it, grow from it. I believe that a person who may have cheated once in their life can even be a stronger person than someone who has never cheated and NOT cheat again because they have experienced the potential loses, the pain, the heartache and will never want to feel that again.

I am another "short M" (we've been married for just over three years now), with no children. In this case, I am the FWW, although my H has had an RA of his own, as well as some other questionable things (detailed on my thread, not for here...).

Much like Gack, Intro, and others here... when I first came here, I was immediately told to cut my losses and run. Jennifer, OTOH, hasn't even suggested that once...

I also haven't ran-- and also take great offense to the tone of the board that immediately tells people to cut and run when there's no kids. Honestly, I haven't seen anyone without kids that hasn't been offended by that yet-- that has came here and after given the "you have no kids" advice-- has said, "you're right! I'm gonna cut and run!". Usually those people either A. stop posting (as I did for awhile) or B. stay and ignore those people-- sadly enough, there's a lot of them though.

I also feel that the M should be evaluated in ABSENCE of whether or not there is kids involved. There's a few on this board RIGHT NOW with kids, I would say should cut and run. MIM comes to mind. There's a few without kids that I think have a good chance. Intro comes to mind there. But I'm evaluating those as a MARRIAGE, and looking at the damage to the MARRIAGE.

And I like that someone pointed out that-- if your argument is that a cheater is likely to cheat again-- well if you've GOT kids-- why would you put your kids through that TWICE?? Shouldn't you want to protect them from that? Teach them to stand up for themselves?

I've pretty much just come to ignore the "cut and run" advice. And, Gack, if you hang around enough and keep posting-- people will come out of the woodwork that either "forget" that you don't have kids and give you advice as if you do-- or will support your decision to try to save your M.

I will agree that a D is probably easier-- LEGALLY if you have no kids. And maybe even years from now, emotionally-- because you'll never have to see the person again. But it doesn't make it ANY easier at the time.

And I don't think that M without kids are "less salvageable" either. I can see ADVANTAGES to not having kids and recovering. I don't have soccer practices, and 3 am nightmares to keep me from focusing my attention on my H and taking away my 15 hours a week. We can CONCENTRATE on our M with NO intervention. As much as you may love your kids, those soccer practices, etc, can get in the way of RECOVERING your M. Because your kids aren't a part of the M...

My two cents...

And another with no kids...

E.

31 years old and has been with the woman for 12 years. So that means he met her when he was 19.

Again, it proves my point. You're hanging on out of fear. You fear you can't love again. You fear you won't meet anyone better.

You were a child when you met her. You hang on because this is all you've known.

Yet, if you could let go, be content with being alone, you can indeed find someone better.

But you instead choose to stay with a woman who not only cheated on you, but had a child with the man she cheated with.

This is like telling a woman that gets beaten by her husband to leave him to protect herself. She's being abused. She has no kids with the man. So why subject herself to more beatings and then risk future pain for her children?

Her answer: because I love him.

Frustrating.

You guys are asking for your own abuse. So yes, people here, with your age and lack of children, can see that you will set yourself up for future heartache. All done just because "I love her and feel people can change."

That's the classic mistakes people make in a marriage. What you see is what you get. Change can be hoped for but not expected.

I've been married and have had children. If I date another woman right now and had her cheat on me I would drop her like a hot potato, especially if I have no kids with her. Why?

Because there's plenty of women out there and there are some great ones.

Armed with MB knowledge there are no guarantees, but the chances of being heartbroken again are less if MB principles are applied and one doesn't settle for just being with someone out of fear of being alone.

And yes, my mom did find a man who I seriously doubt he would cheat on her. Why? Because he doesn't believe in "harmless flirting" and regularly rebuffs women coming on to him.

My father wasn't and isn't that way. He plays with fire.

Would I be here if my mom bailed on him when she was dating him?

No. But she stuck with him for years because she was a child when she met him (16) and quite frankly didn't know any better.

So she's been with her new husband for nearly 10 years. If he cheated he'd be dropped like a hot potato.

Not saying it wouldn't hurt. It very much would.

But he's a man who recognizes limits and boundaries and knows that ALL of us are vulnerable to cheating.

Staying with a woman who is abusive when there are no kids involved shows you are too afraid of the unknown and have a very low self image to want to accept and forgive that kind of behavior with the only justification being "I love her and have been with her x amount of years."

You say she's not this person and she's someone else. Well, she IS that person. She made a conscious choice to screw around on you.

It didn't "just happen".

No one held a gun to her head to make her unzip her pants or that of the other man.

So seeing a man constantly defend a woman just because he's been with her since he was a teen is heartbreaking because you can do better and we know it, but you are too afraid to let go of this abusive person.

We are responsible for how we let others treat us.

NO ONE is worth the tears of being cheated on, especially when there are no kids.

I can bet you a million dollars that if you walked away, let her go, and moved on with your life you'd be happier than if you chose to stay married to a cheater. Because right now you're caught up in getting her back. So if she returns then what?

You will always have that nagging in the back of your mind that she screwed someone else. You'll live paranoid that she'll do it again.

Why put yourself through that when there are so many good women out there?

That's what isn't comprehensible.

But if you want to get her back, then by all means. Follow the plans and hope she comes back and hope that if she returns she reforms and doesn't do it again.

But you're being short sighted if you think that once you get past the "bring her back" part that you yourself won't go through the anger and stress of rebuilding and the idea that she'll do it again.

You're with women who have willingly chosen to defy God and your vows. Unless there's a major transformation where she repents, asks for forgiveness, recommits to the marriage, and returns and accepts boundaries she'll cheat again.

If you take her back with no accountability and no changes, then you will go through this again.

Just check in with abandonedwith3's thread, who forgave his wife's 2 previous affairs and see how he's doing now.

He's living a nightmare because kids are involved. This is your likely future.

Can people change? Sure.

Are there guarantees with someone new? No.

Is there a ton of work ahead of you to recover? Absolutely.

Have you learned from this experience about relationships and marriage in a way that increases your chances of success?

Yes.

But one thing you should do, regardless of the path you choose to take, is get a therapist and really explore the relationship with your wife. Why tolerate this behavior? Why stay when there is nothing tying you to this person?

These are questions only you can answer.

But it's the same question of a woman who is being abused: Is loving him enough to stay and hope that he changes and doesn't beat you anymore?

Yes, but that's in the case where both spouses want to work on the marriage and are committed. If one is not committed, then you don't have those things to keep contact up. I have little doubt that if my wife and I didn't have kids, then she would not let me near her at all. Then again, if we didn't have kids, we would have avoided many of our issues as you're hinting at.

Fair enough-- If you don't have the kids to keep that contact going, its easier for the spouse that wants out to bail to not have to see the one that wants to keep things going.

I've seen my fair share of marriages implode in my time because people are TOO wrapped up in their children and their M suffer as a result. What these people forget is that by having a stable, loving M-- that is giving something to a child too, indirectly. You are teaching that child that your spouse is a priority too, and that the relationship is a priority, yes, sometimes even over the child (sometimes being the key word). I think dropping everything and over-indulging children to the point that your M suffers not only hurts the M-- but sets the child up to have entitlement issues later in life...

E.

I'm not advocating having kids and indulging them at the expense of your marriage.

I'm not advocating staying together "just for the kids".

I'm advocating healthy marriages.

But you have no kids and don't understand. You stick with someone who cheated. That's your choice so if that's what you want, then by all means people here will support you. We won't be able to understand your motives for doing so, but we can offer suggestions on plans to restore your marriage or win your spouse back.

Telling you to bail is simply advice based on our own life experiences. We with kids have no understanding of why someone who is young and without kids feels a need to stay with a person who has cheated and is likely to do so again unless they seriously reform.

There's plenty of people out there who have no need to reform.

But if you wish to save your marriage then that's your own choice and people here will support you once that decision is made.

So Gack, by all means, try to get your wife back. Same with introver, abandonedwithouther, and the others who have no kids.

Plan A, then Plan B, stop LBs, incorporate the 180, and work on yourself.

She may come back, she may not.

As long as you recognize and accept that you may be diminishing the potential for a true second chance--I think it takes a great deal of courage to attempt recovery w/out kids. It is easier to divorce and start over without children and foregoing that illustrates real commitment. I don't think it's a wise thing to do but I respect the choice.

If you ask BH's w/ kids what is the worst consequence stemming from their WW's affair I'd venture you'd hear similar responses--we lament to our core the affect on our kids. Families that are torn asunder by this tornado are left with a generational tragedy. I think the pain that BH's feel (whether w/ children or not) is profound, but one difference is that for BH's w/ kids the betrayal has consequences that ring far beyond the vacuum of the marriage.

And last for years after the fact.

So when we look back, we often wish we had made smarter choices when we were younger and had actually stuck to our instincts and not settled for fear of being alone. Would have saved ourselves and our children lots of pain.

E - I agree. It's not kids first or spouse first. It's family first. The one who gets the most should be the one who needs the most.

edit: And honestly, I'm sure I don't fully understand the depths of cheating, but I can't see how 2 people who want to be married and are committed to change should just give up and get a divorce.

Your opinion on this matter is basically that a leopard can't change it's spots, but you are failing to see that a woman who cheats (while having children) has even uglier spots.

Why do you not see that? Is it possibly because your XWW had children and YOU decided to try to recover and that decision was taken away from you by her? Therefore it is a little bit of retribution for you to say that people in "other" circumstances than "yours" should bail...simply because you can no longer justify your decsion to try to recover?

One of the two people are obviously not committed AT ALL if they were willing to risk the marriage for an affair.

Edited to add: There are many reasons a WS will want to stay in the M that have nothing to do with recovery. They have fears of being alone and financial worries that motivate them to stay (note, I didn't say recover).

I wanted to recover. And I'm by no means defending my ex.

She's not someone I want to be with. But I was willing to forgive and try to recover so I could be with my children and preserve their family.

I miss my family. I don't miss my exww.

My W died 2 years ago and I haven't seen her since. She was replaced by the exww and by no means do I ever want to be with that person.

And you're right, a woman who cheats with children in the picture is a vile creature. She's by definition not a good mother.

That doesn't mean she can't repent, ask for forgiveness, and reform and commit to a marriage again and become a FWW, many of which I respect on these boards.

Did I want to forgive my WW? Yes. Did I want to do it because of the kids? Yes.

Did I love her? Yes.

But the love is dead now. That still doesn't mean I would have rather followed a different path and preserved my family.

But if I had no kids with her I'd happily be free because I've since seen how I was settling for her and could have done infinately better in terms of a mate. I married someone who was/is selfish, immature, and full of problems.

But that's with hindsight. At the time I wanted to forgive and try to save my family. I wanted her to recommit to the marriage.

But again, that would have required her to not be selfish, become mature, and work on her problems.

She can't and hasn't changed her spots.

She is what she is and is unrepentant worst of all.

I never want to be with anyone like that again.

So if you want your wives back, kids or not, she needs to not be selfish, grow up, and work on her problems. She must change her spots.

My experience is that it's very hard for people to change their spots unless they choose to do so. VERY hard.

So you can pour salt on my wounds for having wanted to save my marriage, but you are doing the same for yours when there's nothing that ties you to this person other than time and feelings.

Time is something you'll never get back and it certainly doesn't make sense to waste more of it on someone who doesn't wish to or is incapable of changing.

Feelings will go away and can be found with someone else.

You're also taking this attitude of "I'm just not quitting" as reason enough to save your marriage.

I'm sure there were folks on the Titanic who didn't quit trying to bail water and keep the boat from sinking. They would have been better off looking for the half empty life boats and bailed out before going down with the ship they were trying to save.

A noble effort, but a doomed one.

No, they dont.

I agree wholeheartedly. The WS needs to change-- dramatically-- and permanently-- in order for recovery to take place. But I don't see how having kids makes that more likely? In fact, I can see how a WW would come back solely because she misses her kids-- but not "recover", ever-- not really "change her spots". Just come back out of fear of losing the kids.

What I don't get is why you are suggesting that somehow you can't do all of the above if you don't have kids? That makes no sense.



I think this is an incredibly, oversimplified comment that is highly offensive to those that are right now fighting for their M, and don't have kids. Again, even if you HAVE kids your M could be doomed. Look at MIM's thread. He has kids. His WW is on her third A. THREE! Yeah, he should cut his losses. She obviously never changed her spots-- and she has kids. His M is doomed, IMHO.

Recovery depends on attitude changes on the part of the WS-- which has no dependency on whether or not you have kids. You can change your attitude and have kids, or you can change your attitude and not have kids. You can remain the same WS with or without kids too-- that's been demonstrated here over and over again (including by your WW!).

You eluded to the fact that you felt that maybe you should have cut your losses earlier with your WW, before kids. Maybe I was reading too much in. Are you saying she cheated on you before, before kids? And if this is true, don't you think your own regrets, resentment, and hurt might be coloring your opinion quite a bit? We all have our own experiences that we speak from, but we have to recognize that not all are exactly like our own, nor should we project our own regrets on others...

E.

This reminds me of another thing. As Ex's with children, you don't have the luxury of putting it all behind you anyway. You will have to see that WS again and again for the rest of your life - because of your children. You will have to communicate, negotiate, discuss, argue, disagree, agree - on an ongoing basis until at least the kids are finished college, if not longer. Just because the judge says "this" is what the custody/visitation arrangement is going to be, there are still things that require discussion. That Ex is part of your life forever.

With no kids, there are no such complications.

Here is what MIM has to say about why he does it (see page 15 of his thread):


Nobody is saying you shouldn't fight for your M just because you don't have kids. We're just trying to let you know that the road you are attempting to take is long, hard, painful and has no guarantee for success. Those that take it are often motivated by the interests of their children - as MIM so clearly spells out above. You take kids out of the equation, and add a short term marriage on top of that and the only reasons left are lonliness and inevitable feeling of failure - both of which will pass.

In his case, I'd argue that his children stand more emotional harm by living with such a immoral person that cheated on him 3x, than by him D'ing her. What are they learning? To let someone walk all over you? I am all for teaching kids about forgiveness, but you have to teach them to stick up for themselves too. MIM has become a doormat (and a doormat with his head in the sand)-- and his kids see that every day.

But really, that's for MIM's thread, not here. He's just an example of one of a few I think on this board need to BAIL, stat. And it has nothing to do with kids or no kids. It has to do with her lack of an attitude change.

And, I interpret pom's comments as directly saying you shouldn't fight for your M unless you have kids. I think he's made that pretty clear. Heck, he even invalidated M's that don't have kids! That a M isn't real, until you have kids. That's bologny. So then why does M even EXIST? Why don't people just live together, date, whatever, but there's no "real" commitment until kids? I think its sad that we live in a throw-away society where "having kids" is the new "getting married". Getting married itself has lost a lot of its importance in this divorce happy society. Not saying that a BS doesn't have a right to divorce a WS-- by all means, they do. But if they want to try to make it work-- it IS still a M.

E.