Dude,

Let me guess. Showing a lack of interest and acting like you could easily dump her and move on suddenly shook her awake and she's now really, really trying?

When she finally realized that she could lose you she got shaken from her waywardness?

Obviously that doesn't work for all. Certainly didn't work for me (I was a wimp for a looooooong time).

My bal*s grew after she made false allegations and I was able to shake the remaining good feelings I had for her. But she was too fargone by that point and I went from denial and grief to very deep anger that lasted a good while.

I'm fairly entrenched in acceptance now (feel pretty peaceful actually) but I went through all the phazes. Anger was the scariest.

But I finally had the clear head to fight for my rights as a father.

I've let the ex go in my heart. She did that work for me with the false claims. But the love for my kids and my determination to be a part of their lives simply got stronger.

I will NEVER go away. I'll be there forever, possibly waiting to move away from here when the boys turn 18. But may not move if I'm married again. Who knows.

No kids?

Why are you willing to forgive her and try again?

These are very valid questions and I'm not questioning why you want to. I'm just curious what, outside of love, motivates you to forgive her.

I ask from the perspective of seeing how many good women there are out there.

Ee,

I see that i was the very first post you had.

Interesting that I told you that you were lucky to not have kids to get caught in the crossfire. I also wished you luck.

Did you ever go beyond the EA in your situation? What is the status of your marriage now?

First off, I wanted to say that I'm glad that we could get to a point where we can discuss this rationally, Pom Honestly, I grow the most from talking to people on this board that DON'T agree with me! I find that in talking with people that already agree with me, I'm not learning anything "new"-- ya know? So I'm extra glad when I can find someone I can converse with that has differing opinions than me and it doesn't have to involve mudslinging and absolutes I'm sorry that things sort of got off on a wrong foot between us Pom.

OK, to answer some questions.




Agreed. And I agree with you that kids can be that incentive-- and probably are in a lot of cases. Love for a child is unconditional!


Part of it was "grass isn't greener" idea. When I fell into my A, I thought it was greener. But then I realized I was only going to be trading in one set of "problems" for a different set. I think the biggest thing I've learned in all of this is that all relationships have problems-- its how you deal with them that is MOST important. As has been eluded to by others too-- in all honesty, part of it was that I saw that my H was FED UP with my attitude and behaviors. I was about THISCLOSE to losing it all. And I thank God everyday that I have this chance... I do advocate a BH stepping up and not floundering around. It is important for them to make it apparent to the WW that they WILL AND CAN move on without the WW. This was the single largest fog clearer for me.

I felt guilty, I wanted to make amends. I don't think you ever can, but the closest you can come is to own your problems, and DO SOMETHING about them. Its not that I had problems that matters anymore-- its what I'm doing about them now. And that makes me feel better about myself.


I was not abused, but I have never had a "true" father figure in my life, nor an example of a good M. My father has been minimally involved in my life, and is not a very good husband. My family is not very close, at all. I do believe that a "broken" family did contribute, but I fortunately have not experienced "traditional" abuse.

Yes, I did. I had horrid boundaries, and did believe that flirting was OK. Now I don't have a single male friend anymore, and keep my conversations with male co-workers strictly to work. I also surrounded myself with girlfriends with questionable boundaries also-- which have also been eradicated from my life.


Not far off at all. Very similar to my sitch also.


My story (in a nutshell):

Met OM at work. There was an organized sport that our department participated in that one of my co-workers organized each year-- I decided that since my H was out of town all the time (he was out of town Monday thru Friday each week), I would do the sport to "keep busy". I really "met" OM thru the sport... I knew who he was prior to the sport, but we worked in different departments and never really crossed paths.

Started talking more about the sport, flirting while playing (everyone did it, why not me?? )

The offering him a ride home afterwards.

More talk.

Then trading emails, teasing each other ("I'm going to beat your team tonight!" "Prepare to lose!").

Then talking about common interests, unhappiness in current R on both sides.

Then lunches, and sometimes dinner after the sport (sometimes just us, sometimes with others... of course, just as friends )

Then he kissed me one day after I dropped him off (and that honestly makes me sick to my stomach to think of)

We got together the next day to 'discuss' what had happened. Bad idea. More physical stuff happened, but no intercourse.

We decided to stop the PA part because it "wasn't right", but kept the EA part alive and well... (this was how i justified it in my puny brain... that I wasn't having a PA, therefore I wasn't having an A).

I moved out to "think" (and continue my EA-- spending way too much time with OM).

All the while, setting my H up for failure over and over again and thinking about how awful he was in my head. Thinking our problems were unfixable. What an idiot I was.

So yeah, you've hit the nail on the head, POM. I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out above, and if you've got any more questions for me, fire away.

What made you finally give up on your WW? I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you guys. Or maybe I'm not... sometimes the BH is better off without the WW anyways-- which it sounds like might be the case in your sitch. I'll have to read up.

E.

I didn't know that you were my first post! Kinda ironic! And I agree that it is better to not have kids get caught up in this mess. They are truly the innocent victims.

Yes, it did go beyond an EA. He kissed me after I dropped him off one day, and then later that week it got more physical, but not intercourse. No further than that-- that was how I justified continuing the EA part-- with heavy flirting.

Status of my M now... a heck of a lot better than a year ago. I think after a year of hard, hard, hard work (and an armor of steel on my part), H and I are on the right track, and I'm more confident in saying we are going to get past this. It took a year for me to be able to say that though. And really in the past three months (maybe four, since probably the beginning of June) is when I first started having confidence in us again, when I first started seeing my H letting his guard down again, when the really bad fights stopped, when he started being accountable for his behavior again... etc.

We are not out of the woods, and we both still have bad days. And we haven't gotten to the point where I believe it is behind us. I had a bad day just earlier this week-- and ranted on a thread in "In Recovery". I still have bad days where I want to throw in the towel, and I'm sure he does too. Its just that now we are taking those days as a passing feeling, and not the overall trend, you know?

We are finally working together, and addressing the original problems in our relationship.

It wasn't easy. I had to make all the hard changes at first, and not expect ANY from him. I had to do it to save the relationship, and "prove" that I could do it, under any circumstances. I went entirely transparent, even tho he never even asked me to-- I just did it. Changed all the passwords, handed it to him, and walked away. I know he checked a lot at first, but I don't think he checks that often anymore. That's progress.

His anger seems to be subsiding. He's affectionate more often. It was a hard wave to ride. It wasn't fun. But, it was something I owed to him.

Jennifer told me 80% of the healing occurs in the first year, 20% in the second year. We just got done with our first year of recovery (I came home in July of 07, but I wouldn't say that I was fully on board/accepting responsibility until September-ish, so maybe a little less than a year?). And I think so far she's right.

So, I'm cautiously optimistic. 6 months ago, H was looking at jobs out of town, intending on moving there without me-- he actually interviewed. But he never left. and for a long time he never talked about 'our future'. I never pushed it. But, just recently HE'S BEEN brining up OUR FUTURE. Where we want to move next (in about a year, we plan to move), what sorts of jobs we both want, etc. Its him bringing this up, and I see that as a huge plus. That means he's thinking about "our" future and not just "his" future.

Cautiously optimistic. If I had to put a number to it, I'd say we have a 75% chance of making it now.

E.

I have kids w/ my WW ages 4 and 7. If it weren't for them, I'D BE LONG GONE. That would make it so much easier. I must confess, she'd probably would have just left me long before the affair had there been no kids anyway.

Six years ago I had an A with my HS b/f. An 18 month PA. Two years after d-day and after two years of no contact, I met the same OM accidentally and spoke to him. I met him again three times over the next two weeks, twice when he approached me in the street and once when I met him for a premeditated drink. After that drink I told him that NC was now in place for life. I didn't tell my H because I was frightened he would leave and because I was a lily-livered coward who couldn't even see that I had restarted the A. He was told by someone from this board. For the two and half years, since that time, I have definitely not "spoken one way and acted another".


Bully for you. I am completely indifferent to you until you launch into one of your tirades against me. Then I enjoy them for the comic relief they are.


I'd just LOVE to hear the rationale behind this. I can see it would be even more comic relief. :crosseyedcrazy:


That was the only reason I could come up with for why you seemed to have such an issue with me. You don't like my postings? Don't read 'em.

AWH and introvert,

I hope this exchange is helping you guys. Eeeyore's input about her BH being strong and taking a stand couldn't be more important or crucial.


Eeeeyore,

Very good that we agree to disagree, though I don't think we're disagreeing all that much.

I commend you for earning the F and putting in the effort in your marriage. I really believe the hard work will pay off for you because you'll both emerge from this stronger and with a likely affair proof marriage.

Why? Because you estblished boundaries you didn't have before which made you susceptible to cheat.

We're ALL vulnerable.

There was a woman in my squadron that was a fellow pilot. She was a very cool woman and I found myself attracted to her. I stayed AWAY!

I kept everything to work stuff only with her.

We deployed together and I would only be around her if others were. I didn't want to play with that fire at all.

She actually volunteered to keep an eye on my ex while we were married and she was very much wayward. We never did it, but she offered to go to a club and watch her.

I did ask her to go swing dancing with me once the divorce was official, but I was a such an emotional wreck that I knew and she knew that she was going as a friend and as a squadronmate.

You asked why I gave up on WW?

I didn't. My story is a warning to BHs who think that appeasement will get them anywhere.

I came home from the war and was told that night by my WW that she wanted a D.

I was devastated. The next day I discovered her myspace page where she was flirting online with guys and was advertising herself as divorced when she wasn't.

I confronted her right away, but I got the standard wayward dribble of "it's just to make friends" and a ton of blameshifting. Things like:

It's just a place to make friends.

You don't want me to have friends.

You're irrationally jealous.

I'm going to make guy friends and you have to accept that.

You're paranoid.

I can't be with someone who spies on me.

I can't trust you. (that one always makes me laugh).

I put a keylogger on the computer and went in there and discovered the truth. She had gone out with 5 guys in 2 weeks and one of them got physical. It was basically a ONS that didn't go all the way but went very very far.

She was also having an EA with one of the guys, though she would deny that. She was attracted to this guy.

I confronted all of them, but I messed up everything after that.

I was weepy and whiny. I wasn't strong. I cowered when she showed her anger. I was afraid to talk about what was happening and what she did and she gave me grief for trying.

We went house shopping during this time and I hung up to all hope that this was a good sign.

She was actually setting me up legally. Keeping me quiet while setting the table for her exit.

I reported to my leadership because I was a wreck and I started getting help and support from my friends and the base.

I decided to get out of the AF and was making the commitment to try to save my marriage. Leaving the AF was a huge deal because I was a pilot and it is all I ever wanted to do since I was a kid. But I wanted to save my marriage.

I don't think she liked that I was taking such huge steps to try to save my marriage. She told me that "the only way we can have a chance is if we divorce". I was crushed.

But I believed her.

And I went along with it. MB posters tried to warn me. But I loved her and believed her and felt she was telling me the truth.

We went on dates and she kept me thinking that we'd be together before long and that there was hope.

I was told, "I'm so optimistic that I'm leaving the Christmas stuff with you."

And I bought it.

We divorced just one month after I got home. I signed a no contest DIY divorce with no representation or advice. I kept joint legal and let her have primary of the kids. She kept almost all our stuff, which was basically the tings worth keeping. I kept very little. It was the stuff she didn't want, the crappy mattress from the guest room, and the Christmas stuff.

I agreed to move to this area despite not having any family.

I hung on to the hope we'd reconcile and was constantly looking for signs that it would happen. That wasn't the case at all and she started dating right away. This was obviously very hard on me.

I lived with two of her former friends who took me in because I was unemployed. I got a job and started to put my life back together, but the nightmare was just starting.

She started controlling when and where I could see the kids and I missed them the most.

So I wisened up and got a lawyer and filed to get some sort of custody arrangement. We settled and it was a good agreement, but no sooner was the ink dry than she moved her bf in with her. I would have never signed the agreement if I had known she was going to do this. I had a problem with it from a moral standpoint and as a poor example to the kids.

But she didn't even bother to tell me his name. I had to go through my lawyer to get his name. The response to my question about his name was false accusations. She accused me of taking showers with my daughter.

This was devastating. But it was what killed the little bit of hope I had and the remaining feelings of love. She did more to help me move forward than anyone and it was through a despicable act of falsely accusing me of doing things with my daughter that I wasn't doing.

I went right into the anger phaze at that point and I viewed what she did as a really underhanded attempt to win custody with false allegations of inappropriage behavior.

I took immediate legal action and I think the intensity of my response convinced her it was a good idea to back off from pursuing that road. She suddenly was saying she wasn't accusing me of anything but was merely trying to understand things my daughter was supposedly saying.

So you asked me why I gave up on WW. Well, she was an exww who was living with a guy and was making false accusations against me. It was enough to help me along through the stages of grief.

I took her to court again when she decided to up and move again just after I made the commitment to live near my kids.

She changed everything on me. She has a real sleazebag lawyer now who continued to take the low road she's been on.

The good news is that the court didn't buy his bs. I didn't get to keep the kids in schools here in MD, but my rights as a father have been secured, at least for now, and I've been given a pretty significant amount of time with the kids.

We still have a trial, if we go that route, but I'm hoping we can take a different path before then.

So that's my story.

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for my kids and would live near family and have people that love me much closer. But the sacrifice I make is for them.

So that's why i encourage intro and awh to bail if she stays wayward for too long. Life is too short. They're young. But if their WWes have the epiphany you do then they will win because a FWW is not likely to cheat again. But a FWW is one who understands she needs to establish boundaries and do the hard work to win back her H's trust.

The H has to committ to making changes as well and meet her EN's. Recovery is a two party process.

I'm no expert on recovery. I never made it there.

Pom, I hope you read my explanation about my circumstances and why people here say I cheated twice. It doesn't make what happened any better but there were not "TWO" OM's as iam maliciously implied.

I would also like to add there is another type of A you haven't mentioned. The old flame A.

Kiwi,

If you're working on yourself that's all that matters.

If he's forgiven you, that's what matters.

If you're working on recovery and on yourself then that's all that matters.

We are all works in progress.

You have a very good point about lost flames. They are powerful.

There is an ex of mine that I was very, very, very much in love with and it took me years to get over her.

She married and contacted me a few months after doing so. I was still very much in love with her and jumped at the chance to talk to her.

We stayed in contact for a long time and I finally realized she was having an emotional affair with me because she was unhappy with her H. She kept telling me she wanted to leave him and come to me.

But one day she said that she was trying to get pregnant, which was the epitome of cake eating and I started to see how wrong it was to keep talking to her.

I asked her why she would be doing that if she was going to divorce her H?

I finally told her to not contact me until and if she did divorce her H because talking to her was painful and wrong.

I loved her for a very long time.

I see now, however, that she had poor boundaries as well.

Danceswithanger,

I'm interested in hearing your story. You've shared a little and had some harsh words for me but that's ok.

You may feel I'm bitter, but who wouldn't have some degree of bitterness after being cheated on by the one person in the world that they were supposed to trust above all? Would you be bitter if someone took advantage of your love and trust to maneuver you into giving everything up while fooling them with false hope?

What if they kept you from your kids?

What if your love for that person grew while you were at war and you thought of her and the kids daily to comfort yourself only to learn she was flirting with men online?

So a little bit of bitterness in all BSes is a little understandable.

My ex is on her own path. She may or may not have addressed the issues that caused her to stray. I sure hope so for her new soon to be husband, but she was pretty unreceptive to the idea that destroying a family "because I'm not happy" isn't a reason to divorce and has never once apologized or owned up to her infidelity. It's always been "I decided the marriage was over, so it was ok."

Seriously, what kind of example does that set for a child? Bail when things get tough in your marriage?

Were you a BS or a WS?

So to address what you said about being bitter:

I respect all other's opinions on this board. I admire that intro and awh want to forgive their WWes. I don't fault them for wanting to do so. It's understandable. I wanted to forgive a woman who cheated on me while I was at war and contributed to the destruction of the only career I ever dreamed of having since I was a child. But I loved her and wanted to save my family.

So I understand why the feel as they do.

It would be great if it happens for them, but I'm encouraging them to not wait forever. There's a lot of life to live and women with morals and stability. You just have to look for them.

Thank you Pom, for listening.

I don't see you as bitter - I see someone wanting to protect other people from harm. There's quite a difference. But each situation is different and I think that's all everyone is saying. I wanted to protect my kids from any heartbreak but you just can't do that for people (unfortunately). I certainly pointed out all the pitfalls to them which is what you are doing.

My son had the same experience you did with an old flame. She called him the NIGHT before her wedding and said she really wanted to marry him but he didn't earn enough money. :RollieEyes: She absolutely threw him into a tailspin. *Insert nasty word for nasty women here*.

Thanks, Kiwi.

Ok. All we have left is to hear from introvert and danceswithanger and awh and we're all virtually singing Kumbaya together!

Ok, I kid. But I'm glad to know you don't think I'm bitter.

There's a tiny bit of bitterness with every BS. A certain saltiness.

Funny enough my earned callsign when I was deployed was Salty.

That old flame was HARD to get over. Most of my love for her was fantasy in my head. I found out later she was with her future husband at the same time she was with me.

We had a very intense and short relationship and it took me a long time to let go of this lost love.

She and I kept in contact as "friends" for a very long time. But it took its toll on me because I hung on to that love for a while.

Contact quickly ended when she became pregnant. I personally didn't want to talk to her anymore at that point. It was clear to me that she wasn't going to divorce and she was going to have a family and it was wrong to stay in contact. We talked on the phone all the time and it ended after she got pregnant.

This was 12 years ago and it is only after reading here on MB that I realized that it was an EA.

My ex fiance (a different woman) has contacted me in the last year and has wanted to get together with me. I told her there was no way I would do so while she was married. Haven't heard from her since.

Old flames are a big risk. That includes ex spouses. I've heard lots of stories on these boards of ex spouses hooking up when there's trouble in their new marriages.

No surprise that such a thing can happen. My mom says that embers remain where there was once a fire. Very true and exes can be dangerous for that reason.

Shirley Glass says old flames burn the brightest. They are very dangerous A's because there's not that "getting to know you" stage.

The OM was part of my family for 5 years when we were teenagers. My dad was his surrogate dad. Ironically, his father had left his mother and the four kids for the OW and never spoke to his mother again from the day he left (just through lawyers). He didn't contact the kids for over two years (they were all teenagers at the time). My dad stepped in as father figure. You'd think someone with that background would be totally against A's but he didn't seem to put the two things together. :RollieEyes:

Yes, you really DID have an EA with your old flame. Quite an intense one actually.

POM--

I'm usually not around here much on the weekends, but just wanted to let you know that I read your story this morning, and it broke my heart. FWIW, you will make another woman extremely lucky sometime in the future. You sound like a man of high moral standards, and a wonderful father, and I'm truly sorry to hear what you've gone through.

I don't think that "buying" into the "hope" that a WW gives the BH is all that uncommon, as you did. That's why I think the BH has got to get tough, and not wait too long. I WISH my H would have gotten tough on me SOONER. (of course, I didn't think that then, but that is hindsight speaking). I wish he would have cut me off financially, etc, etc (as is advocated on this board). But I played him, and he played along, and that extended the time I was out of the house and the A continued. Its not his fault. He just wanted the M back more than anything, and was willing to do anything, and I manipulated that pretty cruelly. Its about the worst thing you can do to someone-- take their biggest vulnerability and use it against them.

Keep your chin up Pom, you deserve better, and I believe you will GET better.

What's the deal with your kids? Do you have them now?

E.

**EDIT**

I recognize it was an EA. Didn't see it that way at the time.

Granted, she wasn't some random woman that I met off the street who happened to be married.

I LOVED her very intensely when we were dating. I have never loved anyone this much before or since.

So having her contact me again a year after we split was tough. She called me and told me she made a mistake in not marrying me and I fell for it 100% and was thinking she was going to leave her H who she had only been married 6 months to.

And I clung to that idea for a while.

We continued the EA for a long time after that. I clung to the hope she'd leave. It took a while to see that she wasn't doing that and was actually cake eating.

Her pregnancy stopped it. My mentality at the time (more open minded now) was that she was now pregnant and that I wasn't going to raise someone else's kid. I told her to fix her marriage and we cut off contact and haven't spoken since.

I think about her occasionally but I know now that I was in love with a fantasy and not reality. I also feel bad about the EA.

eeeyore,

Thanks for the sentiments. I appreciate them.

But I don't want you to think I am wallowing in bitterness. The past few months have been very good. My therapist is thrilled with the recent progress I've made since the case has ended (for the most part) and is so optimistic that we're down to bi weekly sessions now.

She told me she wishes she had video so I could see how I was before vs how I am now.

I believe it. People have commented.

I'm more cheerful. I talk A LOT less about the situation.

And the best sign: I really don't like to talk about the ex to others. I get questions asked about her motives or why this or that and I give dismissive answers along the lines of, "Who cares? We're never going to figure her out so who cares."

I find it a pain to talk about it.

Different on these forums, because we talk about infidelity here and we want to help the BSes and WSes who come here for answers.

As far as the kids go:

I posted it on my thread, but the judge gave me 3/4 weekends a month from Friday night till Monday morning and the entire summer with the exception of every other weekend.

It is an increase in the time I have now and it lets me do the two biggest things I wanted to do which was teach the kids Spanish and Catholicism.

In addition, it allows me to supplement what is a bad education in WV. WV has the 3rd worst school system in the country.

MD has the 3rd best.

But a little external supplementation will hopefully help offset that. Parental involvement will do so too, I hope.

The ex wanted sole physical and legal custody and her lawyer tried to portray me as being mentally unfit, which went nowhere fast.

They don't let mentally unfit people have top secret clearances and work at the Pentagon.

So I lost on the education front, but gained a good chunk of time with the kids and secured my rights as a father to be present in their lives.

I see this as the end of our case and a chance to start my life now. I've been looking into all kinds of things such as law school, music lessons, and soccer.

I'm going to see DC United play tonight and have volunteered to work the drink stand for the fan club at the tailgate. It's a good opoortunity to meet other people and I'm really looking forward to it.

**EDIT**

Iam, can you possibly rephrase whatever is getting edited by Revera in a respectful manner and withOUT DJ's so we can all see what you can bring to this discussion?

EDIT

I really don't why I'm bothering even addressing this. Wayward mindset? I had been a completely faithful wife for 28 years. Of course I blame myself for my A. I certainly don't blame my H. I would NOT have had an A with anyone but that particular OM. I don't quite see how hard that is to comprehend.

Are you saying I'd have found "someone" to have an A with if the old b/f hadn't turned up? You are very, very, very mistaken.

What "other issues" don't we see eye to eye on? Seriously, I'm interested.

**EDIT**

email me if any questions. Revera01@aol.com

Bump, without my obviously biased opinon about the OP

Maybe it's only me who believes the poster is in a fog.

A real WW would accept their responsibility, not blame an ex-BF for existing!