Great news! Thank for sharing.

ears, it sounds like you are doing some really good things, flexing your H&O muscles and letting go of the response! I'm glad to hear you caught yourself about to DJ yourself (your feelings don't matter enough yet) and your H (he won't want to go) and bringing it up to H to POJA, instead of just telling your dad no.

Thanks for the reminder about the Drive-By H&O also. Thanks to LA!!! That has been such an incredibly useful tool for me to learn.

Instead of posting another pity party for me and withdrawing into a resentful Giver, I've been reminded to keep up with the H&O; and if H isn't open, then I'll do the Drive-by variety. Thanks for linking that here too! I agree we need it.

Tracing back my payoff, jayne, I find that I'm in between Conflict and Withdrawal a lot of the time.

But when I hit that decision moment, deciding whether to be O&H or not, some times, I don't want to be happy with H, because like in Pepperband's thread, my Taker is telling me to get out, that there is too much water under the bridge, that these are problems that I'm just not equipped to deal with. Problems like the problem drinking and the AOs that I really don't want to accept. In all honesty, do I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who is going to be drunk week in and week out? No, even if he's handsome and caring and loving the rest of the time. I'd rather be alone than live with that, at those times.

In my heart, I can feel my love for my H, and his for me, and I know that I can make different choices. I need to be consistent until I can build trust in myself that I can tackle these issues in a way that values my integrity.

I am working on my own issues - my anger, and my overweight. I think that I'm doing well with my anger, especially over time, being O&H in the moment. It's still an issue with my family, though, and we're going to discuss that in MC. They say I'm yelling when I don't think I am. I bought a tape recorder for the Tools self-made self-help tapes, and I keep it in my purse, but I keep forgetting to get it and turn it on during these situations, so I can play it with the MC or IC and see if it's me being too forceful or my family getting upset that I find something unnacceptable.

I've been losing weight overall, but VERY slowly, a pound a month, because I haven't been sticking to my plan of action goals consistently. I re-started today, meeting my goals, so I'm trying to build consistency again. This one, I know I can do.

Thank you ears...

I think I'm just a little behind you on the trail, keeping you in sight and following; I'm encountering similar twists and turns in the path. Thanks for sharing your insights.

jayne, wow, it's hard to concentrate on work today, with a tropical storm marching towards the area, even though it's not even a hurricane yet. I hope this isn't cat's week here!

These posts this weekend and last week really help me understand that it all makes sense, of course we feel disconnected, given our choices and behaviors, and so on. It gives me hope that as our behaviors, even just my behaviors change, that H and I will be buddies again.

This extended California controversy really took a toll on us over time, and I can imagine that your H's extended underemployement and now this move might be doing the same to your family. But it comes to the point that I think, all right, situations are going to be what they are, but I can't keep feeling like this. How is my attitude? What nice things can I do for myself and my family today? Because my attitude is my decision, you know?

It makes me think, too, about the spiral staircase analogy, that we hit the same posts, feels like the same place, but it's not. I can tell you, the highs and lows are much less than they were. Is that your experience, too?

Aeri's courage to share her story really encourages me, too. H actually took a time-out when he needed it this morning. Yesterday, we had DD12's LA manager as a guest here, she was out here on business, and she brought up the move. I said we were looking at the summer, and H said, well, at the latest, depending upon how [his] job goes. I told him this morning, our agreement was to go when school ends next summer, and I am not going earlier. He said, well, he may go earlier, and I told him, I see that as him breaking our agreement. He said, we need to stop talking about this, and I said, sure, that is okay, I've said what I had to. His response was to leave, and I think that's a HUGE step up from getting into AOs and DJs. I am working to reinforce to myself this staying O&H and present when the heat was on.

Change a few words here and there, and I think we had this same argument earlier today.


Yes, I went to the mirror several times today and told myself my attitude is my decision... Thanks for your optimism. You may be right about stuff taking a toll on us too.

And the spiral staircase analogy, I'd forgotten that really cool image.

You and aeri are reminders of hope.

This has been a bizarre weekend. I haven't come online and ranted or melted down, but I have been going through some stuff... and somehow every time I came here, y'all were feeding me what I needed, even without me asking.

I still think y'all bugged our car. lol

Maybe after I get some sleep and some work done, I'll update on my thread and ask how many times must you try H&O before withdrawing, how to not be resentful about giving when kids are involved, etc...

jayne, I think as long as he's not pushing or shoving you and the kids anymore, the rest can all be worked through. I have faith that it will work it out together, but even when I have doubts, I can look at Seabird and the life he's made for his kids and I feel secure knowing that even Plan B can be an amazing life for kids.

Jyane, I hear you about the withdrawal after sharing your O&H. The sharing is for YOU, hon. Because your O&H matters. Your H may not hear you today, because he's trying to reach you and feels you don't hear what he's trying to say, whether you do or not. Not a reflection on you.

I heard this song this morning, and it really reached me, how important to seek to understand my H and my family instead of acting on frustration when I don't feel heard:

Give Me Your Eyes by Brandon Heath
Looked down from a broken sky
Traced out by the city lights
My world from a mile high
Best seat in the house tonight
Touched down on the cold black tile
Hold on for the sudden stop
Breathe in the familiar shock
Of confusion and chaos
All those people going somewhere?
Why have I never cared?

Chorus:
Give me your eyes for just one second
Give me your eyes so I can see
Everything that I keep missing
Give me your love for humanity
Give me your arms for the broken hearted
Was it far beyond my reach?
Give me your heart for the once forgotten
Give me your eyes so I can see
again
again
yeah
yeah

Step out on a busy street
See a girl and our eyes meet
Does her best to smile at me
To hide whats underneath
Theres a man just to her right
Black suit and a bright red tie
To ashamed to tell his wife
He's out of work
He's buying time
Are those people going somewhere?
Why have I never cared?

Chorus

Ive Been there a million times
A couple of million eyes
Just moving past me by
I swear I never thought that I was wrong
Well I want a second glance
So give me a second chance
To see the way you see the people all alone

I hesitated post about this yesterday, in a little shock, because I was not expecting this. My H has been really angry with me, and telling me how angry I am, when I wasn't feeling that way. It felt like nit-picking or projection, so I felt like something was up that I didn't know. I don't check H's work emails often, but I thought yesterday I should.

I saw one reply from yesterday to his coworker where she described how ill she was, and he said he was feeling bad, too, but that he hoped she felt better soon, "sweetey." I feel very depressed just seeing that, kicked in the stomach. This is the same coworker who concerned me last year, emailing him that "One Is the Loneliest Number" and that she missed having cowhen he was working remotely from home instead of driving into the office. He still does work from home for the most part.

I raised my concern to my H the next morning, that I feel like there is something I don't know, and I wish he would tell me. That he deletes his browser history. He explained that he does this to eliminate the pop-ups that come from the porn sites. That one even came up when he was standing with DD12.

He got angry saying I was going to ask him to stop the internet porn, and ended the conversation. But was nice again the rest of the day. I had let go of the response, and was prepared to be pleasant even if he didn't bounce back. But I've got to say, it does feel mor functional in the house that I can share my O&H without it turning into days of tension in front of the kids.

Thanks jayne, for letting me email you yesterday. I had an IC session last night already scheduled, and he also affirmed that I wasn't nuts for checking, and that it would be wise to keep my eyes open about this. It helped to hear that again from the outside.

We are working on some really specific things in MC for the next 10 weeks, so I'm going to call the MC outside that time, and fill her in on my concerns, and how I'm addressing them, so that she's fully informed, and in case she has any further suggestions.

ears, thanks for giving the update. I was wondering and thinking of you this morning, when I saw you hadn't replied to my last email. (Did you see it?) That's ok, I was just concerned.

I'm glad you're going to let your MC know. And I see a huge positive in that you were able to bring up a concern, and let go of the response, and have it not turn into days of tension.

What do you think of installing a keylogger?

jayne, I thought about a keylogger. I am thinking against it today because this is one of many issues, these comments with this coworker, which may or may not mean something is going on. The internet porn and lack of physical intimacy, which may or may not be related. These don't feel like boundary issues for me, in that I mean I refuse to live with this in my life. If there is one thing that impacts me the most, that takes him away from the marriage the most, it's the problem drinking. That is, unless I'm wrong and there is something with this coworker.

I'm sorry for not replying, I thought I had, then I just looked and saw I had not. I do get confused in this thing combining MB with what I learn in Alanon. Because in Alanon we keep the focus on ourselves, and I don't hear anyone talking about snooping. And like I said, what I am told is that if there is something wrong, I should pray that it will become obvious to me. And that's pretty much what I'm doing. Obeserving in small ways, like the cell records online and the email when it's left open. The cell doesn't have a lot of calls for someone who works from home, and mostly short calls, and the 20+ minute calls are not to the same number or same day or same city. He helped me set up Quicken, and that didn't show anything way out of the ordinary, either. And he tries to not go into the office when he can avoid it, which would give him lots of unaccounted time. All this together makes me feel better that I'm not under-reacting.

It confuses me that so little shows up in the little observing that I do, because I do think that there IS something, and I am hoping this intensive weekly MC time will help us figure out what that is. Maybe it is just so much resentment about me not going along with him on this moving thing at this time.

No worries about not replying... it helps me feel less guilty about when I don't have time to reply

But, you've had this worry for quite some time now... wouldn't it be nice to go ahead and install a keylogger and find out once and for all? So hopefully you can put your mind at ease? (Best case) Or, worst case, at least you will know what you're dealing with... it sounds like you're enduring crazy-making behavior right now. Not that he is intentionally gas-lighting, but with all the wondering you're going through, it's pretty crazy-making.

I know you're saying the keylogger doesn't address the real boundary issues for you, of the problem drinking... unless there's really something there and/or there's enough that is taking him away from the M and the family.

But it's the uncertainty about the "unless" part that's driving you crazy. Wouldn't it be nice to rule it out for sure?

I don't really see the good in simply praying that you will see whatever you need to see... because you *are* seeing something, you've posted about red flags before... and to continue to not check them out seems like ignoring the insight you prayed for. KWIM?

Like the shipwrecked guy who prayed to be rescued, and ignored the fishing boat, the coast guard and the helicopter, saying he was waiting for God to save him... and then in heaven when he asked God why He hadn't saved him, God said, "Whaddaya mean? I sent a fishing boat, a helicopter and a Coast Guard,,,"

This. All of this. I was thinking the same thing. Even the joke.

EO - Is it possible that you don't want to do the snooping because you fear what you might find or see?

Basically rule of thumb is that when there are choices to be made, it's best to make them with as much available information as possible.

Wow, jayne, Seabird, when you put it that way...

I have had concerns for a long time, and it would be worth it for the peace of mind. I do that a lot, wonder if I'm making a big deal out of nothing, ignoring as much of my uneasiness as I can, until things get so big I'm scared to deal with them.

My biggest fear IS what if I did find something? But I checked the cell records, the email anyhow. Took me a day to work up the courage for each. My IC said I needed to dig deeper, too. And he's usually a "wait and see what happens" kind of person.

H's biggest long-term gripe with me is the AS, and that's not something I can fix overnight. I know he wasn't happy with my pattern before, of lose quickly for a few weeks, and then taper off and lose more slowly. I jumped back into my weight loss plan on all cylinders this last week. I'm thinking, better to find out what happens when I'm an attractive option to him.

I will consider the keylogger. I'm an IT person, it's not something that I couldn't figure out, and I have the access to his PC.

EO, the internet porn and lack of intimacy (both physical and otherwise) may go hand and hand. Lack of physical intimacy was because my husband was using porn to self medicate. When I discovered, we were down to once every two months for SF. Please note, he wasn't looking because of my physical attributes, he was looking because of his issues.

I also found that the effects of his porn use for us, looked like an affair. The lack of non-SF intimacy, me saying I love you but I'm not in love with you.

I'm not suggesting your husband has a problem with porn. However, like the others have said, I'd keep my eyes open, given your concern of his drinking.

Hi, eo, I'm back from vacation. Wanted to add that, since he feels there's so much pressure coming from you, any interactions he has with that woman, or any other, probably 'feels' good, because there's no judgment or expectations or baggage when dealing with her. Kind of like comfort food. Just a brief feel good moment, when he feels he's not the d*ck in the relationship, kwim?

I, too, would do the keylogger, though. Know why? Because if you find something, you can protect yourself. And if you DON'T find something, it will change your attitude with him, and THAT is helping HIM. So you're doing it for him, too.

Oooooh, great points, cat!!! There, that's the best argument for the keylogger yet. Do it and get it one so you an put it out of your mind.

How are things?

Cat, I hear you, about the comfort food thing. I do admire H a lot. But I undertand what you mean. At work, they tell him he walks on water. I tell him that at home, too, but I'm supposed to feel like that, KWIM? So it means more from them. I do what I can and let got of the response.

I hear ya about the logger. Haven't done it yet, didn't seem like urgent, could wait until Monday. He stopped erasing the total history sinc Wednesday when we spoke. I don't really think there will be anything there I wouldn't have guessed at. But I could be wrong, so I'll do it. I have a passed-out drunk on my couch, again, and I'm not doing squat about it. Loving detachment.

If I find internet porn, I don't think that's anything that I can do anything about but loving detachment, either. Mumof2, thanks for weighing in, I agree there may a link there. I don't see any options of action there, though. I can't make someone change their preference to partnered sex. Maybe there's something I'm missing there.

My sister left my mom and step-dad's house yesterday after a physical fight wth my step-dad. She says she okay, she's staying with a friend. I hate myself for backing myself into a corner where I can't even offer her to stay here if she needs, or a small amount of cash to get her back on her feet. She's 18, and I helped raise her from when she was a newborn. I remember being kicked out at 18, with a part-time job, not a full-time job. I had help, from my grandpa, that she doesn't have. I can't call my mom, either, I have been crying and am afraid I'd start crying again. I am glad that my sister has some true-blue friends that will help her.

I asked H for a hug, a shoulder, and he gave me one, but he kept repeating that she can't stay here, wanting me to repeat that back. I felt so abandoned, that's all he thinks about, asserting his authority. I know he's stronger than that. I know he's a caring man, capable of putting his own fears aside. Me and my darn expectations. I called a friend instead, and feel a little better. At least he's asleep now instead of kicking me when I'm down.

Im sorry to sound so down. Really, there were a lot of good things this weekend, too. Getting together with friends, spending FC and RC time with H and the kids.

*hugs* I'm so sorry, ears, I had no idea it was that bad... My H drinks wine every night at dinner, but not to the passing out stage ever, and somehow I thought yours was similar only just a bit more so, with occasional problem-drinking. I'm sorry for not paying more attention to that aspect of things...

Good for you with the loving detachment. That must be really frustrating, dealing with the evening routine etc. with him just lying there.

I'll go rea the rest of what you wrote now.