rl, we were fortunate, and still are, to have an amazing MC who really understands this whole infidelity crap. He never once told me that I need to get over it, move on, whatever. He honored what I felt I needed to heal, and he respectfully worked with H to help him to help me.

This is what I would do before you dump your MC. Any good therapist should be able to accept the difficult questions and concerns of a client. You are the customer. I would sit down with your MC and ask her/him if he understands the trama aspect of what occurs to a BS. Ask if they are aware that the majority of BSs experience PTSD? So hwat exactly does the MC expect in regards to your healing, along with the recovery of the M?

Also, if I'm remembering correctly, your H had a SA. What's happening in that area? My friend who experienced a SA H and infidelity had to wait a while for the M issues because her H had to deal with his SA issues.

Every BS needs to do a little soul searching to figure out what they need to heal. If you know you need comforting, and your H is unable to comfort you, then he needs to figure out how to change this dynamic before it's too late. My H's guilt and shame made it difficult for him to do certain things. However, he worked hard to get to the point of putting my healing above his shame.

RLT,

WACKO MC!!

If you poked out your H's eyeballs, wouldn't you be responsible for your H's blindness? Now your H would be responsible for how he coped and got around being blind. He would be responsible for the challenge of continuing to operate in society or give up sitting and listening to the radio.

If, after finding out about the A, you hung yourself, would not your H be responsible for your suicide?

Your H is responsible for ripping your heart out through your chest, and I guess you are responsible for keeping the feelings going WITHOUT IT!!!

You H IS responsible for how you now feel. If the circumstances did not occur would you still be feeling the same way?

Your MC is too much into the touchy/feely intellectual "you make yourself feel how you want to feel" bullpoop.

And your H is smiling like the Chesire cat. (I wonder if they got together and after some $$ changed hands your MC came out with this bull)

Plus your H is showing unmanly character by not manning up to the hurt he did to you.

IMHO

kirk

There's a technique that might help you deal with this that I just read about, in a book called "Communication Miracles for Couples", specifically "A PI SWAP" and "Plan B" (no, not THAT Plan B, LOL). You may have that book already, but if not, let me know if you're interested in the details.

CV, FWS has been working on his SA issues via counseling and weekly meetings.

He was doing pretty good, I would say, with going. Back in September, this was one of the boundaries I put in place ... that he get help.

His counselor group meetings ended a couple of months ago, due to lack of attendance. Then, he just sort of stopped going to everything altogether.

His excuse was, lack of time, lack of money to start in a new group.

I called him on it. He didn't like it too much. Tough. I didn't think 8 months of help and he was cured after a 25 years of being an SA.

We are also having one heck of a time with the inlaw fallout issues. He feels it's time he re-establish contact. I, however, see NO change in him regarding his issues with them.

According to him, (and his counselor, which I HEARD him say)- his parents did not support the Affair - they only supported THEIR SON - in whatever he does.

Call me stupid, but I'm not really seeing a difference here. According to them, his parents were only trying to protect him.
OK, so the kids and me be damned - as long as he was happy. And I'm supposed to be OK with this.

No, says, counselor, I don't have to have a relationship with them. But I should not stand in the way of FWS having a relationship with his own parents, even if they are evildoers who would STILL love to see this marriage destroyed.

As one good person told me, they were not just enablers. They were abusers.

Thus, I am not bending on this one.

The counselor is a [censored].

At least he can be replaced, though...the in-laws are another problem...

No. MiM. Never heard of the book. More info, please?

krusht,

I am 47 years old and never smoked in my life.

Three years ago, I enter Affair Land and I start smoking like a crazy woman. It relieved stress.

He watched me do it; light up in a cloud of confusion because I didn't know about the affair, per se, just that my life was spinning out of control.

Anyway, 3 years later and I can't put them down. But he's not responsible for any of it, not one bit.

The name of the book is "Communication Miracles for Couples", but Jonathan Robinson.

The technique, referred to as "A PI SWAP", is one that can be used if you want to get your partner to really change. It basically involves using Appreciation, Positive Intention (start any encounter where you want to get your partner to change on a positive note), Say What your are having difficulty with, and Asking your Partner about how to improve the situation (it's usually best to ask for your partner's ideas first and then asking for permission before proceeding to express your own ideas). You discuss and agree on a way forward.

"Plan B" is what you do when your partner fails to hold to his part of the agreement. You go over the facts of what happened with him in a non-judgmental tone, then ask if there's anything that you both could do differently to make sure that the agreement holds. If the response is something along the lines of he won't forget to do it again, avoid chastising him about forgetting it before, but ask and discuss with him what he thinks would be an acceptable consequence to any future failure on his part to hold to his agreement.

That's about it in a brief summary. The book goes into a bit more detail with examples, etc.

RLT,

I think there are a few things at play here.

One is just compensation. You need him to make it up to you...SOMEHOW...

But how? What would you like him to do? Can you tell him what you need him to do? Does he understand what it is your are telling him?

And a real biggie in my book...

Is what you are telling him you want from him really what you want and what will help you to heal or is it just a way to get even for what he has done?


I understand your frustration with his family. They supported him during the A. Their actions were reprehensible to you. I get that. If my wife's step mother called and said she needed help desperately...

I'd tell her to call her son and leave my wife and I alone.

If her friends that knew about the affair and did not inform me were to need something...

They would have to do without.

At least that is how I feel about it right now.

But what if one of them were near death. Would I still feel the same or would I allow for forgiveness?

So you don't like his family.

You do not trust them to be friends of your marriage any longer.

You feel cheated by them because they did not side with you but with their son (even thought you were in the right and he was in the wrong)

You don't have to like them.

But to expect him to not love them might be too much to ask.

Is it because of your fear over your boundary being breached? Or is it out of retribution?

Compensation is not the same as retribution. One is paid because it is owed. The other is extracted because it is demanded. The first is an act of acceptance and forgiveness. The second is an act of revenge and vigilante justice.

In the USSR during the cold war, retribution for speaking against anything the government did was a way of life. The USSR is no more.

During WWII, the Nazis would extract retribution, sometimes 1000 lives for each life taken by the underground in Poland. The Nazis lost the war.

I'm all for boundaries and fully understand the need for boundary enforcement. But what kind of escalating enforcement can there be when the first enforcement of a boundary that is now in place but was not during the affair or before it happened is never seeing one's parents ever again.

The way to tell a good boundary from a bad one is to ask yourself the purpose of the stated boundary.

If you have and state and protect that boundary in order to safeguard yourself, it is a valid boundary. If your boundary is designed, stated or enforced to change someone else's behavior in any way, it is not a valid boundary but an attempt to control them.

So when he acts like a jerk (which guys tend to do anyway) you can walk away and let him know that you will not tolerate his behavior. That is establishing and enforcing your boundaries.

But to then tell him that he can't do something because he hurt you and must pay the price, is not a boundary enforcement at all. It is an act of revenge.

What I am getting at is that eventually you must have a way to allow him to see his folks. To deny him access to his family forever is not an act of a loving boundary, no matter the reason or cause of your pain over it. The BEST you can hope for in such a situation is for him to not hate you and only resent you as his family slips away one by one without him ever seeing them again. The WIN for you is for him to be miserable and will NOT lead to healing for you. It will NOT bring you peace, but strife down the road. It will NOT make you feel better, only make him unhappy...

With NO way for you to make it up to him should his family die in a car crash tomorrow...

The problem with boundaries that control other people is that they have their own boundaries that prevent you from doing just that. Sooner or later, this is something that needs to be discussed, addressed and resolved. Failure to address this issue WILL lead to an end to your marriage eventually. If that is your hard and fast boundary, state it as such right now and let him decide if he is willing to live with it. If not, that will be your boundary enforcement.

You can never establish trust by control. It must be by allowing freedom. Trust cannot be earned in a box. It is only outside the box that we can become trustworthy.

I have no doubt he still has much work to do.

Can you tell him what that is? Can you spell it out for him?

He lets you stew in your own juices when you are down or angry because of some trigger. What should he do instead? What specifically is it that he is doing wrong and how can he do it right? If the answer is "I don't know," then the problem is yours and not his. He can't do what he doesn't know.

He needs a good accountability partner more than he needs a counselor, IMO. He needs someone to ask him at any moment, "Have you done ___?" "Are you doing the right thing and avoiding the wrong?"

I know you are still in shock over finding out all you did, over learning that the man you thought you knew was a fake and a liar. I get that. BTDT and got scars all over from it. What you need to ask now is "What must happen for me to feel safe and happy?" If the answer is more than he is willing to pay, it might be time to call it a day. Or if the answer is, "do this now and I'll change my mind later" he can't hope to win. Or if the answer is "I don't know." then you have to figure out what the answer is first. Because he can't do what you need from him in order to heal if you can't know it yourself.

It probably means that there is NOTHING that will ever make it good enough in your eyes and so the decision to continue as is or call it to an end is at hand.

You guys are in my thoughts and prayers often...

Mark

Your MC is an ahole. If you husband is standing there like a smiling idiot while he sees you suffering I'm kind of at a loss for words, at least encouraging ones. If you need help from your husband and he doesn't want to give you any reassurance, comfort, or whatever you need tell him you need x, y, and z from him. Is his brain still foggy or is this the way he is? What does your husband say about his affairs and what he wants in your marriage?

Mark, you sound like FWH's counselor.

Hey, what if I died in car crash tomorrow? Would it be too late for him to make it up to ME?

Excuse me, Mark - were you comparing me to the Nazis?

RLT,

When you make a boundary, it goes around you. Holds you to it and you predetermine the progressive boundary enforcements. Boundaries control you...and only you can.

When you make a boundary around someone else, then you are controlling (not real--can't really control anyone else but you); same as an SD...if you don't do/do this, then I won't do/will do this.

For SA counseling--what was your predetermined boundary enforcement for eight months if at any point he stopped attended meetings/group sessions? See, you chose to stay in the marriage and recover based on him having NC, going to MC and IC, and working on the marriage. What did you require of yourself (your boundary around you) if he made contact, stopped MC, stopped IC and SA meetings, or stopped working on the marriage?

Not controlling...what your marriage requires to recover.

Two years into recovery? Are you saying the MC is holding you responsible for your own feelings today? Not back then...right now? FWH isn't in an A right now and you have feelings as if he continued to do so?

Are you responsible to yourself for your responsible recovery, for what was and isn't now? Same for his desire for his FOO...do you require them to own what they did, why they did it and that they won't do it again, as well?

Sounds reasonable to me...none of you are how you were then...and if you are living in the past and in the future...if he doesn't do this now then he'll do that soon...you're not present, nor are your feelings. They are coming from the past and the future.

For SA, I'm with you that eight months isn't nearly enough. My DH has been in SA counseling for 3.5 years...it's in the long haul. However he chose those weekly sessions rather than SA meetings. And your FWH did both.

Maybe that's the overlap...your betrayal feels fresh again because you don't want FWH to WANT to see his family...might mean to you that he "doesn't really get it."

Maybe what you really want is to divorce now...you have discovered you cannot heal with him as your spouse...that forgiveness, acceptance (the last step in grieving great loss) is not within your reach...that you cannot separate those from approval and absolving.

Because they are different. Maybe this boundary enforcement around you, holding you to honesty and respect, is for you to separate, after giving it your all for two years?

Would this scenario be closer to what your MC was responding to: You say, "I'm hurting from your betrayal today. I was just thinking about when you..." and your FWH says, "I'm so sorry. I'm not responsible for you feeling that awful right now because you are back there, and I cannot undue one moment of terrible pain for you. I know the consequences keep coming...and I cannot stop them. I cannot change how you feel right now. I'm really sorry."

Separating the responsible for from the to is really important. I see it as treacherous ground--your actions impacted the marriage and still do, as well as his...greatest pain possible, I believe. Pre-A, did you hold him responsible for your feelings? Did he make you angry, feel hurt and fear, joy and wonder, love?

Early on in his justifications, did he say he had the A because you made him feel inadequate, that you didn't love him, make him feel loved? Not trying to hurt you...trying to unravel this a bit...because it isn't all or nothing...either you cause each other to feel or don't ever cause each other to feel...it's the middle ground of acknowledging and validating real feelings, not doing that which you know will hurt your spouse...and I've found factoring in that usually that means what won't hurt your own self-respect, as well.

I believe recovery is hard for both BS and WS...it isn't one-sided pain, struggle...there isn't more to heal on one side or the other...it's two people choosing each other and the marriage, nearly against all odds...neither one the bad guy or good guy...two humans following the rules of marriage now, acting from their own choice to love the other, and honor the marriage, even when they don't feel like honoring their spouse.

LA

RLT,

OK bad comparison.

I'm not trying to say he should get off Scott free or that he shouldn't have to earn his F stripes or even that he doesn't have things that need to be addressed and resolved in order to become the husband you deserve.

I could set a boundary that my wife can never talk to a man ever again...

It would mean that I would be forever hunting for violation since it really isn't possible to enforce other than by divorce. It means that recovery is impossible because I will never allow it to happen because there will never be enough that she could do. It would remove her incentive to try.

I'm really just asking that you examine your motives in this and see if you are doing it as punishment for your husband or for the in-laws or if it is something that will never be negotiable in your eyes. Is there no way for his family to ever be allowed into your presence, for them to earn their way into forgiveness? Is it worth divorcing your husband to you? Or do you expect him to forever be unhappy because he hurt you? If that is so, then recovery isn't what you seek, but revenge. Making him sorry he returned to you will not make him sorry that he strayed.

If there is a way that you could see allowing him to have contact with his family, then he needs to know what that way is. It has to be spelled out.

If the only way is for them to do something, then THAT needs to be told to THEM in some way.

And I am NOT defending what he did. He REALLY screwed up BIG time. He really doesn't deserve a second chance. But if you are giving him a second chance, then he needs to have a chance to succeed. If he is always going to be a failure because there will never be enough that he can do, the incentive to improve vanishes like smoke in a wind storm. No carrot and all stick means only continued beatings...

I'm not even saying that it is time to move on, just that you might want to at least revisit the family issues at some point.

I'm at work and have been trying to write this for 2 hours, so I'd better go for now.

Mark

Mark, without getting into a lot of detail, all I can say is ... wow. It is blatently obvious to me, time and time again, how much FWH can minimize things to get people on his side.

He is still one heck of a manipulator.

You know, I cam back here briefly just to get a feeling on a general question regarding responsible to, responsible for, becausing I was struggling with it. I didn't mean to get into too much personal stuff because I am entirely exhausted with it.

Then I read your posts and I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

You seem to have the impression that I offer no options for FWH and his family. Not true. There were options, but not that FWH was willing to do.

HIS solution (surprise surprise) was for him to call them - no spoken boundaries put in place regarding me or the marriage - just "Hey mom, how ya doing?" If she were to start verbally blasting me, then he would hang up.

But I don't believe he would do that. Know why? Because he won't even let me be present in the room.

See, Mark. He cannot appease me and appease his momma at the same time. He's lied to everyone so much that he probably doesn't even have it straight in his head, who he told what, so it would be very dangerous to have us both present. And he wants me to actually agree to this???

If he is to represent us "as a united front" to his parents, using the pronoun "we" not "I" then why would I not be allowed to be present??? Is he kidding?

It stinks like a rotten egg to me.

I really could go on, divulge more. But my head hurts from it and I don't think I give a rat's [censored] what he does or who he talks to anymore.


edited to add:

His parents want nothing to do with being forgiven because they don't think they did anything wrong. And if you think you know everything they did and said, Mark, I would venture to say that you do not because FWH protects them, way more than he ever protected me.

This is not about retribution. Hell, it's not even really about compensation.

It's about protection.

How?

Because every time there is a bump in the road, FWH calls momma, who, in turn, bashes the living tar out of me and advises him to leave, leave, leave! When, a couple of times, he actually TOOK her advice, she told him that he "did the right thing!"

So, why in the heck would I want someone (parents or NO parents) constantly looking for any hole, big or small, to rip through and seek the ruination of my marriage??

Why??

Sure, FWH needs to keep his marital issues out of the conversation. He needs to not go running to her every time something goes wrong because, "he needs to know he has a place to go" in the event that his marriage doesn't work out.

She eats that up. He feels all warm and fuzzy inside because somebody loves him, no matter what. And everyone's happy.

See, Mark, the BOUNDARY is in place for PROTECTION. I would like to think that FWH has learned and grown enough to ensure that this would not happen again. But I am not the least convinced that he is. The mere fact that he doesn't want me present during a conversation is one big clue that he would NOT protect me. He would protect her. And he would protect himself.

Inlaws were not your run-of-the-mill enablers. They were, and continue to be abusers. They pushed and pushed and pushed for the marriage to end, even when FWH was AT HOME trying to reconcile. MIL continually tried to convince (and almost succeeded) FWH that he did not love me, that he would be happier with OW.

And I'm supposed to just roll over and say - "Sure honey, pick up the phone and let's let this bullcrap march right back into our lives?

He's not ready, Mark. He has tons of work to do on it, and if he opts not to because it's just too darn scary, that's not my fault.

RLT,

I didn't mean to come across as beating you up. And you did clarify something for me.

I don't have time to reply properly right now but will say that I will take up your husband's issues with him when I get the chance...

I'm going to think about what to say before I add anything else right now.

FWIW, I want to see both of you happy in your marriage.

Mark

I apologize, Mark, if I am coming off as abrasive toward you.

I do not mean to.

I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it.

rlt

rltraveled,

KalyaAndy once said to me..."you do not need to be married that bad"...have you read her posts? She (and I) have had similar issues as you.

If I were you: (this is ME speaking, not you)
*I would fire your MC immediately...you have been through enough crap and for your FWH to not have to be accountable for that crap, no way.
*I would consider what you need to do in your own personal recovery plan so you can determine if you really need to be married to this man. 25 years of SA does not get cured in less than one year.
*I would not budge on the boundary with the parents. Them "supporting their son" is at the root of why you are in this predicament in the first place.

I don't know your whole story, but I feel for you from the bits that I can relate to mine. I can also hear your bitterness, which comes from years of this kind of abuse and being sick and fed up from it.

Now it's time to take care of you! You don't owe it to him to be in MC. Go to IC and let him make his own recovery plan. If a boundary was that he needed to be in group therapy then decide what the consequence is and stick to it.

It's not too late for you to have a form of a Plan B, IMO.

RLT,



And I hope you are not offended by my abrupt way of saying things most of the time.

I was going to ask you if he knew what had to be done to earn the right to have contact with his parents. But I decided to ask him instead and see what he says before seeking your input.

I take no offense toward you or anything you said.

Maybe my job frustration is getting to me or maybe I've just been HERE too long. I just have so little time and so much I want to say most of the time.

You'll know if I am offended because I'll tell you.

You got here a week before I did and sometimes I forget that I am in truth further along in the process than you are because of all that you suffered at a more recent time.

I think you may have had to fight longer and harder than I even would have been inclined to do.

Unless you have anything to add (or subtract), I'll butt out and let you get the answers to your questions that you came here for...

I'm praying for you both...

Mark