GG - I did a search of all the forums for those words and couldn't come up with anything. If you tell me which forum it is, I'll do my best.

As far as what catperson is saying, I tend to agree with that. You've tried counseling. You've tried RH. You've tried plan A for 6 months...I keep wondering if finding other living arrangements for a while would allow her more space and time to reflect. I wonder sometimes if your staying is somehow empowering and possibly enabling her behavior. I also have some concerns that your boys are going to get the idea that it's okay for a person to be treated this way...

Of course, it could backfire for you, but how so? From what I gather, neither of you believe in divorce. I'm just thinking at least you both could live peacefully.

If money is her big thing - maybe she needs to understand that not working on the marriage can be very costly. Two rents/mortgages, having to hire someone to do the lawn, plowing, etc... And you can always move home after she's gotten 6 or so months of individual counseling and can show that she's ready to work on the marriage...

I think my biggest concern is your having to live with someone who feels that way about you. It can do some heavy duty damage on your self esteem, not to mention how your kids relate to the two of you. And prolongation of that can lead to depression, etc.

Man or woman - rich or poor - success or not - you're a person - with value and morality and purpose in life. She has no right (and I'm not saying this because of the things she has said about you), but she simply has no right to treat you like she does. No one does. Who put a crown on her head and made her the judge and jury of the marriage, or of you for that matter?

I do see value in going to counseling by yourself. Not because you're this or that, but I think you need validation in a big way - from someone who doesn't know either of you.

What happened with the marriage counseling several months ago? Have the two of you been able to get back there and go again?

GG - I see you posted while I was typing. Just one comment:

"I've read over and over that it usually KILLS a marriage. And I would really feel like I bailed and had a hand in killing my marriage, even more than I already do."

If she is not willing to work on the marriage, GG...after counseling, Plan A, apologies, etc., after so long...is it possible that the marriage may already be done? And can you see yourself owning your own part in it for future use but also letting go of her half too? She shares in this; you do know that, right? Even if she tries to tell you otherwise, she most certainly does.

I see your marriage like a laceration. You recognize that it needs attention and suturing, but she won't allow you to clean and stitch it up, so it's not going to heal. Now...you can stand there with the needle and thread while she holds the injured appendage and cries, but until she holds it out to you and allows it, it ain't gonna happen. Maybe if you 'leave the room' she'll come to her senses. Recognize your strengths, but also recognize when you've done all you can.

What I gathered from reading, is that if someone betrays you, that's pretty good evidence they don't love and respect you. Where she differs from Dr Harley, is that she doesn't think love can be restored, or that love even existed.

The thing is, even Dr Harley says that he doesn't think he would stay if Joyce betrayed him, so there is a significant overlap in their views.

I don't think she was advocating that someone just leave on a whim if they were unhappy. It was my impression that she was saying if they had done the work, and the marriage didn't get better, that it was far better to leave, than to remain miserable, have an affair, kill your spouse, etc.

She certainly is anti-affair. She is also anti-dead, unloving marriage. She is clear to say that someone who is involved in an affair, or suffering abuse, etc is not in a position to make that determination. Rather, such a determination should be made by an impartial, professional.

Agreed. Like I said, it's not lockstep agreement. The harsh reality is sometimes someone is not the same as a spouse as they are when they are while dating.

Many get married with unrealistic expectations. She writes much about cupid type stuff, where people are caught up in the emotions, don't think much and get married. Or they were not enthusiastic about getting married, but their partner brought it up and they finally caved to the pressure.

One area where she and Dr Harley disagree is in the area of living together. She thinks it's a good idea. I agree with Dr Harley that it's not a good idea, and stats bear this out.
I agree. However, as you said, there are some deal breakers. I am re-married. If my wife should cheat, I would not try to save that marriage. Why? Because I know the pain of being betrayed by a wife and the odds of a woman returning once she has left her husband.

I don't think I'd marry again if I were betrayed again. I'd not trust and I'd seriously consider that I'm not good husband material, even after doing the Marriage Builders thing.
I hear you. I can see how one would think and feel this way.

Just keeping it real!

The bottom line is that what she says about the day to day life of marriage is pretty spot on and consistent with Dr Harley. She doesn't use the terms love bank, but it's clear that a husband or wifes job is to treat their spouse with extraordinary care, concern and love.

Where she differs is on repairing bad marriages. And frankly, given how seldom both partners will adopt a program such as Marriage Builders, I can see where she comes down on the side of just cutting the wayward from the team. And, the irony is, even though Dr Harley professes that marriages can be saved, even after infidelity, he is clear to say that he would not try to save his marriage if Joyce betrayed him.

To me, that is very telling.

I'm just now reading the bar thread.

Your wife is following the wayward alien abduction handbook to a tee.


The reason you can't find an affair partner is because it's someone in the church.

Either a deacon or an extremely trusted member that "would never do anything like that". Every church has one and he ususlly IS doing something like "that".

Go fid my gloating thread about my ex-music minister.

ANY church member that would openly tell your wife to "go find herself and be happy" is an enemy to your marriage and NOT a christian. You need to confront any such hypocrite interloper in such a fashion with extreme prejudice.

ANY person in the church that has done this must be pointed out as an enemy to the christian values and openly interfereing in your personal business.

"The reason you can't find an affair partner is because it's someone in the church.

Either a deacon or an extremely trusted member that "would never do anything like that". Every church has one and he ususlly IS doing something like "that".

Go fid my gloating thread about my ex-music minister.

ANY church member that would openly tell your wife to "go find herself and be happy" is an enemy to your marriage and NOT a christian. You need to confront any such hypocrite interloper in such a fashion with extreme prejudice.

ANY person in the church that has done this must be pointed out as an enemy to the christian values and openly interfereing in your personal business."

I'm lost. I don't remember anyone from her church telling her this. I thought he was talking about her coworkers, actually.

Pariah, GG said something about you not being a spiritual person. Are you sure that your view on this isn't a bit determined by your own experience?

He can't find an inteloper and she works at a church.

I gave him an prime example as the church I went to was just like any other. Full of self justifying adulterers.

Only my church made the news.

Soolee

Its in general questions 2. Entitled:Question about going to bars.

Its pretty interesting. And I can UNDERSTAND what they worry about, but the "solution", well, I just HOPE its not true.


We don't go to counseling anymore. That stopped after 2 visits.
The MC said that her answers were indicating to him that SHE needed to see him on her own, by herself AND THEN perhaps we could go again. I remember that I was telling a story about work.

When it snowed on a Friday or a Saturday, I would lose a lot of biz, because obviously the busy time in restaurants is the weekends. Well, if it snowed, and we had to close for the safety of the employees, I would stay at work until when we would NORMALLY close and then go home. I did this because I didn't want my wife to worry about lost income, which she would and it would make her feel bad, concerned about me getting paid. So I would pretend to be open for biz. The first year I wouldn't do that, I would just go home. And I could SEE how bummed she was, and I would get bummed also. I bothered me A LOT when my wife would bum out about money, I always felt responsible, because I was. After I finished telling the story, my wife's eyes bulged and she shouted " AND NOW YOUR BLAMING ME FOR THE SNOW!?!" Well, the MC eyes joined in the bulging contest and he stated "YOU UNDERSTAND THAT STORY AS BLAMING YOU?" Thats when he said that she needed to see him alone. Its been that way ever since. To tell you the truth, I don't like it, I'd much rather do MC together. He just says that there is too much resentment going on right now. I don't know. I hate it.

But, you think moving out might help? I would do it in a heart beat if I thought it would help, I just don't know.

Soolee, I feel bad always talking about me. Do you EVER have problems YOU would like to talk about? I promise I won't give you advice, but you can just vent if you like....ok? Anytime.

Hey Pariah
I followed your story pretty closely. I'm glad your doing great now. If my church had done the same thing to me, I would have given them the adios also. Thats the problem. Even something as beautiful as Christianity can be tarnished when its touched with human hands. Same thing with my religion, Catholicism.

People always tell me, "Oh, how can you be Catholic when all that stuff with priest molestations happened?" I just tell them that my trust and belief in Jesus Christ has NOTHING to do with priests, or church and ANYTHING else manmade. Priest are human, with human frailities. My religion stands on its own. The people involved in it do not validate OR invalidate it for me.

But, I tell you, your story is definately one that I know best here.

PS: Yes, it was CO WORKERS not church members. Catholic church isn't as encompassing as other Christian churches are. I gather from reading posts that there are some denominations that get much more involved in peoples everyday lives. Not here. Anybody we know in church we know because we know them OUT of church.

"But, you think moving out might help? I would do it in a heart beat if I thought it would help, I just don't know.

Soolee, I feel bad always talking about me. Do you EVER have problems YOU would like to talk about? I promise I won't give you advice, but you can just vent if you like....ok? Anytime."

I don't know if it will help, but I think the situation would certainly change in some way. I can't, in all good conscience tell you to go ahead and listen to the idea of separation, because if she gets pi$$ed off and divorces you, you're going to hate me, and I'd feel very badly about that because I know that isn't what you want.

I can see a separation going a number of different ways though. I think she could get scared and really start to reflect and think hard about what she is doing with your lives, or it could get really nasty, with her wanting to make it a legal separation, child support, etc., and possibly moving on to divorce.

I think since you're the only one who will know when you've had enough nonsense to at least seek another place to live so that you can relax a little, study for your masters without feeling bad about it, work as long or as short a day as you wanted, and have some measure of peace or at least relief from the anxiety of living with someone who treats you poorly. It's a risk, but you're the only one who will know if the worse-case scenario is something you can live with.

I think she's banking on your common faith and your devotion to her to keep you living under the same roof, so she has no incentive to change or get some help because she doesn't think you're going anywhere. There's no threat that her life and her plans could drastically change.

Frankly, I think if I were you, I'd investigate how she is allocating your paychecks, whose name the accounts are in, etc. I hate to raise suspicion if there isn't any, but with a rocky marriage, you really need to watch out for yourself. There is nothing wrong with asking to see the latest bank statements or telling her you'd like for her to start doing the banking online so that you have ready access to the accounts just as she does. This way you can check the balances at any given moment of any day from any location. In a happy marriage, I would see nothing wrong with allowing one particular spouse to allocate funds, pay bills, etc., as long as things were gone over together each month. However, in an unhappy marriage, I really think it's better to be fully aware of where all your paycheck is going. I know you trust her, but from the outside looking in, based on what you've told us...I'd make myself very aware. You could always ask her how the bank accounts are doing, and would she mind going over things with you on a monthly basis. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I'll try and check out that other thread.

There are times I'd like to talk about my problems, but it stresses me out more, to tell you the truth. I'd much rather come on here and read and try to help others, but thank you. I'll certainly keep that in mind, and your advice would be valued, believe me.

Darn Soolee

Is reading minds ANOTHER of your skills?? The paycheck thing. I JUST STARTING THINING ABOUT IT THIS WEEK. See with this expansion thing ALMOST done, there will be a LARGE chunk of money left over that I am giving to her. She has recently told me how she has to start saving for HER retirement. (get it, HERS) The message WOULD have been, if I chose to go in that direction, is that I DIDN'T COME THROUGH WITH ENOUGH MOOLA to address retirement fully. So with this bunch of money HER retirement should get a nice boost. My counselor says I'm trying to BUY her back, and I understand someone thinking that way. But, as much as my wife NEEDS FS, she can't be bought. If she truly hates me, she will continue to hate me. Along with this money, my salary will almost triple, if everything goes as planned. Now, we can pay for BOTH our kids college,AND fund retirement.

So, because this is going on in my mind, I started to think that I REALLY wouldn't be to surprised if she started her own account. Now, please don't 2 x 4 me, but, if she does.............so the F what. I've stated before, I could give a rodents hiney about money. I need to make it because its important to my wife, and by meeting this need, I thought she would respect and love me. Well, that didn't happen, so let her siphon off all the money she wants. And IF she goes, she can have EVERYTHING. That will be sizable (which is amazing considering what a failure I've been). As long as she leaves the business to me, I can RE EARN my money again. I AM trying to buy something, I'm trying to buy my GUILT off. If I can NOT feel guilty about being unable to provide at the level my wife wants, that would be a HUGE burden off my back.
So, she can take, hoard, steal, embezzle ANY AMOUNT of money she wants, I DON'T CARE. Do I think she is doing it....well, I hope not, but I won't be surprised if she is taking a portion of what SHE earns and squirrling it away. Basically we would be living on MY check. I know she is looking into MLM in order to supplement her income......God, I can't believe she would stoop down to being a pain in the [censored] to friends in order to make money.....oh well, nothing should surprise me anymore.

And, ok, just know I appreciate EVERYTHING you do for me and I am READY AND ABLE TO LISTEN at any time. Thanks again.

Oh yeah you will give a rat's @ss about the money, I guarantee it because YOU will have to pay the taxes on it AND she STILL will get HALF of everything else if you even give her everything.

It's time to PROTECT YOURSELF!

Mine got the house refinanced in her name only when she thought I was going to die. They had some legal POA on the original loan that allowed her to refi if a spouse was incapacitated. A inethical sneaky realestate attorney did it and the judge did NOTHING about it and she made off with $30k equity.

He said he would have just given it to her anyway.

Take every penny you can and start squirreling it away in cash and make it look like you are blowing it on booze and sleazy chicks.

She can retire on her looks like my XW is going to have to do.

Thanks Pariah. I know where youre coming from.

But, I have to repeat myself. I don't care about money. And since I think that ALOT of this krap going on in my marriage is about being too obsessed with it, I hate it even more.

As long as I have my business and my creativity, I can always earn more. Money just means different things to different people.

Your wife gave you sheet because she wanted to be a big cheese and belittled you because she figured you didn't come through. I understand your feelings. I don't blame you. And I may feel that way some day. Believe me, I get the same advice from family and friends, so I realize I am in the VAST MINORITY.

Oh by the way, thanks for clueing me in on that pic thread. Man, most people look ENTIRELY different than what I thought they would, including you. But one person basically looks JUST like I pictured her. (But I'm won't say) Oh, and that pendent is a bute.

Oh, yeah, Pariah

I own restaurants, all the booze and sleazy chicks FOR FREE. I'd have to find something else to spend my money on.

I understand, GG. You've said that before - that the $$ doesn't matter to you. But, I also think you're afraid she's going to get pi$$ed because it'll come across that you don't trust her.

I just know it's obvious that money means a great deal to her. It's her weakness. It's her world. Take that security away, and heads will likely roll initially. It might be the only real playing card you've got. You've tried everything else - plan A, counseling, etc. Her whole world is going to tip upside down. But she might also start thinking about the marriage and what can be done to make the source of the security happier. It's just one possible scenario, but it could happen.

I think you need to take more interest in what she's doing with it all, regardless. Ask to see the statements. There's nothing at all wrong with that, and if she gets pi$$ed off, thinking you're suspicious, I would just calmly ask her why she's upset. You're the one who brings home the majority of the money. Is it really that strange to want to know where it's all going?

And with this major business change, it would be a good transition for you - a good reason to tell her that you feel a need to be more involved in the financial planning, allocations, etc.

If she thinks you don't trust her, I'd tell her you simply came to the realization that you don't know much about your own finances or retirement and that you'd like to look at things more frequently in the future - say monthly - like a board meeting. Heck - if she wants to run the marriage like a company, then an occasional "audit" isn't unheard of and shouldn't raise concern or ire as long as everything is on the up and up.

Besides, shouldn't this make her happy, knowing you're more interested in something that's important to her?

Do you think she's going to leave once the kids are out of college? Maybe you should ask her what she meant about 'her' retirement.

Oh yeah, before even. I think once my second is out of high school, she is GONE. Maybe before, but that should give us two more years. I have MAYBE that amount of time to figure out something. I'd say, right now, I have 15% chance. That drops if she strays. And with the way she feels about me, that only a matter of time, if not already.

I understand your take on the money thing. Maybe she WOULD like it if I took an interest in it. I don't think she would be mad, becasue I know that SHE knows that I could care less. And I think that in itself ticked her off.

Seems like you becoming a 'good' businessman - caring about the books - is exactly what would make you more attractive to her. You might even include her in your work toward expanding your business, to show her that you ARE interested in growing your net worth.

GG - Regarding that thread - man that was a long one and hard to wrap my head around, but I'm just going to throw my opinion out there, based on my still-limited knowledge of MB principles and not so much influenced by the posts.

I believe we need to eliminate love busters.

I believe we need to fulfill emotional needs.

I believe we need to try and spend at least 15 hours with our spouses one-on-one per week, ideally fulfilling those ENs (more hours if the marriage is at odds according to Dr. H in the LB book.)

I believe we are obligated to take steps to protect the marriage. Dr. Harley says, "So in addition to meeting important emotional needs, you must be sure to protect the Love Bank from withdrawals." To me, this means learn the principles so you know what upsets your spouse and what makes them happy. We can buy every book on the website, print off the Questionnaires, spent countless hours on the forum, etc., but if we don't roll our sleeves up and sit our butts down to do the homework and apply the principles in real life, it's all a waste of time and money - and I'm not just saying that to you but to myself too. It's one thing to know what to do and what not do and quite another to apply it.

I consider myself still in kindergarten with regards to Dr. Harley's school for marriage building, and I know there are many more important facets to MB, but I like to think that if we can manage to do the four things above, a lot of the other problems we hear about could possibly be avoided. At least things wouldn't be quite so messed up and would give you a better starting point for fine tuning the relationship.

If we spent that amount of time with our spouses, there would be a deeper connection, a stronger marriage, and less time for independent behaviors. The likelihood of straying would be slimmer because we'd be happier with each other - our needs would already be filled, see.

That being said, I do believe we have an obligation to protect the marriage from negative outside influences. We're reinforcing a vow here. So...I personally don't go to bars without my husband. It isn't anything we discussed actually, but I know he worries about me, and I respect and appreciate that. He trusts me, but he knows how devastating it would be for me and our marriage if someone hurt me or I hurt someone else by accident. It's just that drinking puts you in a vulnerable place, and you have no idea what other people have on their minds.

Now...Noah, they say, owned a vineyard. Some people think he was an alcoholic. I often wonder why God chose a possible alcoholic to build an arc, but I sense that he knew Noah was bored out of his mind and needed a job to do. But...seeing as God is unlikely to have jobs lined up for all of those who drink too much or forget their vows, we're going to have to be good - all on our own.

Frankly, I don't get the whole bar/affair thing anyway. Alcohol has always hampered my libido, so it strikes me as odd that an affair while intoxicated could actually be satisfying to a woman. It's going to lower her inhibitions; that much is true, and it's possible that she'll be more willing to try different things sexually than she would while sober, but from a woman's perspective, if you asked her in the morning if she got any true enjoyment out of it, I'll bet she'd say "not really." It's not easy to have an orgasm while you're intoxicated, so in the morning, you not only have a hangover; you may have an STD, an unplanned pregnancy, the heavy realization that you've cheated, and you might not even be able to say you enjoyed it! I mean it's a lot to throw away, wouldn't you say? It's such a huge risk.

On the other hand - you know your husband, he's much more likely to be disease free - and you know he loves you before, during, and after the intoxicated sex. So...at home...with the hubby...after the kids are in bed...why not? As long as you know what's going on, and agree, why not?

Meeting a same-sex friend for a drink? I personally don't see anything wrong with that, per say as long as you have a plan to get home safely and your spouse has no problems with it. I've never done it because I wouldn't want to drive under the influence. I have quite a few people who depend on me, and what if I hurt someone else? I know that's something I would never get over. It's just not worth the risk, imo.

Keep in mind that if you don't know how your spouse feels about it, it would probably be polite to ask them and go over those scenarios, thus creating boundaries together that they talk about on the thread. And if it's a problem for your spouse, practicing independent behavior and going anyway would be considered a love buster.

Dr. Harley says to find out ahead of time how your spouse would feel. You aren't just putting your marriage in jeopardy by certain behaviors; you're also putting your spouse's marriage in jeopardy. So...shouldn't they have some say?

If you were a partner in a business, wouldn't you confer with that partner on any issue that involves them?

I just think if I follow those 4, I'm at the very least less likely to have time or desire to put myself in a situation that could be considered independent behavior. With whatever time that is left over in my life, I should enjoy my autonomy - sure. Get a hobby - visit a friend - why not? But, my marriage and time invested to keep that marriage strong, should take precedence.

If you go back to when your kids were younger, you can remember teaching them not to call each other names and to be kind to others (aka eliminate LBs and fulfill ENs), but before you sent them off to preschool or put them on that big yellow bus, I'll bet you also sat them down and talked about stranger danger and peer pressure too. (aka protecting yourself - not altogether different from the grown up version of protecting your marriage from negative outside influences.) As a parent, you're obligated to teach these things to your children, but as a spouse, your obligated to maintain your vows, and one way to facilitate that is to remember that your marriage - in the wrong setting - could be just as vulnerable as that child.

Kids need boundaries. Kids without boundaries run wild - have no discipline - seek attention in all the wrong places or act out to get attention - see any correlation here with affairs? Are adults much different? Yet I think a lot of relationship rules are pretty much no-brainers, but when you aren't sure - yeah...I think it's better to ask your spouse how they feel about something.

And of course, saying these things and doing these things are two different things altogether, GG. I can only say that I aspire to follow the rules. I'm not perfect, and I'll always be a work in progress.

Fellow eye-talion!!! I missed your sarcasm and wit! I, too, worried about you when you disappeared. Welcome back.

Cat

You and soolee probably are on to something. I'm just being a wuss. After getting my butt emotionally whooped for the past 12 months, ANY action that will meet with scorn, ridicule, and intentionally OBVIOUS disbelief just re opens recent wounds.

Like, right before I logged on, my wife is cleaning out my oldest sons room, fumigating, actually. I asked her if I could help in any way (knowing the answer) she said no. She always says no to my assistance to everything. Partially because I NEVER do it as good as her, partially because I never helped her as often as she would have liked, partially because I used to be (10 years ago) pretty sloppy, partially because she SIMPLY will not allow me to do anything nice because I think she is afraid of losing some anger.

And it upsets me. I am no longer sloppy. I've gradually gotten better. I do my own laundry and fold (I don't do laundry good enough, so she wouldn't let me help with the families) cook and clean up after for myself (also never ever good enough,and I REALLY try to do it as good as her)cut the grass (to late) cut my NEIGHBORS (WIDOW)grass, wash the cars, basically I do what I think a good normal husband would do.

Im afraid it just a count down. I'm hoping I come up with a new plan of some sort, or the MC helps her see how damaging her anger is to EVERYONE.

Hope youre doing well.

Thanks for reading that stuff soolee.

You know, I'm starting to get this distinct feeling that not everyone here is REALLY here to help others. Its for themselves. I see a lot of scared confused people getting abused lately, belittled endlessly for having the huevos to question ANYTHING. I'll just pass from now on.

I'll tell you something, soolee, if you aren't a professional therapist, you missed your calling. Sometimes I read your stuff just because it sounds soooo, I don't know, RIGHT I guess. Shoot, I"m going for a degree in MFT, and I'm close to being a dope. I'm just trying to say that you can really analyze a problem and suggest solutions that make people WANT to listen.

Have a good night, ok?

Eaayyy, Fiori, Come stai? I see youre still backing down to everyone on this board, huh? Come on girl, stand up for yourself!!