What about juice bars? One passion fruit smoothy and the next thing you know...

I've never given her one thing to distrust me about so she has no issues on me catching a game or going for a drink with the guys. I've never lied to her.

I've never gone 'clubbing' or out with the opposite sex.

She certainly has the right to say whatever she wants but fortunately for us both she uses good judgement and continues to trust me as I've never failed her.

She respects me enough (and herself) that she would not even consider going out without me.

Excellent post, KiwiJ. I think it is much easier than people believe to get yourself into an atmosphere where an A could happen.

It starts out with innocent intentions....

Fox

feel free to take this thread anywhere you please. I happen to agree 100%. I will never have an affair because of good morals and good boundaries. I don't put myself in bad situations.

example. I have a jetski and was to go out with a female fried one day...she owns her own. When hers wouldn't start she suggested that we both ride on mine. As we were both dating other people at the time, I let her know that I thought that was improper...she thought I was silly. I didn't care. I would not allow myself to be that intimate with her. A male friend...sure, hop on. Female...nope.

I agree that a big part of my problem was a lack of good boundaries. There were times whre I was not comfortable with certain behavior and didn't keep a good boundary. There are times when I said yes when I should have said no, and vice versa. But boundaries can be too restrictive as well as too lax. Like I've said, there are several situations that I am concerned about. This was never one of them.

My wife has not shown that she can't be trusted when it comes to this area. If she had ever lied about where she has been, then yes, the boundary would change. If she said she was going to happy hour and didn't, or had an inappropriate conversation with a guy, then HH is done.

I'm not saying that I or anyone else is immune to affairs, not at all. I pretty much agree with Tabby on this.

This is the problem that you have with your logic on this. It's fine that you trust your wife, but if any of these things that I hilighted happened...you would be using hindsight (like me and many other BS's here) and saying, "f#ck...my WW's having an affair." Because if any of these things happen, which they have more of a chance of happening because of your choice to let more independent behavior into your marriage, she will be in an affair.

Me too, but if you can go doesn't that open you up to do the same thing that you resent your W for?

What I mean is that if the bar is a breeding ground for affairs, then shouldn't she have the right to say to you "no, I don't think I would like you going to the bar tonight"...whether or not you are just going to hang with the guys to play pool or watch a football game...isn't it HER right to give an opinion on it too?
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I am not answering for iam but the situation fit w/ how I feel about question.
It's an interesting question..
Early in our marriage we both might stop at a happy hour after work from time to time, but not often.....it was no big deal to me then......a few years and children later, H would stop after work every now and then......and, I began to resent it. I was waiting for him at home w/ his children and he was out drinking and partying w/ mixed company. He said he wouldn't mind if I went out for a girls night out once in awhile......I did a few times, and there was always someone who tried to hit on us.....and some of the ladies enjoyed the attention and encouraged the flirting..... it would have been very easy to stray if I wanted to.........I didn't...I was young and in love and and I usually found myself going home early to be w/ him....but, NOW, I can see how dangerous it was.

My H traveled for work and hit many fun spots and hotel lobby bars...he worked in Europe a lot and went to the pubs (and some other interesting types of clubs) and even if he didn't have an actual affair, he was a full blown WS in many senses of the word. I don't think some people can be trusted in bars or anywhere in mixed company......and I agree that alcohol makes it the situation much more dangerous.

Today, I do not think it's okay for my H to be in a bar w/o me.......I think it would be ok for me if I was invited for a unique situation, but IF my H expressed any concern or disapproval, I would understand and not go.

Yes hindsight is always 20-20 and if I knew now what I didn't know then, I'd make a ton of changes. But if your spouse had an affair with a coworker, would you then say that you screwed up because your spouse had a job? I understand that different situations lend to different risks for an affair. If your marriage is in a bad state, the risk is higher.

There are a number of pubs within walking distance of my home. My husband and I usually visit a couple of them together on weekends (lunch here, a "swift half" before dinner there).

However, when I go out of town, my husband will have one dinner at the one closest to our house. He loves their cheeseburger with the jalepeno peppers. When he's out of town, I sometimes take myself out to dinner at some nearby spot and sit at the bar. Sometimes it's more of a pub, sometimes it's a restaurant with a bar. I always take a book or a magazine. It's my special treat.

And of course, while either of us is out of town, it's entirely possible that we're having dinner at a bar in whatever town we're staying in.

For us it's not a problem. I can't quite explain why. I totally understand why it would be an issue for a couple in recovery from infidelity. Or even in a marriage where one partner feels he or she isn't getting his/her emotional needs met by the other -- in which case the pub visit would probably make the other partner feel abandoned or dismissed. Or if one partner let the bar scene become a huge part of their life, or was going to the kind of bars where people go to meet people and hook up. But none of those circumstances apply to us. We're happily married, we don't welcome attention from members of the opposite sex, and we keep our "pub crawling" to a minimum.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of variables to this question. There's no one single answer that applies to every single couple in the universe.

A job is something that adds to a marriage....what does going to the bar add to a marriage? That's a question you need to answer, whether you feel going out to the bar is okay or not. What does it add to the marriage?

edit:

You keep saying things like "If your marriage is in a bad state, the risk is higher." This is also something that you are seeming to overlook...most of us here didn't know our marriages were "in a bad state"....until it was too late. WS's don't tell you that they are unhappy, then say "I'm going out to get laid tonight". They say "love you honey...I'm going to happy hour with the girls"....then, go get laid. You find out through other means.

You keep saying things like "If your marriage is in a bad state, the risk is higher." This is also something that you are seeming to overlook...most of us here didn't know our marriages were "in a bad state"....until it was too late. WS's don't tell you that they are unhappy, then say "I'm going out to get laid tonight". They say "love you honey...I'm going to happy hour with the girls"....then, go get laid. You find out through other means.
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Waywards do not tell you when they are unhappy!
What a great point......I would have never have known...infact, my H didn't even know he was unhappy.........but, when faced w/ temptation and a few drinks.....he forgot I even existed.

It's a social activity that builds relationships with friends and coworkers. Having friends (same sex) outside of marriage. My wife would actually encourage me to go to HH as I was very dependent on her for absolutley everything and didn't really do anything with friends. It wasn't healthy.

And sure, that could have been at some place where alcohol isn't served, but that's where most people go. I'm not even a big fan of it because I like to eat dinner, not crappy HH food, but I generally go so as not to be anti-social. I have been at more HHs lately because I have been anti-social at work, and because I have a ton of free time since being separated.

edit: I completely understand what everyone is saying and don't find any problem with your views on the subject. It makes perfect sense and works for you. Nor do I think that I don't have the right to say what I may be uncomfortable with. There are differing degrees of risk with everything your spouse does when she/he is not around you, and a bar is higher then most. You are never going to eliminate all risk of an affair, and you should avoid high risk situations whenever possible. Heck when you get married, you're at risk of an affair.

Ah so she had to SHOW she can't be trusted first! Gotcha!

Well so much for boundaries then.

My wife could be trusted for 23 years and then she couldn't.

My advice is to pull your head out and practice good boundaries BEFORE you have reason to.

Its not healthy to get your needs met OUTSIDE of marriage. That is how affairs start and is how people fall out of love. A healthy married couple will develop a social life as MARRIED people, not single people. You are supposed to be dependent on your wife for your emotional needs; you shouldn't have to go outside of your marriage for that. THAT is not healthy.

ummm, you just agreed with me. So what is the "other way around?"

Ok, so most of you believe there is an absolute truth to where boundaries should be for every couple. Can someone point me to this master list of boundary lines when it comes to activies spouses can do without their spouse present?

My point is they don't think they are immune BECAUSE of their sloppy boundries.

There is no master list. But, what I can tell you is that the list is different for BS's post d-day then it was pre d-day. You have a greater chance of having to revamp your list if you have more independent behavior and looser boundaries....that's all we are saying.

I'm still not exactly sure what you are gaining by having looser boundaries and more independent behavior from relationships outside of the marriage. Can you explain? Because, you sound like my WW did...during her A.