That a bit arrogant on your part. Your definition of a GREAT MARRIAGE may differ from other's.

Why the broad brush?

So I'm guessing that in over 29,000 posts you've never posted one of them while he was home?

Silly me, thinking a marriage defined as a "PRISON SENTENCE" isn't just another definition of a "GREAT MARRIAGE."

I think you're smart enough to know that is not what I was talking about.

Read your post again, silly.

You're quite welcome.

My turn,

medc,

I occasionally go to a local club with married female friends for a bite to eat and a drink. There are about 15 of us together, and we gather at a large table. We do not speak with others, and leave together as a group.

We are all home before 9.

Our husbands are free to join us, and on occasion, one or another has. We tend to be a little goofy and rowdy. Usually the gathering is associated with a birthday or shower of some sort, and the guys don't want to be involved.

If it is once in awhile, we (my H and I) think it is okay, depending on who the other people are, where they are going, if the spouse knows, how late they will be, if we are in touch, if we are welcome to attend (and this means, the other spouse should ALWAYS be welcome!), etc.

WE think that if the spouse is clearly not welcome to show up, then it is absolutely NOT POJA'd as okay in this household. We have that agreement on board here. We strongly feel that if one of us goes somewhere that the spouse is not welcome, then that spells out a danger zone -

WHY NOT????

and that means it's a no-go for sure.


We POJA'd this, and that's how we worked it out.

SB

Well, just to chime in, my W expalained to me was what a wonderful and caring thing she was doing for me in never inviting me along to her nights out with co workers, business meetings,
and nights out with the girls(yea, right).

You see at that point I had been sober and not touched a drink in about 14 years. So she was simply protecting ME from temptation. What a wonderful and thoughtful W, I thought to myself. It became a wonderful and fantasy filled experience for her.

That ain't never going to happen again!

My W didn't ultimately cross the line and begin full blown PA until she decided to go drinking alone with her OM boss. Then an invite to his nearby boat(a floating bedroom) and voila!!

Her betrayal and subsequent A was really like a double betrayal to me. She used my very own recovery to PROTECT ME from the truth.

Oh well,

Like I say, won't happen again.

All Blessings,
Jerry

SB,
this reminds me of a group of women that used to belong to a woman's only bowling league. It was just a girls night out. Except that I happen to know for a fact that this girls night out often times turned into cheating with men from other leagues. Unless you are with a group of people that would rat you out in a split second...and sadly most "friends" won't do that...I still think it is dangerous.

Since you have POJA'd this for yourselves, obviously this works for you guys...and that's what counts for you.

We all have different standards as to what is okay for our relationships.

How about a wife who wants to go out to a bar or concert with her girlfriend, have a drink or two, then sleep over at her house.

The girlfriend and her husband are swingers.

Wait, I'm sorry, that was rude and judgmental. They aren't 'currently' in a swinging relationship, they have just, in the past, engaged in extra-marital sex. And plan to do so in the future, but I digress (allegedly).

My wife doesn't understand why I would possibly have a problem with this, as her affairs, all 4 of them, were online. She's never "done anything like that" so doesn't understand how the two could possibly have anything to do with the other.

Discuss.

Discuss.

Okay, I think you are being foolish for calling a "woman" that has had 4 affairs your wife...and not your ex-wife.

Mr B,

I agree with medc on this one. Your wife is trawling for an affair. If you agree for her to spend the night with swingers, then you are basically consenting for her to have the affair.

You took the blinders off, in her mind.

Four affairs? So, my end of the discussion on this would be:

What has SHE done to protect the marriage, and what is in it for you? Obviously her behavior continues. You are here at MB since 2006. Implement the concepts, and get her on board, or......................


SB

Sorry for the driveby. I have hesitated to post our whole story since she checks what I post, and most of what I would write would have a lot of anger. I might go ahead and start anyway.

For the purposes of context and 'how am I still married to her', I'll put a brief history here.

I found out about 3 of them 6 months ago, so that's the immediate response. I was so relieved to just finally get some truth that I went through a very high honeymoon period.

Longer story.

I had a one night PA in 2001. I told her as soon as I got home (from a business trip) and begged for us to go to counseling. She refused.

She had an online EA in 2003.

I had a PA in 2003, again I told her and said either she could come to counseling with me or I would leave. She went to counseling for a few months. This is when she told me about her EA, at that point I really didn't care.

She had 2 online EA in 2006, went to counseling twice and said the counselor agreed with her that she was fine. We were in the midst of a cross-country move, so that was a convenient excuse to stop counseling, and every time after that I was told she was fine and I needed to basically stop harassing her.

She had her last online EA in fall 2007. We started seeing marriage mentors (which has been very helpful), as she still refused to go to counseling. In March she told me about the 3 other EA's.

I've been out of honeymoon phase about a month.

Just this last saturday she wrote me a letter apologizing for her gaslighting, i.e. always telling me she was fine, and didn't need counseling, which was BS and led to the subsequent affairs. She also said she would go to IC to work on her parts, which is a huge step.

I felt very good about that, to finally see remorse for that.

Boundaries is now the big issue, and we're obviously worlds apart there.

We have both read a lot of Harley materiel, I should say that she actually started that, when I had my PA, as I had really given up on the marriage. She plan A'd me to death, but by the time I was on board she had mostly given up.

Sorry this got so long, I guess I should start my own thread.

Wow. I go to coach the HS volleyball team and then MS soccer team and this thread has blown up in terms of replies.

I would like to see viewpoints on this since we're on the subject of spouses going and doing things without the other spouse.

Would anyone have a problem with their spouse going to the gym to workout? You don't want to go and/or don't really like the activity of working out. Your spouse does. Do you tell them not to go?

My W has a M friend that she goes and hangs out with at her house every once in awhile. I'm not really into going over to their house since I have nothing in common with the friend and the friend's husband will only talk to you over his laptop. Plus, their kids are a bit noisy for my tastes. Would you tell your spouse not to go even though you are more than invited to go but just don't feel like it? I've gone several times but just end up bored silly after 20 minutes or so.

We (my W and I) have a mutual M couple friend. He and I throw together (Scottish Highland games) and like to game together (Warhammer 40K, Risk, Axis & Allies). His W often tends to crash out pretty early (8 or 9pm) as she's naturally a sleepy person and likes to have 12 hours of sleep. I go over there about 1-2 times a month later in the evening and we game for a few hours. She has absolutely no interest in role playing games or combat table games. Would this be off limits for your spouse to go without you being with him even though you'd be bored silly watching a few guys game?

Like I said, I'd just like to see the replies.

Rest assured, I in no way consent.

But how do you respond to that in a Plan A frame of mind? I struggle with anger, and these crazy statements make me incapable of rational thought, much less conversation. So is the only time we discuss anything meaningful the couple hours a week we spend with our marriage mentors?

At this point she thinks MB is kinda wacky, we both went through a time where we thought the concepts were good, but that a lot of people on here get extreme at times (which admittedly is the drawback of this forum...) I still firmly believe in the concepts, her, not so sure.

How do you POJA with someone who doesn't want to be 'controlled'?

WOW, your marriage has been nothing but one affair after the other.
You both should throw everything you think you know about relationships out the window. Count on there being more affairs than you know about (most likely a lot more).

I'm not sure your marriage can or even should be saved.

I did not have the time to read the whole thread but here's my opinion.


My H used to be so proud and happy with our level of trust on each other because he could attend any event business or not without me calling all the time to check on him.

He was also so proud of himself because he was the only faithful H in that professional group (different companies). He used to laugh at those 'loosers" for not having such a good relationship has we had, that they had to cheat instead of being with their W's.

He had his first ONS on a business trip because everyone went out for drinks after the welcome dinner and all drunk too much.

After that he had several ONS, EA, PA during two agonizing years of insane doubt (for me) and lies from H, until final proof d-day.

All those affairs started/ developed at dinners/ parties and ceremonies where drinking was a must (or he though so).

My H does not drink. Has very little tolerance to alcool. (It played it's part but not all)
Now he avoids as much as possible any kind of event. And he does not drink at all.

Going out with his professional coleagues is out of the question. Still the business events are a trigger for me. He attends some meetings but comes home as soon and always skips the bar part.

So I guess there's nothing wrong with going to bars until infidelity comes in and destroys that pure inocent and TOTAL trusting relationship you had.

I also agree it has to do with character, I never cheated and I don't think I would no matter how many drinks or events I'd go.

MEDC - I think bars can fuel an affair or lead to one night stands if a person is inclined. Over the years, I've shared drinks with colleagues and gone to numerous leaving parties alone. I always invited my husband but he didn't want to come. He's not a sociable person and has ill health so I thought I was doing him a favour by not insisting he came too. His reluctance to accompany me led to my independent behaviour. And then HE had an Affair when circumstances would have suggested it was me who might have been tempted. So I can't help but feel it doesn't really matter where you are - bar, workplace, gym, park, computer, drunk or sober. Somehow, my husband felt entitled to his A whilst the thought never crossed my mind.

I go to a bar once a month for my quiz meeting. My husband drives me there but has no interest in joining the team.

If 'going to bars' means 'drinking alone or with people that aren't friends of your marriage, and striking up convo's with alluring strangers,' then NO.

On the other hand, I don't drink, and I regularly (about once a month/every other month) go dancing at a gothic or metal dancenight. I wish it could be more often (dancing to those types of music is one of my favourite things to do, unrivalled by anything except maybe the horizontal tango), but to go more often would mean to go to another city. D doesn't always come, actually he finds dancing rather boring and can't always drum up enough friends to talk to, so he usually stays home to watch TV. I then go with one of my female friends (depends on which club I'm going to - I've got a gothic dancing buddy and a metal dancing buddy). I wouldn't go alone, I wouldn't drink even if they did happen to carry something I like, but staying sober and with a same-sex friend has kept most of the sleezeballs away, and if not, we make them leave quickly enough. Strangers chatting us up interferes with the mission, which is getting as many dancing minutes in before the club closes.

I'd still prefer that D went with me, but he doesn't. I fell in love with him while he was dancing, so it's such a pity he won't do it anymore. But what's a girl to do, languish at home and completely lose my favourite hobby? The only POJA he's satisfied with is "you go, I stay here." I think I'd afford D the same leeway, although I'd be all over him if he wanted to do more RC stuff, so he wouldn't HAVE to go alone!

My "F"WS is a stbx - so the "F" refers to spouse status rather than "W" status, so yes he can go to an exotic strip club for all I care.

I believe I mentioned that things would be a lot different for a (F)WS than in marriage not affected by adultery.

As to the poster who said they can go to bars as a BS but their WS cannot, I don't see a problem with this - especially if the A was associated with bars of any kind. Sorry, but this is just one of the consequences of infidelity. This could even apply to the coworkers-last-day-send-off scenario where nobody's spouses show up or would ever want to (probably the least threating of all the bar situations).

And for those WS's who managed to have A's in the types of bars I considered to be nonthreatening, shame on you. You would probably have an A at the grocery store. Honestly, I see very little difference in my experience. It's your personal boundaries that are wrong here. It's not the bar's fault.