I'm sorry you had a bad experience on that thread. I have learned a lot about MB here, but I've also used this place to make me feel better, so I might not be here for the right reasons, myself.

I think you're going to come across all kinds of people here, GG. Most of them mean well, I think.

But...I personally think that you're going to always run into a few who have a very dogmatic approach to things while others will pick and choose from the menu to suit their situation. I have to wonder, though, if those who choose to be dogmatic were very badly hurt at some point.

I think if you can apply two or three things and it improves something or makes you feel better, then go for it and maybe try a few more later on.

Thank you for the compliment. Years ago, I wanted to be a child psychologist or to go into social work. I was told not to..."You're too sensitive. It would be heart breaking" yadda, yadda, yadda. I was young, impressionable, and I listened.

I like to write, so maybe I'll try that out some day. lol

"she SIMPLY will not allow me to do anything nice because I think she is afraid of losing some anger."

It's funny you should say this because the other day when I was posting to you I wanted to badly say that I think your wife is addicted to her anger and that addictions are hard to contend with when trying to improve a marriage. I was going to mention that Dr. H thinks separation is advisable in situations of addictions. But...I don't know if he would advocate separation in your case or not. You know...you might consider calling them to see what they think about your unique situation.

Oh well, another beaut of a conversation with my dear wife.

My oldest son, the one she wanted to send to boarding school (and I agreed) is in college. I am really hesitant to say that he will make it. My wife is less optimistic than me. Now he is a very selfish type person. He thinks nothing of putting people out and gets real upset if anyone asks him to do anything that requires the smallest sacrifice. (I know, doesn't sound like much, but hes my child and I love him, and so does my wife. Many tears have been shed over this guy, by both of us.

He called and said that he forgot some stuff at home and if I can bring it when I come up to visit. Well my mom wanted to say goodbye and good luck, but she was in Italy when he left for school. So she wanted to go up this weekend and see him and give him stuff she brought him from the old country (you know, proscuitto and Reggiano Parmigiano, olives, anchovies, stuff like that..) So I said, sure why not, I'll kill two birds with one stone. Well I told my wife this. Oh boy, what a mistake. "He packed sloppily, not like I told him, he didn't care about bringing the proper stuff up with him, he can go BUY what he needs (that killed me, I would NEVER expect her to say go spend money on something we already have) blah, blah. I said, I didn't realize he didn't pack properly, she never said ANYTHING about it to me, she said I SHOULD KNOW ANYWAYS. I told her I knew she was right about him, and that after this trip i would imform him that I won't be bringing stuff to him if he is careless and could go buy it himself. I just felt that he needed it, my mom wants to see him anyway, and I would be more judicious in the future.

But, oh no, she had to carry on, it led to past actions, things I had done in the past, lies, etc, etc. I apoligized for those things, saying I understand if she didn't believe me now. BUt she just couldn't understand why I didn't see things her way. And she told me and told me and told me. I finally kinda lost it and raised my voice, telling her "Look, I already told you I see your point, I already told you that I would tell him no more, I already told you that we think differently, but you STILL want to argue with me. You CANNOT stand it that I think differently than you!! I've already met you half way on this! But you continue to try and bully me, because you know you can. You do it over and over and over." It sucked.

WE hardly talk, I hate it when the few times are wasted but she can not talk to me with hating me and pushing me...because she knows she can. You see I KNOW shes a tough love type parent, and I know that I am an easier going parent (Now, not when they were small) I admit that I would sneak around her back to take the kids to things or buy them stuff that she didn't want. I told her already I'm sorry for it. I'm Italian, we tend to spoil our kids. I wish I could take it all back, but I can't. But, I know that while she wants to tough love him, I know that she is being extra hard on him because he hassles her so much about what she is doing to me and them. My youngest has gotten into spats with her this summer over how she acts and he is basically a dream kid.

God, that rambled long. I don't even mind if you don't read this. Its boring as all helll and I just needed to let it out.
Good night.

Thanks for the advice, Soolee. I always say I should call Hartley (his son, right?) I think I may pursue it a bit more. Now.

PS: You DO write like a pro though. You being sensitive is what would have made you a GREAT CP. You can't be good at something you don't feel down deep, in your heart. Counseling ain't mechanical drawing.

It seems like the kids are a big issue (arguement issue) with you and your wife. I think Dr. H has some book(s) out on HNHN for parents or something. Not sure it would apply.

I think the raised voice was long over due, frankly, but you have to realize that I'm desensitized to that sort of thing. You've been keeping a lot of stuff inside, so maybe this was not such a horrible thing. How did she react?

As far as the phone call from your son, it might have been a good opportunity to tell he and your mom that you'd have to call them back and then talk to your wife about it, but you know...hindsight is always 20/20, right? Maybe in the future with issues involving the kids you two can think about POJA. You don't have to call it that. Just tell her that after the arguement, you figured it might be a better idea to sit down and discuss how to handle things as they come up. And if you catch her making decisions about them without your input, you're going to need to speak up and tell her that, you were serious and would like to be included in the decisions involving your sons. Learning to POJA as parents might be a good way to learn how to communicate better in other areas later on. It's something you'd need to learn how to do whether you were together or not, so she shouldn't feel ultra threatened by the prospect of trying harder on this one particular issue.

What you can do is put the things he forgot on his bed, in plain view, and if she tests you and asks why they're on the bed, you could tell her that since you weren't aware of the circumstances prior to your conversation with your son, you plan to take them to him since you're going anyway, but with a warning. You could also ask her again if his buying new items is the way go, especially if you guys are footing the bill. There are other ways to send the message that irresponsibility costs something - send the items and have him reimburse you for postage or deliver the items, and have him reimburse you for gas and mileage.

The 2 of you could brainstorm and come up with a fitting way to teach him a life lesson - together. This might show him that being irresponsible costs something. He might not like it, but if it's something you and your wife could agree on...realizing you two could actually POJA on something might speak volumes to both your wife and your kids. And...once POJA was agreed on, you'd have to stick with it and support each other - no undermining.

You just have to remember that POJA is not blindly agreeing to your wife's way of thinking because of her strong personality or your high esteem for her intelligence and judgement. Your children are the perfect platform for you two to talk more and come to agreement on things. These are your children too. It's about sharing ideas and coming up with solutions together. Just think about it a bit.

If she insists on doing things her way, and it isn't something you feel is quite right, you need to convey that you aren't comfortable with it and therefore want to talk about it more until a mutual decision can be made. If she insists, you will have to warn her that you might not be able to support her idea then, and it could be rather confusing to the children.

I'm not sure if this is the right word I'm looking for, but maybe it's time to start being more pragmatic (?) about your relationship with her. Two things are pretty sure - no matter if you stay together or not.

1. You have to finish raising your children together.

2. You'll still be the main source of income and support.

So, if she doesn't want to be a loving wife and a supportive partner, fine. But, you two need to pull your sleeves up and work together on the things that won't change, even if you divorce. If you can't figure that out, the fighting will not stop after she leaves. Whether she likes it or not, you're going to be a part of her life for the rest of her life - chances are your kids will give you grandchildren eventually.

You need some boundaries when it comes to her bullying, gg. It's really plain and simple. Eliminating the AOs was good, but not communicating your displeasure at how you're being treated is detrimental and counter productive.

Try and experiment - just think about it. When she starts up next time, put your hand up and tell her to stop and speak in a civil tone, or you'll have to leave. If she keeps it up, tell her you're going but will be open to talking about it later after she's calmed down. Do what you threaten to do. Take the keys and go for a drive. Check up on your workers, or whatever.

If you stay, you're sending the message that you'll put up with it. You're setting a precedence of how you're willing to be treated. Pretend she's a radio, playing an offensive song, and turn her off (by leaving.) Take the source of her perverted pleasure away, and she's likely to be furious at first, then deflated and hopefully reflective. Thing is, you have to be consistent so that she gets the picture that her way of communicating is unacceptable. She's smart; she'll figure it out eventually. It might take some time, so be patient. This is ingrained, remember.

And you know GG - if I were you, I'd sit down and outline your situation before you call the Harleys so that they have a good understanding of your relationship, and then I'd call them. There might be a waiting list, but I think I'd ask them how to deal with your wife when she gets like this and how to help your kids deal with it. Maybe then you'll feel better about knowing what is best with their validation and support.

Talk to Cat some more about this particular issue. She has her teenage daughter dealing with her husband, and maybe she could advise you on this better than I can.

You think your wife is smart? You think you can't teach her anything? Think again.

I'm sorry it's so miserable. I agree that anger is her crutch. Just like being a victim is my H's crutch. It keeps them from having to analyze themselves; it gives them an 'out' if things go poorly or they look bad.

I try not to say this too often, but I really think separating temporarily would be the best for your situation. One, it would give you time to live without constant anger and belittling. In abuse situations, it's the only way the victim can escape the cloud of negativity the abuser surrounds them with; so that they can realize they are an ok person, and maybe that abuser person is all wrong. You need to start liking yourself again.

Two, she'll have to face the truth of how much you really do for her and the family, once you're not doing it any more.

Three, it might shake her up enough to make her question her methods.

Four, it will be a blatant response to her actions and make it obvious to anyone what's going on. Maybe you'll get some help from people.

And fwiw, I am glad you stood up to her. She needs to hear the damage she's doing. Do it more.

Cat
Whadda you think? I like soolee's idea about taking a piece of paper and coming up with a list of how to deal with him with my wife. Lets agree on how to do things. My only concern is that she will initially agree, because she LIKES to think that she is open minded and is a person who discusses and meets halfway. But she is FOOLING herself. She'll start, and the FIRST time I see things differently, she starts her campaign in trying to change my mind. And she wouldn't stop until I agree. It happens all the time. And if you tied here up on a train track with a train bearing down on her, and agreed to untie her is she would admit her stubbornness, she would let that train run right over her.

With your teenager, do you like the tough love thing? I like it. I like that my wife is tought, I really do. But I KNOW she is being extra tough on him because he hassles her about me. And to tell you the truth, him hassling her is fine by me. HIS life is getting effected also. BUt, I admit, he is EXTREMELY unlikable. Selfish, moody, lazy, lying, while he CRAVES understanding and sympathy he offers NONE or very little. But he's mine. And I know it stems from a feeling of self worth. Or the lack of it. ANd hes to lazy to try and ACHIEVE things, things that would make him feel better about himself.

Any suggestions? Thanks a million.

Soolee

About the way we talk. We'll start off calm. Statements are exchanged. Usually I will validate what she is saying. If I disagree I will tell her that while I see her point, I think that ...this, this, and this. And, like clock work, I can see that because I don't agree 100% with her, she goes on the offensive to change my views, and reinstate her control over the situation. She'll tell me why I'm wrong and bring up past things that I did that were wrong, sometimes from 20 years ago. After 10 minutes of back and forth where I'm telling her I understand her point, but....she will get more insulting and then I begin to raise my voice......ANd she goes into the infuriating "Bill, why are you raising your voice?"" all cool and collected....

Man, that ticks me off. She's trying to pull a power play isn't she??

Maybe not power play, just master manipulator.

gg, this is WAY off. Do you see the fallacy in this statement? You are giving her your power. She has NO power to make you agree. You agree because it is worth it to you to agree. Why? Have you figured this out yet? It is valuable information - your payoff for backing down and letting her calm down. I do it all the time - my payoff is no more of my H yelling, or belittling me, or the looks he gives me that tear my esteem to shreds. But that's a payoff based on falsehood. Only I can decide to trust myself and tell myself, when he goes off on me, that I am just as valuable, just as smart, just as worthy of having an opinion, just as likely to be right. Until I can look him in the eyes and KNOW these truths, I will always back down. So will you.

I get that her constant belittling has shredded your ego. But you can do something about it. Attend seminars. Get out and interact with people who admire you. Broaden your horizon. Start feeling like a whole person, so that the next time she tries to manipulate you, you can LAUGH at her and say "Really? That's your argument? That's all you got? Well, I think I'll stick to my opinion, then. Thanks anyway." And then walk away, not caring if she sides with you, is angry with you, gets colder...all things that are HERS to own and over which you have no control. But you do control yourself. Work on that!

As for your son, he!! yeah, he needs some tough love. You are doing him no favors not holding him accountable. Not just for forgetting things, but for being disrespectful - even of your wife; it's your job to tell him to stop disrespecting his mother, your wife, for not owning to his responsibilities, for not showing integrity, for taking the easy way out, anything else he was supposed to have learned from you.

It's not too late to try to teach him these things. Above all, show him that now that he's an adult, he'd better start acting like one cos the days of taking care of baby boy are over. This may be the best thing you can ever do for him.

You can do this without alienating him, if you do it with logic, like I do with D17 (18 in 4 days!). When I refuse to iron the shirt she said she would hang up and needs in 5 minutes, I teach her to be more responsible the next time - but I TELL her why I'm refusing ('it's my job to teach you to be a responsible adult, not to make your life easier'). That way, she not only learns the consequences, she understands why she's suffering them and is 10 times more likely not to do it again. And she doesn't have the right to be mad at me for it, because it was HER irresponsibility that created her own problem in the first place.

Start trying this. He'll respect you for standing up to him and he'll respond to your heightened expectations by trying to live up to them. Kids will only rise to the height you set for them. If you expect him to be lazy, he will be.

As for your wife, explain to her your new philosophy. Tell her you're going to start expecting more from him. Ask her to join you so you can be a united front. Tell her that you'll no longer tolerate his disrespect of his elders (her). She needs to hear from you that you will defend her. Invite her to sit down and make a list, but I am not sure it's necessary. If nothing else, you can start saying to him "I'm going to talk it over with your mother, and we'll get back to you." She may respond to your including her, not coddling him, by engaging more with you.

"Kids will only rise to the height you set for them."

GG - just to reinforce what Cat is saying - my mother (74 and raised 4 girls and helped with a lot of the neighborhood kids, nieces and nephews) often says something very similar - basically if you expect your kids to fail, they will. If you show confidence in your children, tell them you trust their judgment, they will often choose the right thing to do because it felt so good to have Dad or Mom say those things, and what a bummer it would be if they stopped saying them.

Your son sees you as a victim; are you comfortable with that? It's nice to have an ally, but he's a kid, and this shouldn't be at the cost of their relationship. Ask yourself what you can do about that. Maybe a long talk with your son...assuring him you're there by choice - not a victim - his mother isn't the bad guy - that you both are to blame - and that you've been trying hard to repair things, but that you can only take that so far without her forgiveness. A good time to reassure him that you've always been faithful, that you believe in the sanctity of marriage and hope that he does too. I'd put that possible question to rest in his head, and it's a good thing for a dad to tell his son - for future 'reference' when he gets married himself.

"And, like clock work, I can see that because I don't agree 100% with her, she goes on the offensive to change my views, and reinstate her control over the situation. She has a strong personality; there's no denying that. How about continuing to validate with "I can see you feel very strongly about this. She'll tell me why I'm wrong and bring up past things that I did that were wrong, sometimes from 20 years ago. How about telling her that you are no longer interested in hearing about such old transgressions. You can't do anything about them at this point, you've apologized, and there is nothing that can be done. They happened so long ago, and you're very tired of hearing about them repeatedly. Anything older than a month ago is really petty and obsolete as far as you're concerned. You've been working on trying to be a better person for over a year and would appreciate it very much if she would quit bringing up the past. After 10 minutes of back and forth where I'm telling her I understand her point, but....she will get more insulting This is where you hold your hand up and say 'Stop. I can't stay if this conversation continues along this line. You aren't accomplishing anything by being cruel, and I'm not accomplishing anything by putting up with it."and then I begin to raise my voice You won't even get to this point. You'll already be out of the room, if not out of the house.......ANd she goes into the infuriating "Bill, why are you raising your voice?"" all cool and collected.... " Because you can't seem to hear me and because I'm concerned about you. You aren't the same woman I married, and you aren't the same mother to our kids. What's going on with you? Basically FORCE her to reflect.

GG - You might try recording her. Then playing it back for her so that she can hear herself.









[i][/i]

Cat and Soolee

You guys are unreal. That advice is some of the BEST stuff I've ever read on this board. It may be hard, but it is true. And I realzie that much of that advice is meant for me to be a better person, an attractive person, NOT neccesarily geared to making my wife love me again. In fact, while I hold out PRAYERS for that, I hold out little hope.

Cat
Do you still love your husband? Always, throughout your post, no matter HOW MANY annoying points you write about him, there are always sentances stating your admiration for certain traits and talents. I'll tell you, I'm jealous. I would LOVE to hear tender words again. She always rags at me because my wallet is nasty and stuffed with scraps of paper. She tells me to clean it out or THROW out all the paper and stuff I don't need, wallets are meant for money, ONE credit card and a few biz cards she says to me. Yeah, your right I tell her. I'm embarassed to tell her that the money, CC and Biz cards are meaningless to me. Its those scraps of paper that mean everything. All little notes, from her from the past 10 years. They may just say Good Morning! on them, because I would DIE to get a good morning note these days. And any note the had a heart drawn on it, or the word love, sweety, babe, anything that expressed effection for me meant EVERYTHING to me.

She still writes me notes with the word love now though. Like "I would LOVE to leave your sorry asss" or "I love it when you're not home".....and so on.

As far as my son is concerned, you are so totally right. My responsiblity IS to teach him how to be a good man, NOT to make his life easier...... I've failed miserably. But how do you teach someone something you yourself know so little about. He sees how when you screw up, even the people closest to you rebel and hold it against you. So he sees me as a screwup. He wishes my wife would forgive me, but to him, I'm a screwup.

And that leads me to your last valid point. Yeah, my ego has taken a TREMENDOUS hit this past year. I am no longer as confident at work, in front of women or men. I don't remember the last time I had a real belly laugh, you know what I mean? Or even the last time I hummed a favorite song. Helll, I don't even listen to music at all anymore, its all too sad.

Soolee
It was dead wrong of me to allow him to hassle her. Even if it made me feel good, it was wrong. I promised to protect my wife. I have no excuse to break that promise, even if she is acting the way she is today. Thank you. I do feel like a victim, though. I am NOT a victim of a bad woman, I am a victim of LACK OF FORGIVENESS. I know that sounds terrible, but that is the way I feel. But, you are right. I will have a talk with him this weekend, about things Cat has said and what you have told me. Respect his mom. And she deserves his respect, she really is a tremendous mother. SHe loves him lots and lots.

And I think I'm gonna do the walk away thing you both suggest. I won't take it anymore. I really CAN'T change the past. I've said I'm sorry over and over again. I have PROMISED to TRY and change. But, I can't change the past, so I will not dwell on it.
(I'll bluster that to her, but I really can't help but kick myself in the dupa over it)

Thanks again you guys. I'm leaving to see him tomarrow. One last thing. He wants a tv for his room. A restaurant pal of mine will give me a HD flat screen tv he had in his bar and has now replaced....no charge. Should I give it to him? My wife said that if he wants one, he should buy one. But, heck I'm his dad, it ain't costing me anything and he can save his money. But my wife wants him to suffer. Sure she want to make him a better man, but I think there is a little revenge factor hidden away in there. Thanks guys, as always.

If she doesn't want you to do this, then you shouldn't and you shouldn't tell your son that it's because of her either. You have to present a united front. "Your mother and I talked, and we decided that..."

You're disrespectfully judging her about the revenge thing. You don't really know how she feels because your communication with her has been off. You aren't following POJA with the parenting if you do it against her wishes, and it won't help your situation with her.

I suggest you talk with your wife and ask her how she feels about the two of you holding the TV in storage and telling him that he can have it after he achieves a (fill in the blank) grade point average. You can also ask the friend to donate it to the school and claim it on his taxes as a donation. Maybe it would do well in a waiting area or in a classroom. You can talk to administration to find out what he needs to have on file for his taxes. Something likely with the school's letterhead on it that they accepted it from him.

{{{gg}}}

Just remember, just the fact that you're here, trying to learn and improve, puts you leagues ahead of 90% of the people out there.

I've gotta ask, though, what you describe your wife saying isn't just anger, or revenge. I actually can't even place what it IS, it's so abnormal. "I love it when you're not home"? gg, that is NOT normal. Normal people don't talk that way. I've never heard of ANYONE talking that way to their spouse, short of someone who's being held prisoner or something. It's all very bizarre, so the only thing I can think of is that your two personalities, added to her FOO dysfunction, are so diametrically opposed and incompatible, that you simply can't live together without venom. If you were a stronger personality, I think you'd be spewing as much venom as she does.

I think you've been sucked up into this dysfunction for so long that you can't see what a normal household or relationship is like. I really, REALLY wish you would separate, at least for a few months, just so you can breathe some fresh air and see what normal people live like. Please think about it.

So what to do?

Again, I have to go back to what you can do - for YOU. Doing anything for her at this point is simply so far out of your range of ability that you'd just be wasting your time. I think I've said this before, but try to imagine that she has died. What would you be doing with your life? Focus on that, work toward it, and build your life back up to where you would be if you hadn't been dragged down with all her BS. Create that great life I can tell you're capable of, grow your business so that it works for you, expand your relationship with your kids, get your degree and change your career. You'll be so busy on this you won't have time to worry about what she's doing.

And if I had to guess on any success with her, I'd say that this is the only path you can take that might possibly get her to come around to not being mad at you and actually liking you - you moving on with your life and taking care of yourself instead of kissing up to her.

Anyway, yes I guess I do still love my husband. I have a lot more compassion for him than I did 9 months ago, because I've been able to see my part in our problems, and see how he's been reacting to what I've been doing to him. Things are finally looking up for us. Because I took steps to change.

You tell him the truth. You admit you don't have all the answers but you have all the hope in the world for him, and you would like to work through it together, if he'll allow it. I promise you, he is dying inside waiting for his parents to reconnect with him. Why don't you look into doing things with him that will help both of you? Did I ever tell you about www.bettermen.org? It's kind of a mens-only organization run by a counselor who helps men become better people. Please go to their website and see if there's something there that appeals to you. They have workshops, courses, books, mentoring....an awesome place for men. I think you would both benefit from it.

As for the tv, he doesn't need it. He needs to be studying. He can watch the crummy little tv in the common room like everyone else. If you must do something, offer to let him earn the tv through work projects or layaway.

Soolee

After over 30 years with ANYBODY, you can 99% read what is going on. Now there IS a 1% chance I'm wrong here, I ADMIT that. BUT, there is also a 99% chance I'm right. And thats ME just being politically correct. I know I'm right. And thats NOT something I take lightly. I almost ALWAYS think that I am wrong. You know that. You've read it over and over. Me pointing out the obvious is NOT me being ANYTHING but honest. But, again, I KNOW the old saying "DO I WANT TO BE RIGHT, OR DO I WANT TO BE MARRIED" She wants him to suffer BECAUSE he sides with me. She's human. I would PROBABLY do the same thing. I would probably make my kid learn the HARD way if he gives me a hard time, NOT THAT I would want to EVER leave my wife.

I'll ask my wife about the TV. I already know the answer. He will go without a TV. She will tell him IF HE WANTS ONE, HE WILL HAVE TO BUY ONE. And after he BUYS one, she will rag at him on WHY DID HE SPEND HIS MONEY ON A TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is OVERWHELMED WITH HATRED AND RATIONALIZING WHY WHAT SHE IS DOING IS, IN FACT, RIGHT. My challenge is to tale the BYE ROAD or the HIGH ROAD. She is, at this point, as unlikable as my son. Shallow, vindictive, nauseating and, still, at this time STILL my wife. I'll take the high road....but I am fully aware, that it IS the HIGH ROAD I am travelling on.

Again, I want to restate : I know my wife. If, after 30 years, I DIDN'T know my wife, I would NOT be paying attention, and she HAS ALWAYS BEEN , THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN MY LIFE. I may have screwed up, taken things for granted, but SHE was #1 in my life, always and forever. So I KNOW her, in and out. She may STILL DO THINGS THAT SURPRISE ME, but those things would be the exception to the rule.

I won't give my kid the TV. I called him last night. Unsurprisingly he wanted stuff and became annoyed that I was ticked that his list of stuff wasn't ready. He TOLD me to bring money, not asked because he spent some on stuff he forgot to bring up when he was so reluctant to pack. I wanted to reach through the phone and beat his a$$. I guess he talked to my wife which would explain his attitude, or at least part of it. The other part is his naturally. So that means they duked it out over the phone, as usual. When I got home, her bedroom light was on, when she knew I was home, she shut it off. So, I was right. They fought. THat combined with our disagreement the night before and she is one sweet, lovable person. So its up to me to figure out what he wants, pack it and bring it. They both don't deserve what I do for them. I tell you guilt drives you to do stupid stupid things. Whenever I feel like this I need to go over all the stories she said I did so that I calm down and stop being mad at her.

But at this point, all I wish is bad stuff on both of them. I'm sure it will have blown over in the morning. BUt for now, I'm just sour at both.

PS: I have to say again though. I know it goes against DR H teachings, but this DJ stuff is off with what I said. It MAY be disrespectful, but its TRUE. I KNOW her. I'M not filled with constant hate, SHE IS. HER views are skewed by that hate. If I do ANYTHING, I WHITEWASH her, because I just want to be with her again. But the truth is the truth.

Just like last night, she told me she won't believe anything I said because all my lying in the past (from not wanting to take a verbal beatdown if she knew I did something she didn't agree with)) Wrong I know, I've apoligized BUT after a while you are just sick of fighting over the littlest thing, the littlest differences in outlook. Well, after she said that, I told her "Well you know something, I lied in the past because I didn't want to hurt you, because you take everything so personally. And you know what I mean because you're lying to me about stuff for a while now, and you know it" She just looked at me....and said "like what?" Again I KNOW her, if she said this, I know she is snagged. I was BS, I didn't know she was lying, I just FIGURED she was lying because of the way she is, all the hating thats consuming her. I said "I not going into it,playing 100 questions, you know what you did, and I know, thats where this conversations ends." After a bit of silence she said "What, about where I go?" I said, "Enough, I know, that all I'm saying" So she is lying about where she goes. Time to buy a recorder I guess. BUt, my point is, I KNOW MY WIFE. We've been together a long time.

I hope you guys have a GREAT weekend. I hope I do EVERYTHING you guys have told me, I know it may hurt WHILE Im doing it, but deep down, I know its the right thing to do.

GG - I do agree that it's probably time to record her and possibly hire a PI. Her behavior is just so strange, and you really do need to know what you're up against.

You can't fight something if you don't know what it is. Store up what you find and keep a file somewhere; that's if you even find anything, but don't give her any more edge than she has. She's likely to go dark for a while, now that she knows that you know 'something.' Maybe wait a week for a PI, but seriously think about it. Maybe print off any e-mails that are relevant and file them away.

She also may have gotten herself a lawyer or a personal accountant, GG. That might be where she's going, so prepare yourself for that possibility. Like I said, it could be a number of different things - not necessarily infidelity.

A number of people here have found out important things by obtaining phone records. Now...I don't know how to do that, so if you wanted to find that out, you'd have to probably go on General Questions and find out how other people have gotten their copies. Does she have her own cell phone? Probably, I would imagine.

Also, you might be able to find some things out by going over the checkbook and seeing where the money is going. If she has her own checkbook, and if she's faithful about writing her payables down, maybe that, too, will be revealing. Of course, she could write anything in the book, but it's a possibility - especially if she's never had to worry about you snooping before.

During the last fight, we argued, again, about money. Basically I told her that I GIVE HER MY ENTIRE PAYCHECK, 100% of it. Week in and week out. With it, she can do as she pleases. I trust her to spend it judiciously because she has EARNED that trust. If I want something, I pay for it out of my biz or I do without. So when I buy something out of my biz, and she RAGS about it, its just not right. I told her to stop it. Its really NONE of her business. Its MY money. I earned it doing something she was totally against. I ASKED her to be part of it, she refused. So now, stay out of it.

I told her I don't know what she does with my paycheck and I DON'T CARE. After you guys brought up the siphoning money to start a savings account so she could leave, I thought about it. I think there is a very good chance she IS. But again, guys, go ahead. Its up to God to deal with that. She's begun to try and start an MLM business that has a product that is REPULSIVELY expensive. She says she is buying it to improve her family's health. I say nothing to her , but bu!!$hit, I know why shes trying to start this. ANd its MY paycheck thats going towards it.

Guys, I'm real, real sour about money. I feel it had a BIG part in breaking up my marriage. The constant worrying about saving for my wife, and the poor self image I formed for myself because of my previous inability to earn enough to make her happy. And its a self image that I just cannot shake.

The least I have ever earned while I was married, since 1986 was 40,000 dollars. I probably earned 50-60K working 2 or 3 jobs at a time. Now that I work for my self I make 3 times that and its about to jump up dramatically. And I still picture myself as a
loser, incapable of providing for my family, which is how she pictures me as well. I sent one kid to boarding school without loans, and am about to send two kids to college, WITHOUT LOANS, and I still get a stomach ache when I talk about money with her. I can SEE that our situation has improved (my wife also makes an additional 55K annually) but I DON'T FEEL better about myself. Because it was NEVER about the money for me, it was ALWAYS about making my wife HAPPY and secure about our finances. The restaurant biz, for me, provided me with A FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT, THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE PEOPLE (you know, the Italian thing, FEED people, lots and lots of food), and critically positive media reviews. Oh, and I knew I couldn't work for someone else, in this biz. But until the last 6 years, it has been a financial stuggle and it has had its effect on my self confidence and her image of me. I ALWAYS worked hard, always. And my working hard was always described as "working hard, yes, but I worked DUMB". Let me tell you, after a 90 hour week, the last thing I wanted to hear was that I was dumb. I worked hard in order to hit upon an idea that would be attractive to investors, and it looks like I probably have. Hey it took 20 years, but isn't PERSEVERANCE supposed to be a positive?

Let her keep the money. It was always for her anyways. I just want my wife back.

I have no idea what MLM means. Can you tell me?

How did your visit with your son go? Did you get some quiet time with your mother? Were you able to 'recharge your batteries' as I do when I go home to my parents for a visit? I hope so.

Hope the rest of your weekend goes well.

Again - she may be preparing to leave, but this thing with POJAing about your kids. The need for that isn't going to change - whether you stay together or not. How do you feel about working on that?

Do you think it might be easier to concentrate on 1 area of your communications with her at a time, rather than all of it at once?

Ok here it is in a nutshell.

You ain't gettin her back like this. Her taking the money FUELS her disrespect of you.

Do you understand this or do I have to yell?


You need to know the enemy and you aren't doing anything but wasting time.

Get a recorder in the car now and find out exactly what is being said to toxic friend and or affair partner who is BANKING on taking your money to fuel their greed.

AND DO IT NOW.

GG - I think the recorder is a start with all this. Why don't you make that your thing to do this week?

Just wanted to point out that GIVING anything to your son right now is the absolutely wrong thing to do. You are HURTING him by giving him stuff. He will never learn to take care of himself, so by giving him whatever he wants, you're teaching him to ALWAYS expect everything to be handed to him. You're proud of yourself for building up your business, aren't you? How can he ever be proud of himself if he doesn't have to work for what HE gets? That's right, he'll hate himself for being a big fat TAKER, but he won't know how to stop being a Taker, because you've never made him be a Giver.

Do him this one gift. Stop Giving to him. Pay for his room and board, tuition, books, and that's it. If he wants anything else, he can work at the college cafeteria part time to earn it, like everyone else. He might even make some friends, if he has to hoof it like the other students.

Pariah

From reading your posts, I can tell that you can fill me in on finding any info through snooping. I also know how much YOUR wife yelled and verbally abused you.

I've also been reading and occasionally posting on threads where a
newly betrayed spouse has come here looking for help. I am saddened to see that these newly betrayed emotionally wandering people are BOMBARDED with insults, questions about their manhood and abandonment. Why? Because the are hesititant to follow directions about a system they JUST started reading about, OR, worse yet, don't agree (at least at first) or a AFRAID to follow some direction posted. Now, the VAST majority of these abusive posts come from about 5-6 people. And, at least to me, it is quite obvious that these posters are here for their OWN good, NOT for the good of others. So, I read and I move on.

WHen I post to people I try and post like we have just met in person. Politely and with care. I realize that some of them have just had the biggest shock in their lives and are BIG TIME vulnerable at this time. I want them to stick around and I find that the best posters gradually post with more emphasis as they get familiar with the poster. I like that. Its called respect.A bunch of people here learned a process and FORGOT respect.

So, I would like your advice. I may not agree with it, but I will respond and tell you why I don't agree, and you can come back at me and explain to me WHY your stratagy was appropriate.
BUt, please, no yelling. If my wife does that now. I shut her out. If there is a post with a lot of yelling and a ton of insults, I read and move on.

I clicked on your name, brought up your list of posts and read through your story. You've been through hell and back. Its obvious I could use your snooping know how. I just won't get yelled at, allright? Thanks a lot.