Considering that I haven't liked my H for a good 5-10 years, and came here because I was planning to leave him as soon as D17 graduates next spring, there's not much passion there. He wants SF every day, he gets it about every 3 days. We stopped kissing years ago. I've been following MB, meeting more of his ENs, being more affectionate, and have grown to like him a bit more, as he has responded to the affection, but I still have unpleasant thoughts when I think of him. Well, mixed thoughts. Definitely not passionate or romantic ones.

Because he's controlling, always right, easy to tick off, prone to acting like a 7 year old if I ever question anything he says or does (he literally snapped at me the other day "Don't question me!" after asking him about something he told me to do), and questions or criticizes nearly everything I do. Yet, still, all he wants to do is spend every waking minute with me. In my world, every minute I'm not with him is time I get to be myself and don't have to be walking on eggshells the whole time. Time away is relished, time together is stressful.

I have been using MB since October; some progress. Two days ago, a week after D17 had a fight with him and told him all the stuff I felt but have been too intimidated to say out loud, he actually picked up his plate from the table and put it in the sink. I can count on one hand the times he's done that in 10 years. So I guess I can say MB is giving me hope.

I understand the idea of always wanting to be with your spouse. Personally, I feel like I do want to be around her right now. And when I compare activities I do without her to just sitting at home with her, home always wins. I am not always comfortable when I'm around her as I don't always know what to say and do, and I sometimes start sensing that I've worn out my welcome, but I am always eager to stay when she is willing.

But that is now. Then, when we were together and had problems, be around each other was often stressful, while apart was a relief. It's hard for me to believe that actually was happening as I look back, but it did.

So I can picture a future together where we have the kind of relationship mel describles, but it is far away. But I can't say that I feel any hurt at all when she goes out with friends to her monthly keno night or a HH (which is rare). And I don't feel like I'm hurting the marriage by going to monthly poker game or some other guy get together occassionally. I suppose that if we ever did become very attached to each other, then the independent behavior could be more noticable/damaging.

And I would agree that the goal should be to spend more quality time together, even if it is sometimes stressful.

It's about time you said that plain and clear!

How can you do this? Do you think it's good for your daughter to see?

dkd, I hope that you TRY Marriage Builders, because if I can have this kind of marriage, so can you. Dr HArley has helped couples that HATED each others guts learn to love each other passionately. I have NEVER, in my life been exposed to such a thing. But Dr HArleys claims are true if you FOLLOW HIS PLAN. And that is the key. You have to follow his plan and it will come.

You don't wait until you FEEL like being together, you get together NOW and learn how to enjoy each other. That is how this works. Do yourself a favor and go to a MB weekend, or at the least get coaching from Steve HArley. It will change your life if you GET IT and implement these principles in your marriage.

catperson, I hope you consider what I have said to DKD, because you are sitting on a goldmine but don't seem to be aware of it.

Mel, I'm doing all I can and using the principles where ever I can. But you can only do so much when your spouse wants a divorce. I feel like I've made progress, both of us are much better people over all, much more caring and understanding of each other. I can give her every reason in the world to change her mind, but I can't make her change her mind.

Mr. B,

Start a thread.

We need to talk.

I did, it's "Salvagable? Help..."

oops, there's that hopefullness, justified after reading today...

It's "Unsalvageable? Help..."

ml, I have learned quite a lot here. I just don't happen to have the same viewpoint as you. I don't recall saying anything about people being burned; must have been in the back of your mind. And I'm confident in my own wisdom, thanks; just comes from a different perspective and experience from yours.

I have been weighing the options since D17 was about 5 years old, when all our problems started (because of an evil stepmother). H's benefits typically outweigh his detriments. He's very conscientious, very ethical, very giving, very helpful, very amiable, very...everything - as long as I'm not standing up to him. Since coming here I've learned that because I had no boundaries and was raised to be a full-time Giver with no Needs, I just took over his mother's place and never thought twice. I had no problem meeting all his Needs cos he was the only one I was Giving for. By the time D17 was 5, 15 years later, it became much more complicated.

So instead of just planning to leave, I am now owning up to my own part in our problems and trying to ensure that I am doing no wrong, so that whatever happens, I did my best.

As for my D, she is handling his 'Right Man Syndrome' (or OCD) 10 times better than I. I've been very honest with her, she sees it for what it is - both his faults and mine - and has actually used all my psychology teaching to her advantage. And she tells everyone I'm her best friend. We went to a funeral viewing yesterday for her boyfriend's father (he died at 40), and she was telling me how devastated she would be if her dad died. So she's not losing love for him, she just thinks he needs to grow up. And she has no problem telling him so.

What goldmine is that? MB? As I said, I'm well versed in its principles, and it has made a noticeable difference in our lives.

You just don't seem to be willing to believe that he has no desires beyond me. When I was engaged to someone else, he would go home and tell his mom (lived with him) about the one love of his life, and how she was engaged, and how he was going to wait for her. He did; we got married.

I meant how do you demean yourself?

"He wants SF daily...gets it 3x's a week"

No woman should let herself be used this way.

From your few posts I would say you've tossed away a chunk of your life. Sad really.

I quite agree, iam. But it's how I was raised. My earliest memory was being told to be quiet and not make a fuss. My IC tells me I was taught to demean myself by my parents and brother. I was the 'child called it' in my family. Not that desperate, but basically the one who kept quiet while the older members did what they wanted. So I've spent a lifetime trying to learn how to feel like I deserve to have my own Needs. Not surprising that I end up marrying a guy who wants me to be his gopher, servant, lover, best friend, trophy wife. It's only nearing 50 years old that I start wondering whether I'll have anything else in my life. Sorry if that upsets you, but it's been my life. And why I turned to learning psychology to deal with it.

Absolutely 100% unequivocally agree!

Wow, you must have incredible stamina! After work, it's all H and I can do to just get the kids fed, homework done, teeth brushed, books read, kids to bed, dishes washed, clothes washed, and preparing for the next day. We can barely manage to go to all the kids' activities on the weekends between running errands, mowing the lawn, buying groceries, maybe going to church. I can't imagine having enough time for one of us to have a sports activity too, let alone having the time for the other one to watch it.


There are almost no same-sex folks at my work. About once every couple of weeks I get to talk to one. When I was in grad school I used to go to IHOP just to talk to the waitresses! LOL (No I wasn't trying to pick them up, I'm not a guy and I'm not a lesbian. I just got tired of being around guys all the time!)

Even before my knowledge of Marriage Builders, my H and I did not go to bars without each other. We simply always wanted to be together. We miss each other when we are separated.

I recall when my husband and I were first married, he got a new job. The folks at the job were going to go out together and it was a "no spouses" invited sort of thing. He felt that he needed to go since he was a new hire and felt social pressure. I did not like the idea of him going but I felt that I was being possissive, but couldn't help my feelings. He went, I sweat.

I wish I had had access to the MB philosophy at that time. I was not over-reacting. He did not have to go. But it was a small thing and we got through it.

There are a few other incidents like this through out our 30 year marriage. In all instances, marriage builders could have helped us sort things out.

So, does anyone do anything at all without their spouse: shopping, going to a friends house, etc.?

I'm understanding that a lot of you find it wrong to be in a bar where there is alcohol without the spouse.

I see you guys saying your spouse brings you the greatest joy and can't understand not wanting to spend every waking minute with them.

I play soccer twice a week. Once on Weds later in the evening and once late at night on Fridays (10pm...indoor soccer) after I have helped her get the kids to bed (she likes to go to sleep early). She will go most of the time to the outdoor games as their is a park located at teh fields. But we're not doing the activity together even though we're in the same location. Do you guys feel this is wrong and that it's poor boundaries or are you saying that I should give up playing soccer because it's not an activity that we're doing together?

Another thing kinda' related. I have throwing practice on Tues nights and Sat afternoons. She is typically working at these times. But occasionally she is not...if she is not working, is there a feeling these practices should be skipped. For those that don't know, I compete in the Highland Games. Many of these competitions are in Texas at the Scottish Games. We use this time as a family vacation. She loves going and I love going because I compete. This is along the same lines--we are in teh same location but we are not together for part of the time. If I didn't go to practices, I wouldn't do well in the competitions and wouldn't enjoy competing as I'd always get beat and thus would end the trips out of state to the festivals.

I don't think I would want to spend 24/7 with my spouse, even under the best circumstances. I DO want to see my girlfriends once in a while - not a big deal since none live close enough to see on a daily/weekly or even monthly basis. I have my horse which decompresses me in a way nothing else can - I ride after work before I go home. WstbxH was usually not home yet anyway so it didn't interfere with time spent together. And I really don't want to play golf or hang out at a sports bar with a bunch of screaming yahoos watching a bunch of overpaid jocks on the TV - so if he likes that it's actually BETTER he go out and do it than stay home and force me to watch it too. And I have my job. The work-related bar outings I refered to early - he would never in a million years have wanted to come. I work an hour away and it's usually at lunch. Even the rare after work things would mean he'd have to drive through rush hour traffic to join me. And he HATED every type of social event anyway. He didn't even go to my dad's funeral with me.

And honestly, even as a BS I don't think I could live in a situation where I'm worried all the time about what my spouse is doing. I WANT to trust him. Actually, I NEED to - because otherwise it would never be off my mind. My M is over, so maybe I'll have this in my next R. I don't know though. Does a FBS (since I'm no longer a spouse) ever get past being suspicious over every little thing? Even for somebody new who has never betrayed them?

Kilted, do you do the hammer toss? We are going to a games this weekend. Purely spectators, but it is a family fun time.

Since my H's affair I no longer enjoy doing things independently of him. I used to think it was harmless and fun, but as I look back I see a lot of damage done by our mutual independence. I had an activity that involved a half day every weekend and some very busy weekends and he was very disappointed when I quit-- because he liked having me gone a lot! (It gave him freedom to do things he shouldn't be doing.)

Most of your free recreational time should involve things that can be shared with your spouse. I said most, not all. The reason is that doing something enjoyable in the presence of your spouse increases love bank deposits. It doesn't mean she has to be tossing a hammer right there with you, but around, observing, cheering you on, etc. If she is not working, would you and she enjoy having her there with you at practice?

This is something that needs to be mutually agreed on-- you need to find a solution that you both enthusiastically agree on. It sounds to me like a little too much independent recreation, but that's me. The part that concerns me is not that you do something and she hangs out nearby-- I think that is a nice thing for both of you. What concerns me is the number of practices where she is not around-- three a week. If she is working, fine, but IMHO if she is not working you should try to find a way to include her.