Yeah Soolee

Pariahs right. I'm picking one up tomorrow. I started thinking. About 3 months ago, I was reading through some email messages between my wife and her toxic friend, using my keylogger. My wife was telling her friend to make sure and delete her messages as she thought I was reading them somehow (shes a teacher, remember?) She said something to the effect " Yeah, I thinks hes opening any email with a guys name on it. SHeesh!! So stupid!!"

I thought, 'so stupid' meant something like ' thats so silly' or "do you believe how jealous this guy is". And I STILL think that what she meant, but know I starting to think....what if the 'stupid' part isn't about me being jealous, but the 'stupid' part about me is that i only open GUYS emails!! I mean, I have snooped for signs of an affair for about 8 months now, and I have found NONE. The only places she goes, or repeated calls she makes, or people she emails a lot are to her toxic friend........Am I letting my imagination run away with me?? I have had this suspicion on and off.....In telling my counselor about it, HE brought up the idea of "have you EVER considered the fact that your wife may be a lesbian?" Let me tell you THAT shocked me. And about 3 weeks ago my oldest son and I were discussing his mom when he sheepishly said "Dad, I kinda think that Jane (toxic friend) might be a lesbian and like Ma. I don't think Ma likes her back, but if she does........I'm through with her, and so will grandpa and grandma (her parents. FOR SURE. Her dad is SO ANTI GAY, that he rants and raves and rages when ever he even LISTENS to [censored] BUttons!!!)

Well needless to say, those two instances FREAKED me out, big time. If it were true, I would ah......LOSE IT, BIG TIME. I would feel USED, a part of an experiment where she tried to find her sexual identity, 30 years down the drain. But, I must admit, at the same time, when I take into consideration the TYPE of HOMOPHOBIC family she came from, the terror in the realization that she might be gay must have mortified her. All those years with that on her back. In a stupid way, I would feel for her.....mad and all.

Oh yeah, in closing, I DID accuse her of having a lesbian relationship once with her same toxic friend and SHE TOTALLY LOST IT.....I mean, she was furious. I felt so bad that the next day, I picked up a nice case of wine and went to see the TF and told her of my accusation (because you KNOW my wife told her) and apoligized. SHe laughed and said don't worry about it, she grew up with no sisters so her and my wife have a great relationship. Her husband was present. I felt like saying ,"Yeah, I KNOW that you spend MOST of your time ripping your husband down one side UP the other....(and he DESERVES IT, that for sure) If there IS no romantic relationship with my wife, her TF simply wants to drag down another woman, have her leave me, so that the guilt arising when SHE leaves would be lessoned somewhat.

So, if she's being careful on EMAIL, maybe a recorder will give me some info, I don't know.........Night.

Cat
How bout this. ANd I really, really want you to thing about this before you answer. I want a cerebral answer, not one based on emotion, ok? (Not that thats what you do, but my plan is really out there. I was repulsed when I originally thought about it, and I STILL am not sure.) Here goes.

My oldest goes to college, right? Thats what he does. Basically, thats his JOB at this point. RIght? Now, hes going to college wo that he can get a PAYING job when he gets out. Following me? OK. NOw, in this FUTURE job, he works at something because he:

Likes it
It is fufilling
It is challenging.
ANd, of course its a paycheck at the end of the week.

Now, one thing about my knucklehead of a son is that he is a person that responds to IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION. You know, he could NEVER be in sales, because your gratification comes at the end of a sale. SOmetimes those sales take weeks, months and sometimes they fall apart after a long haul. So sales is out.

Now, we have sat down with him and told him, "Paul, you need to do well in school. Its 4 years, minimum, but believe us, 4 years goes by quick.(An 18 year older CANNOT fathom that)BUt, when you graduate, so many opportunities will be there for you. You will be rewarded then. Well. Thats delayed gratification. Telling him that is like telling him to move the empire state building. It is impossible for him to comprehend. How about:

I pay him for doing well? I know, I hear you yell. But wait. The important thing is that HE DOES WELL, no matter how (except dishonestly) If he does well, than he went to college succesfully. And you will say, what will THAT teach him....Well, it will teach him that if he APPLIES himself.....HE WILL BE rewarded with payment......LIKE A JOB. You've heard it a thousand times. "Go to college so that you can get a good paying job.....Well, this will give him the EXPERIENCE of APPLYING himself so that he can make this cash.

Something like.....100 a week. 50 to him and 50 in an account that will become HIS upon graduation. I mean, if you don't get caught up in the "you already pay for school, he SHOULD be grateful for that...", this makes a ton of sense. But, he is NOT grateful for school. He WILL be, but not now, and I would be bouncing my head off the wall, FOR NOTHING, trying to convince him to be grateful. I WANT HIM TO DO WELL. Thats all. I want him to begin to make the connection between doing well in his studies and getting rewarded. IF he doesn't FEEL rewarded by the simple act of learning......well, he doesn't...and unless I can figure out HOW to reward him with something he can understand.....college will be for naught. And I WASTE my money, and he wastes PRECIOUS time.

Cat, think about it. I know it goes against what you like, but IF he responses THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE. WHats the downside? That he begins to match up effort with money? Wow, join 99% of the world! (and NOT like your dumba$$ dad).

I WANT HIM TO DO GOOD. My only stipulations are:
1. It MUST be honest
2. Their MUST be an EFFORT. I DON'T want great grades with no
trying. This TEACHES him nothing.

He's gotten good grades in the past. But the good grades and the congrats ARE NOT ENOUGH. They are NOT good enough rewards for the effort...for HIM.

Go ahead, slam away.....but I think you realize I have a point here...no? Thanks Cat. I know you guys can find SOME problem with this.

Soolee

The weekend went ok. He was a miserable sob. I worry so friggen much about this kid.

TIme with my mom was nice. Its always nice. She is such a giver. After HER mom, (and my wife, for a while) she is the strongest woman I have ever known. Grew up DURING WW2. A twelve year old girl, never knowing a true childhood. Starting working the farm and caring for her siblings at 10 years of age.

At 10, she was up at 4 am and worked till 4 in the afternoon, trying to eek out a living from the ground. Then home, to help cook, clean and care for the younger members. Think about a little girl in the USA TODAY, doing that. To that add: Daily bombardments, frequent forced relocations, a drunken father, starvation at times (she told me that once or twice a week, they would eat GRASS to fill their stomachs, to stop the pain.)

Her CHRISTMAS was her biggest comfort. On that day, my grandmother would make certain that there was a small piece of meat in the family dinner. My mom would get a doll, yep a doll...made out of a potato for the head and fabric stuffed with grass for the body. If she was real lucky she would get ONE candy to go along with fruit.

There was 7 childeren, 2 more got killed during the war. When they weren't living in a 12x15 one room shack, they were cramped into a hole HAND dug out of the ground about 8x8, during bombings. Beside the 2 children killed, by grandmother involuntarily ABORTED a son. They were on a forced relocation march, she fell, and was kicked repeatedly by a Moroccan soldier. She crawled to the side of a building, delivered the dead baby, went to the campsite, where my drunken grandfather beat her for being late..........

My moms GIVEN to other all her life. Thats why its so important for me to make sure she has anything she wants now. And she wants so little. I remember she told me a story about coldcuts once. Actually about gabagool. Thats where I got my name. Because for some reason, this story stands for selfless giving. Now, like I wrote, there were 7 kids in my moms family. One day, my grandfather got a hold of some 1/4 lb of capocola (gabagool)in a barter. He took it home and gave it to my mom (the oldest) to share with her siblings. So she took out some homemade bread (the only thing they always had), carefully cutting open 7 small rolls of hard, day old bread. She drizzled the bread with water and olive oil to soften it. She opened the small package of meat. I remember her telling me that when the smell hit the room, all 7 starving youngsters let out a collective ohhhhhhhhhhh. Well, she carefully peeled off thin slice after paper thin slice, making sure that all the small rolls held the exact amount of fresh cold cut. As she got to the bottom, she realized that she had 1 slice left...but....two rolls. So, as this 12 year old girl stood there, in a ragged torn dress, hair thinning due to malnutrition, she took the slice and went over to HER bread. SHe took the slice and proceeded to RUB the meat on her bun, letting the AROMA of the capocola flavor the day old roll. She then put the last slice in her BROTHERS roll and gave it to him. She then went outside under a tree and eat every last crumb of that great SMELLING sandwich, smiling, knowing her siblings were "feasting".

Thats why my name is "gabagool". ANd thats why she shakes her head and cries every single time she hears about my marriage troubles. And, a lot of times, I am ashamed to confide in her.
SOmehow, she can ALWAYS see the bright side of things.

Whooo, I gotta go. Sorry about all the writing. I'm just proud of my mom, big time.

I'm not sure if this plan would work, but I do know this...If you do implement it and you find out that he's NOT being honest or is absolutely NOT trying based on your asessment of what trying is -- then you MUST stop the $$ immediately. And, any $$ that he built up to that point should be sent to Cat so she can spend it however she feels! No, kidding about the Cat part...But, really, you have to be able to back up your threats and carry through. Otherwise, you're simply being an enabler.

GG, are you a 'fixer' by nature?

Hi GG. It was such a difficult time back then in some countries. Your mother is such an inspiration, and we are truly so spoiled, aren't we? I'm ashamed at myself when I hear stories like hers. Yet, these things don't happen in vain. The stories live on, and they can be instrumental in teaching the young to be grateful. How is your mother's relationship with your son? Do they ever get time alone, to talk about her past? I hope so.

The depression was a very difficult time, I imagine. I know one year my mother got only a second-hand pair of boots for Christmas. Certain foods were rationed, and they learned to get by on much less. Of course, it was nothing compared to living where the fighting was going on.

As for your wife. You've really got me thinking. I, however, feel that even if your wife ends up being a lesbian, you two have kids together and are still going to need to work out some sort of system that will not drive each other batty with regards to the kids. And...she still should not treat you like crap. I mean...regardless of her sexual preference - you're a human being, and she shouldn't get away with that.

But...I was thinking about something. She maybe doesn't dislike you so much as she dislikes men in general. And...your eldest isn't a child anymore. He's a young man now, and maybe she is somehow pigeon holing him along with all other men. I hope that isn't the case. I hope she can look at him as an individual. You say she loves him lots; I believe you.

And regardless of how this turns out, GG - you're going to have to take her opinions about parenting into account and try to forget anything else about her but that opinion - not what she's done or is or whatever. Because there's a chance that she could be right. So...I guess what I'm saying is that somehow you're going to have to over ride your own emotions to listen to her opinions and be objective. Doesn't mean you agree, necessarily. But...if she has something important to add - something that makes sense - you're going to have to take that into account and not tab it as wrong because it's coming from her.

Anyway - please do get to the bottom of this for yourself. The lesbian theory makes a whole lot of sense - doesn't make it so. It's your job to get to the bottom of it, gather evidence if there is any, come up with a well thought-out plan, preferably with a lawyer's input, and confront her eventually.

Don't jump the gun. I've seen people jump the gun here only to have their wayward spouses go dark which prevents more evidence from coming forth. So...just maybe keep a file, like I said before. You can keep it at work under lock and key if you feel the need.

I can see why you're such a nice person, with such an amazing family. Do your kids get to spend much time with them?

About your son. He's too old to give him any sort of re-learning his life lessons, so if he's a Taker, there's not much you can do about it, other than to always model the better person. You know your son, I don't, so if you say he'd respond to the bribe, I believe you. The thing that scares me about it is that it's teaching him to look at college as just one more opportunity to 'get stuff.' Not an opportunity to become a better person. But the days for instilling that in him are long gone.

That said, I would never stop saying things out loud for him to hear, that he may remember later on. Kids will always look to their parents for role models, no matter how old they get.

About the college, I just don't know. I could certainly see telling my kid if you don't get As and Bs, and you're not working, you get no spending money from me. So I guess that's the same thing. But I don't think I would tie it directly to 'you got an A - here's $50'. My daughter's Korean friend HAD to make straight As, or she'd have h*ll to pay at home. So she just learned to cram for tests, and remembered none of what she crammed for. I guess I'd just make it a little more generic so he doesn't fall into that.

"I'm planning to let you go through college without having to get a job by me giving you spending money, because I think school IS your job for the next 4 years. However, if you find yourself spending more time on just hanging around instead of school, and don't keep your grades up, I'll feel less inclined to support that lifestyle, since that's not the purpose of college.

So here's how it's going to work. You're going to give me access to your grades online (or contacts for all your courses) so that I can review how things are going. If you're making As and Bs at the end of each month, I'll send you the next month's allowance.

If you're dipping down into the Cs and Ds, I'll put money on your food card or I'll send you a box of food to get you through the month. I'll be checking each month, so I urge you to pay attention to how you're doing.

And don't bother giving me excuses because this will be a steadfast rule for the next four years. Your choice - live on cafeteria and home food, and do whatever you like, or do your best and get to have the fun that goes along with being in college."

I think this makes the most sense for sure!

GG - I hope what I say next won't get you upset, but is it possible your son has lost respect for both of you because of what all has gone on in the household? Or...maybe he just feels he has taken from his parents' example what he can and that there is nothing new to learn?

Perhaps at his age, it is best to try and pair him up with a few good mentors versus trying to keep teaching him right from wrong. I don't know. If he's beyond listening to the two of you, maybe he does need to spend time with someone who can teach him a better attitude.

Maybe spending next summer with his grandmother, taking part in a volunteer project such as Habitat for Humanity, or working with children who are far less fortunate. What do you think? Maybe when he's home, you and he can volunteer at a soup kitchen together. They often need extra help around the holidays. This would give him a chance to actually see indigent people and recognize how difficult life can be.

I think most colleges have available a test that the student can take to see what types of work they might have a special aptitude for. Has your son taken a test like that?

Yep

NOW, I am. I'm trying to FIX my marriage. And my wife wouldn't allow it. I think PART of my mistakes were really BELIEVING the bull that todays woman DON'T want to be protected, that they want to be EQUAL.

I think while women WANT to be equal, there are inner feelings that STILL need to be met. Like the feeling of having a big strong husband that keeps danger at bay. And danger could be ANYTHING that threatens her and her childrens security. My wife IS VERY CAPABLE. I think I let her down in this regard. And it really started because her family DIDN'T want her to marry me at first. They said that because I was Italian, I would try and control her (and believe it or not, in her hatred for me now, she said that I was CONTROLLING. Thats when I knew she could think clearly)and keep her tied up in the kitchen making sausages all day. That really hurt me and I made the vow to disprove that. But, now, thinking back, I think I SHOULD have been old fashioned in some instances. But Monday morning QB'ing is a drag.

Soolee

My son RUNS from ANY opportunity to help those less fortunate than himself. I honestly don't know WHY. I mean, I know he is selfish and self obsorbed. But, I really don't know if it makes him feel really bad to see people like that or it disgusts him. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised.

Well

Picked up a voice activated recorder yesterday. Read up on it, trying to figure out how it works. A bought some velcro with a glue back and applied it. I am gonna put it in MY car for a few days, to try and see if there are any problems (falling off from under the dash, to much sensitivity, not enough, any beeps or anything to let her know somethings up) After I'm sure it will not be detected, I will put it under her car.

1. Is under the dash, near the steering wheel a good place? I can't think why she would ever go under there? ANy other place good?

2. Has anyone who has done this ever been scared to listen? I mean, if I pick up evidence for an affair, I'll be crushed, but how have others reacted to their spouse simply talking to someone else and just RIPPING their spouse, saying hurtful mean things? Man, I've READ some horrible things that have killed me, but ACTUALLY HEARING them? I'd have to brace myself.

3. ANd, I KNOW the chances are slim to none, but has anyone EVER been privy to a hot and heavy session going on in the back seat? Oh man, that would put me down for the count. My wife is super private and that would be TOTALLY out of character, but even a 1% chance is scary.

I'll keep you up on whats going on with this, thanks......

You know, I have another very dear friend who posts on here. Her H had a very long PA and basically flaunted it around her. But, through her own perseverence and love, they have been able to combat the badness in their marriage and are beginning to make some amazing strides. Basically, all of the positive change began once SHE started to work on herself.
My point is...work on YOU. Fix what you think is not working within yourself. If there is love present, your wife will be attracted to that. STOP IT!!! I know you well enough now to know that you will have a disclaimer about how he hates you and no amount of changes will make her stop...but, think about it -- at some point in time she loved you deeply. What was differnt about YOU then? What first attracted her to YOU? I believe this may be a key. I know it's been a long time and lots of stuff has clouded it all, but really jog your brain and try to see why she fell for you in the first place. Does that man exist any more or has he faded away? Just a thought.

I've read a couple of people here who used tie wraps to mount it under the driver's seat.

If your son is truly that selfish and uncaring of other people, the worst thing you can do at this point is make things easy for him. Make him earn that spending money, give him a taste of living like the rest of us joes who have to make ends meet; might give him some humility.

Just sharing GG - thought this was interesting...

http://life.familyeducation.com/college/college-prep/51067.html

Sorry Fiori

If it was JUST as simple as ME becoming better and she would respond, I would NOT need advice. I'd have to say NOW, I am MUCH better of a person that the person she married. NOT in every way, but in 98%.

I am NOT as breathtakenly handsome as I was when we married (my mom told me that)

I am NOT as secure with my MARRIAGE as I was when we got married.
(with GREAT reason)

I am much more jealous than I was. (Not of just guys, but everything. BUt, I don't show it or talk about it. But jealousy comes with insecurity. And insecurity comes with KNOWING where you stand...and I don't stand so good.

But:

My temper is better, not as hot headed.
I am MUCH more neat.
I DRESS neater and more to my wifes liking.
I SPEND MUCH less than I did when we first got married.
I am MUCH MORE like my wife politcally.
I have more money, which is HUMONGOUS when dealing with her
her FOO.
I've accepted the fact that our sex drives are different, took a
while, but I did. And believe me that was HARD. I find my
wife MUCH more attractive today than when we got married.

If I had been this way from the day we got married, I'd be IN LIKE FLINT. But I wasn't. And while I OWN my faults, my wife DENYS ANY and ALL faults on her side. I don't even TRY to engage in conversation that revolves around the theme "we BOTH made mistakes." She closes up OR blows her top. I've tried and I've given up.

No, it just isnt'gonna be that easy. I wish is WAS just a case of ME CHANGING and being great. She WONT ALLOW HERSELF TO ACCEPT IT. Its just the way it is. I know I have to do SOMETHING, after one year, I still don't know what.

Thanks for the effort, though. Walkaway wives are like WS. While a WS fog comes from lusting after another person, a WW's fog comes from closing her heart and mind to change and the possibility that they THEMSELVES may have contributed to an unfulfilling marriage......

You've tried Plan A for a year and had no luck. How about doing plan B? What are your plans if you don't find anything on the voice recorder?

Here's something else to think about. What could you teach your children by respecting yourself? By not accepting such horrible, horrible treatment by a partner? At this point, and given the outcome of your oldest, maybe your goal for the time being should be giving your kids the best role model possible, so that they don't spend decades repeating your mistakes.

Soolee
Thank you for a great article. I've copied it for my wife to read.
I wish the author had met my kid.

Happy

Plan B on a wife that THINKING of leaving? After plan a, I've basically withdrawn and leave her be. We live in the same house, but thats about it.

I wish I could be sure about what to do.

Well, if the recorder finds a affair, I'll go to plan A or B, depending how I feel (Whatever I say now will just be a guess)

But whatever happens, I WILL NEVER DIVORCE her. She may divorce ME, but I'm married to her for the rest of my life.

Now, IF someone could convince me to LEAVE in order to get this marriage of 24 years right, I MIGHT, but as of yet, NO ONE can say it will help for sure. ANd honestly, it scares me.

Cat
Well my oldest ALREADY says he will NEVER TRUST a woman, and since his mom is the BEST woman he has ever known, I can understand his stance. If the best woman in your life is on the verge of NOT honoring her vows and the BEST woman in his life cannot find the heart and the faith to FORGIVE, why should he trust anyone else?

But, to answer you other question, I hope to show the two kids that IF you love someone and MAKE A PROMISE to them, you try and keep it. And IF YOU SAY YOU WILL NEVER GIVE UP AND PROMISE TO FOREVER DO SOMETHING, well, I guess you try and show that YOU WILL KEEP YOUR WORD. ANd IF you make a mistake, or even a SERIES of mistakes, you move on, you ask for forgiveness and YOU TRY TO BECOME A BETTER PERSON. And MANY times in your life, even people who supposedly love or loved you will be mean to you, and let you down. ANd EVEN people as TOGETHER, AND LOVELY ,AND COMPETANT AND NORMAL as their mom can become weak from anger and unforgiveness and unwise outside influences. And that you STILL try to do whats right, NO MATTER WHAT.

Cat, thats what I'm trying to show.