Hi there,

I understand what you're saying I really do but have you thought about the fact that you may never get that??? That he may never leave OW and he may never apologize??

He could of course and he should apologize for the things he's done but what if he never does??

As a sidenote my stepfather sexually molested me. I told my mother who believed him instead of me. Years later my therapist asked me what would mend my relationship with my mother and stepfather because it was BAD. I said of course for them to apologize for what they did. The therapist asked me if I'd ever thought that I may never get that? That I had to come to terms with that for my peace of mind, not theirs.

That was a hard one. I eventually realized that harboring such anger against them was harming me. They were going on with their lives not giving one crap about what they'd done to me, not feeling any remorse, but yet I was angry and full of resentment towards them. It was bothering me but they were pressing on. So even though I felt like by being angry I was punishing them, truly I wasn't- I was punishing myself. Because that anger allowed them to control me.

Totally different situation here I understand- and for the things your WH has done to your kids I would have the highest righteous anger myself- I'm not saying you shouldn't. But it's food for thought at any rate.

I truly don't mean to offend by my comments.

SD- I would probably send the email/letter. She deserves to know what the kids are thinking about her actions. Can't say it will do any good but I don't think it's out of line. That's just me.

Just in case I was mis-understood:

Your WW won't be receptive to the email.

But it may be worth sending.

No offense taken at all, CW. We just differ in our opinions, and that is okay.


Yup, I've thought about it. If this is the case then I will continue to be CIVL. Not ever his friend or fake-friendly acting.

Anger does not rule my life. Most of the time it does not even exist. When something NEW happens or the original injustice is defended, I defend my position. Call it anger, call it boundaries, it ends up being the same thing. I will not allow a person who mistreats my family and I to be in my life anymore than absolutely necessary for DDs. Is that residual anger or a right I have to make in who is part of my life and to what degree?

Whether he apololgizes or not doesn't change my direction in life. It just changes whether he, specifically, is allowed closer to me.

Fox

You absolutely have the right to do whatever you want to with your own life.

I don't ever think that my ex will be friendly to me either- but as long as we an effectively coparent I'm good with that. I don't expect him to forgive me (even though I asked) or want me to hang around or come to things at his house or anything along those lines.

I just want to coparent with him peacefully if possible.

SD,

I had to shut down my computer, re-boot and get signed on just to post to you.

Honey, what do you think will be gained if you send that email?

Will suddenly the Fog be lifted and she will see the pain she has caused her children?

I don't disagree that a parent needs to know what is going on with their kids, but honey it is right there in front of her any time she has them for her to see for herself. She chooses NOT to see.

I struggled, struggled, struggled so many times with seeing/hearing from Ladybug how she felt. How hurt she was/is. How disappointed she was in her Daddy. How she loves him LESS. Yes, she has used those words. Just like last night, she was CRYING because she needed/wanted him to be with her when instead he was downstairs on match.com.

Do you think I didn't want to get him on the phone right then and there and let him know about it? You bet I did.

Bugs would have said, "I know you think she just doesn't want to take her shower,,,and I'm sure that's part of her problem right now. However, what she is REALLYwanting and needing is your undivided time & attention. She feels like the computer is more important to you than spending time with her when she asked you to".

Do you know what Drac would have 'heard'. "Ladybugs doesn't want to take a shower."

He would have then thought "so she cries to Bugs who babies her. She probably told Bugs I'm on Match.com and Bugs is mad about it and trying to interfere with MY PRIVATE life! How dare she! I'm a GREAT Dad and she just needs to butt out!"

Come on. Think about it. We both know that is what would happen in both of our cases.

Now, let's think about if you did send it "Because she needs to know". As Foxy asked, What is the cost to you and the kids??

You seem to be picking at an open wound here and trying to make it bigger. You can't tell me this isn't keeping you Stuck in Turmoil. Well, you could tell me that, but I would not believe you if you did.

As always, it's your choice. Just be prepared to be disappointed & hurt with the venom you will receive.

Not necessarily replying to you Fox but in general to the latest topic here... my opinion (for what it's worth) is that

We CAN offer forgiveness (if we choose) but no where in the rule books does it say we HAVE to keep that person in our life. Any person -- related or not.

There is no reason under the sun for a WS and his OP to be "accepted" by the betrayed family. As for children and their relationship with their wayward parent, IMHO, that wayward parent reaps what he/she sows when the kids reject them.

For the BS to defend the wayward parent (even faking it) is a travesty because that child will go through life thinking anything they do is okay, along as they say I'm sorry or it makes them happy. THAT imho is wrong, wrong, wrong and does not make happy adults.

My brother was 12 years old when my dad was being an idiot.

My mom found my bro under a desk in the house, curled up into a ball and crying.

My mom went and got my dad and pointed to my bro and said, "Look at what you're doing to him. Don't you see what you're doing?"

My dad still didn't get it and was still wayward and still broke contact many months later.

It wasn't until my mom changed, became strong, said, "I'm divorcing your a$$" that he finally "got it".

My DD hugged me goodbye in front of exww once, just a few months after our D, and was saying "I miss you, daddy".

She said it again another time.

All in front of exww. Know who exww blamed? Me. Said that I was making things more difficult.

My DD's feelings and hurt obviously weren't on her mind and she didn't care or acknowledged the pain caused to DD.

Who cares about my pain.

Look at the pain caused to DD and the fact that 2 years after our D, DD is still in therapy for what has happened.

Yes, the kids are so much better off now that SHE is happy. No?

:RollieEyes:

Your WW will be blind to what she's doing and has done. They all are. Acknowledging otherwise means taking a look at what they've done and asking for forgiveness.

Easier to say, "she/he will get over it. I'm happy. Off to bed with OM".

They don't care about their kids pain or they wouldn't have destroyed the family.

Forgot to add that my dad is very sorry now, many years later. And would like to undo what he did. But you can't put Humpty together again.

I don't think the kids will talk to SCQ about their situations. They may not feel free to do so, and may even dread her defending the situation, and telling them that "it's just the way it is". I know I never talked to my mom for that very reason. I knew she wasn't going to unmarry my first step father (not an affair marriage), and I didn't think my thoughts carried any weight with her. I was 8 years old when she remarried.

They talk to you, Guy, because they trust that you will HEAR them. They have a safe haven with you. They may actually feel pressure from you to confront SCQ. I would just let them speak, comfort them as best you can, ENCOURAGE them to speak their minds to BOTH parents, and let it go.

I wouldn't send what you wrote if you are looking for some reaction. Nothing is going to change, not anytime soon.

SDguy:

Someone around here once said that folks in a divorce sitch needed to write a letter to thier children.

You can write several if you like.

That letter would describe HOW you feel about certain things at certain points in your life so that later, you can give those letters to the children to explain to them where you were and what you were thinking and what you were trying to do to help your children.

You can send the email. So what. She will just respond with fog speak. And if not, then it won't be that satisfying anyway.

The email was your vent. You wrote down how you felt. You acknowledge the pain of the children and realize that really, there is nothing you can do about it. Until SCQ decides to change course.

Keep being thier safe haven. They can't talk to thier own mother about thier fears. That's scary, but that's wayward.

One day, when your children are older, you can give them the letter (s) and talk about your efforts to "defuse the bomb your WW built"

LG

I wonder sometimes whether the children tell the parent they feel safe with what they are actually feeling in hopes that the parent will take it to the other.

They aren't brave or strong enough to face the other parent on their own. Are they hoping the trusted parent will do it on their behalf?

I don't know the answer....just a thought.


Fox

I did take issues that DS discussed with me to the Zombie. Didn't seem to change Z's course of action. Also, tried to convince him that introducing DS to any newcomers until they were 'serious' would be detrimental to DS, but the Z did it anyway. We both verbally AGREED we would not do this, but that doesn't mean much with a wayward.

Like I said, you can try to subtly pass on to SCQ that the kids discuss their living situation with SCQ in a negative light and express fear of telling her. She will, most likely, say that you are putting thoughts into their heads. Could very well be a waste of time, and further her notion that you are POISONING the children against her.

I don't know the answer.

The only thing I do know is that I am a safe haven for DS to express his anger, frustration, happiness, sadness, etc. The good, the bad and the ugly. There are times when DS says things to me about ME that are not so lovey dovey nice. He told me, just the other day, that I was 'boring'; that I didn't 'play' with him like 'daddy' did.

I simply told him that I'm different than daddy, and enjoy different activities with DS, and that there will be times when I cannot 'play' with him, because I am taking care of running our home, cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. I told him that I heard him, and that I would try to fit in more fun time, but to NEVER expect me to be like anyone else.

Anyway, prolly TMI, but I thought I would put that interaction out there.

What a WONDERFUL LESSON for HIM to learn at such a YOUNG AGE!! I wish my mother had told me that so that I could have learned not to TRY to be like everybody else!!

AWESOME!!

I actually could tell, in the moment, as we were waiting for the bus together, that he GOT what I was telling him. I have had to reinforce this same issue with him over and over again.

For instance, in aftercare yesterday, most of the boys were roughhousing and playing scateboard on these small planks that looked like something a mechanic would use to shimmy under a car. DS said "I'm no good at that" and "those boys are BETTER than me". I told him that those boys are DIFFERENT than him, not BETTER, and different from one another. He will not be able to do everything that everybody else does to the same ability, just as he will be talented in some areas that others don't accel in. It's the differences that make us so special and interesting, not what's alike.

I told him that it's also totally natural to try and follow and be like others, because we feel more comfortable that way, "fitting in". I told him that he was right to TRY to do what the other boys were, and to keep trying, and doing his best, as long as it is not dangerous (which it wasn't).

I try to instill in him the principle of trying your hardest, your best, AND finding those things that you excel at and accepting less than perfection in other things.

YOU ARE SUCH A GREAT MOTHER, SL!!

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE reading about your interactions with your son.

Please continue to share.

It is soooo HEARTWARMING and REFRESHING!!

Foxy,


This is absoluely True. I have it with Ladybug all of the time. Although I encourage her all of the time to share with him, she won't. She just says, "He'll just get mad." or "He'll send me to my room" or "He'll ground me"

Now, whether or not he does/did/will do those actual things, I don't know. I do know that the message is that she can't share with him.

SL - this is so right on! Same for me.

SD,
Gosh, I go away for a couple of days and you stir the pot.

Just a to you. And two words: Let Go.

I see you becoming so bitter, and maybe that is how the BS eventually looses the will to R when the WS finally does come around.

Sometimes I think that maybe they just don't love us anymore and they just don't want to be M to us. Period. Is it fog babble? I don't know. Maybe she won't want to come back when the A ends either. Just thinking........

It's a shame that the kids have to suffer.

The one thing I wish I could do is bottle up a bit of innocence for my son. There is a loss in that realm that cannot ever be reclaimed, EVER. Divorce is ugly. It shows kids early on that they are inconsequential to the grown up world. How sad.

As for my love for my husband, it is all but gone. The man he is today is not someone I want to know.

I'm with you, Chai. At a certain point, I believe I have to stop BLAMING fog or waywardness, and recognize this as part of his character, and also what he does when the love is gone. He moves on. I often wonder if he will, out of sheer luck, land another good woman like me and blow it all again when the romance wanes (because he didn't learn the tools to keep the flames going). I dunno; it always felt like FEAR was the Zombie's bedfellow. Fear of failing in our M, FEAR OF SUCCEEDING, and losing out on that fix he had grown to love.

I honestly think less and less about the Z as a person that I know, and more and more like he's just some dude I have to do business with.

I sent it. I edited it a bit and sent it.

I know this sounds conspicuous, but I didn't send it because I want to hurt her back for anything that's happened over the past couple of weeks. Like I said before, I was resolved to let that stuff go.

The kids want me to tell her. They have wanted it for a long time, I think, but I have held back (to spare myself her response, or to spare her the reality, or because I was trying to be dark, or because I was hoping someone else would tell her) This time, I asked them, and when they said yes, I told them I would. I asked them again on the way home today whether they wanted me to tell her "the stuff we talked about yesterday" and they both said yes. I had to tell her. They deserve to get their opinions expressed before the divorce is final.

No, of course I don't expect this to change anything. I fully expect her to blame me and lash out and try to hurt me. I just don't care. I'm not so concerned about protecting myself from her. All she can do is push me closer to Done. Anybody got a problem with that? Didn't think so.

This email from my SIL, who reads here but hasn't seemed to break the posting barrier, kind of sums it up.

I think they needed me to say these things for them. That's why I did it. This was a factual accounting of what the kids said yesterday (or previously). I could have done way more damage with a real vent

LG, I love love love the idea of writing letters to the kids that they can have when they are adults. I already started mentally composing them. I need to be careful where I write them so that I don't break down in tears. Thanks for the suggestion!

Bugs, I can tell from your post that your reluctance was out of concern for my lingering hope and the damage that backlash can do, and I love you for that. Tomorrow I'm off to Colorado again to spend the weekends with my friends there. I can't think of a safer place to weather whatever the SCQ will spew at me. God, I can't wait to get there. This time without the kids, so that I can relax even more. Chrisner is at the Mall of Modern Civilization right about now, or I would look him up again.

SL, I too try to make it safe for my kids to talk. And to feel their emotions. That it's okay for them to cry. It's okay for them to be angry. That sometimes they will be angry at me, and that's okay too.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. POM, CW, Foxy, CL, PM, and even Mimi made an appearance on my thread.

Talked to my lawyer today. Our corrections to the draft MSA will go to the SCQ's lawyer next week. Another month or so. It will be a race with our sixteenth wedding anniversary (Sept 26).

SD.. no real advice here, just want to let you know that I'm keeping up with things.. going through many of the same feelings/things that you seem to be going through now.

I think you're doing the right things.. doing what is right for your kids, and being a good dad.

Just wanted to lend my support and let you know that I'm behind you 100%.. hoping that SOME good comes out of all of this.