WOW!! CHRIST'S WORDS....

Hi Cherishing,

I have been thinking about you and your situation and it sounds like you have set yourself up for a really miserable existence.

I totally understand your beliefs but I don't think God wants you to be miserable.

You have a real parent/child relationship going with your H there, it seems to me.

I thought it was okay for people to have recreational activity as long as there were none of the opposite sex around for temptation?

It seems to me that you are boxing your H in and eventually it will blow up on you, IMO.

I see you saying, "yes, but...yes, but...he has gotten better," etc. Then you go on to describe what's going on and I just sigh.

You deserve so much better, Cherishing!! SO much better!

Best of luck,

Charlotte

mimi_here,

I'll continue to post on this thread. It helps me to clarify what I am doing. Thanks for the compliment!



Dancing_Machine,

It isn't easy. There is the definite view on my husband's part that I am boxing him in.

Several years ago, the individual therapist I was seeing asked me to ask him this question: "Do you want to be married and seek happiness in and through the marriage, or do you want to be married and seek happiness outside the marriage?" His response was, "Why can't we do both?"

Sounds reasonable.

It doesn't work. Our marriage has shown that, and I have seen the same problem in other marriages. If you don't have to find activities which appeal to both you and your spouse, then you have a much wider choice of activities. That's why you need to make the deliberate decision that being with your spouse is more important than choice of activity.

Where did my supporting my husband in outside activities get me? He was resentful of any objection I made to anything. Here I was, a stay at home mother of four young chidren, and he was off in all sorts of activities. He was in a weekly volleyball league and wanted to join a second one. Oh, was he furious when I objected! He was in the church choir, and I went with him and the children to church one hour early and sat in the nursery while he was in choir practice so that we could be together for the three miles to and from church -- that's how desperate I was to spend time with him!

He does feel boxed in. He came up with a plan in the last week that we, as a family, would visit all 64 state parks in Minnesota. This afternoon, while the children were at a movie with a cousin, we went shopping for a camp stove.

I cam to think of his "why can't we do both" attitude as "the chit game." He would spend time with me or the family as a way to earn "chits" towards what he really wanted to do. What I have done is say I will separate if he makes choices which I do not think of as positive for me. Does that mean he is never in activities away from me or the kids? No, it doesn't, but it does mean that I see as positive everything that he does -- a golf fundraiser for our church, Boy Scout campouts with our son, a visit to his mother with our daughter...

Harley focuses on building a romantic relationship by meeting emotional needs. I have come to believe that extraordinaory care is more about extreme consideration -- the POJA. We won't have an intimate marriage unless the POJA is in place.

His classic line, of course, was "I do not enthusiastically agree to the POJA." That's very understandable because the POJA seems just plain bizarre to many people who have carved out lives separate from their husbands. My husband can think and do as he pleases. If he violates the POJA, however, we're separating.

I am hoping that he isn't playing "the chit game" with his desire to have monthly camping trips with the family. I am hoping he's decided to seek happiness in and through his family.

Cherishing

You have made this statement for the past two years.

I do not think that much has changed with you.



Well, people can think that I am wrong with my comments.

I happen to think that you are using these concepts as a way of CONTROLLING your husband. You are abusing them to suit your own agenda. OF course he is going to do something with the family in an effort to be able to do something for himself. What is wrong with doing BOTH? If the family isn't neglected why can't he go for a run? You go camping one weekend as a family, he plans golf one weekend. What is so terribly wrong with that? Must he get all his exercise and sports cleared through you?



Is he allowed a sense of self with you?

I think you are slowly becoming somewhat.....shoot, the word escapes me.....about the concepts here. Shoot, I have got to think of the word...right on the tip of my tongue...well, my fingers.

committed

The word is Irrational...whew...

You are slowly becoming unreasonable too about them.

Competetive? I thought it was complimentary.

Sorry.

OK, committedandlovingit. You refreshed my memory. It's been 3 years in July since I put my foot down about the POJA. We had been going to a marriage counselor who thought "The POJA is la la land." I didn't want to go back to him, but my husband decided to go back to him for individual counseling. I said I didn't want him to go, and he said tough. My response was something like "I cannot convince you. I cannot control you. I cannot coerce you. Move out."

In our marriage, what happened with the "why can't we do both" is that more and more and more was away from the family. It stank. I'm not willing to go back to that.

It does seem irrational that there should be NO outside activities without the enthusiastic support of your wife. It seems irrational to me. It most emphatically didn't work for him to have "me" activities and "we" activities. I wish I could tell you just how much I cringe today recalling his blank eyes when he was with me. He had no interest whatsoever in anything I said or did. One example: I said something to him about Lynn, he said "Who's Lynn?", and I said "She's been my boss for the last two years." I was completely and totally tuned out. In fact, he said something like "I just tune out your chirping."

Is my eliminating the possibiity of his seeking happiness outside his family going to result in his seeking happiness in and through his family, or will it make him resentful and bitter as he spends his life sitting on a couch?

We've endured three years of sitting around. I'm happy he's willing to look at family camping trips. It's a start. Is it a "chit" so he can go back to golf and volleyball and running and choir? Possibly. Probably.

If he goes back, I'm separating. I couldn't stand the neglect. It was worse than the abuse.

What this thread has made me realize is that there is a lot I could be doing that would meet with his enthusiastic support but I'm not doing it -- and why? -- Well, frankly, the love bank is deep in negative numbers and I'd rather think about my heroic efforts to fix our marriage than clean up the kitchen after dinner.

I think I need to focus more on what I can do to create a positive environment for him while remaining receptive to him but intolerant of violations of the POJA.

In the end, it doesn't matter if he doesn't like following the POJA. It matters if he's willing to follow it and create a marriage of compatibility. His idea of weekend camping trips thrilled me, but I need to accept it probably is an attempt by him to earn a "chit" towards weekend fishing trips -- his eyes lit up when the father of one of our son's friends invited him.

Several years ago, Tom said to me: "I want to golf, I want to run, I want to play volleyball, and you won't let me." I remember thinking: "Where am I on your priority list?" I also thought, "Where are the kids?"

As my History & Politics professor said, "You have to choose." I've chosen. I've chosen to pin everything on following the POJA, which means I've decided separation is better than waving goodbye as your husband is off golfing and running and fishing and playing volleyball and singing in the choir and on and on and on and on and on... After three years of sitting around, no golf (except once through the church), no running, no fishing (except a couple of times with the family), no volleyball, no singing in the choir -- he's proposed a way for the family to have fun. We'll see where this gets us.

Cherishing

After a pleasant day, he made a nasty comment: "I have never seen anyone with so little ability to concentrate." I told him later that I was upset and wanted respect. He said I have to earn it.

This is a pattern of "the chit game": basically, we do what you want (camping trips with the family) and he's miserable because of what I are (unable to concentrate) so he deserves to do this (independent behavior).

He didn't get to the part where he calls in a chit, so maybe that's not what he was doing. He did apologize this morning.

I'm less hopeful. I'll see how this plays out.

Cherishing

There are people that have GREAT marriages that would think the POJA is hogwash. It's not for...and shouldn't be for...everyone.


Not one thing wrong with any of these things...so long as they are done in moderation. People still need to be able to do things they enjoy.



I think you are being too rigid.

I have found with most things in life that it is better to get a persons buy in through positive reinforcement than by being their warden. To me it appears as though you have taken on a very strange role here.

C&L and I do not agree frequently...on this though, I agree 100%.

I don't want to be his warden. He's clearly indicating a desire to do things that I would view as negative. It does seem moderate to say -- go ahead and run. Our history suggests that it becomes more and more and more...

Cherishing

I would NEVER POJA with someone that used it as a weapon. YOu are clearly doing just that. Wow...a husband needs his wifes permsiion to go running. Hey, let me ask you...does he get to wipe his butt without asking first??? I know that is sarcastic, but really...the way you sound on this matter it does not seem too out there.

medc,

Well, the advantage of this forum is that you get to get your spouse's perspective through others. During the affair, he used to say, "Do you mind if I go to the bathroom?" It grated on me. Honestly, he'd ask about going to the bathroom but not about having an affair! He trained for a marathon, he was in choir two nights a week, he played volleyball one night a week, during the summer he golfed, we spent many, many weekends visiting his family... I had walking pneumonia the year we went to visit his relatives 8 weekends in three months.

He had a lot of rope, and he hung himself. My therapist told me she thought I should just give him a lot of rope again and see what he does. She was of the opinion he'd hang himself again because he simply showed no interest in meeting my needs -- "He'll do the minimum to appease you."

Now he's proposed something that would have a lot of appeal to me -- weekend family camping trips. Why? Is this a chit towards what he really wants to do, which will be proposed next? Am I being paranoid?

I don't know. I just know I am done with supporting him in doing what he thinks is positive for him that I think is negative for me. I have no tolerance left.

Dr. Harley has been proposing separation for a few years now. I really have no hope that there would be any change of heart on the part of either of us due to a separation. He's willing to follow the POJA for the moment. He made a step towards what looked like finding win-win recreational companionship. I guess I'll wait and see.

It's not a weapon. It's knowing my limits. I'd rather be divorced than live in the marriage that we had during and prior to the affair, a marriage in which "if you really loved me, you'd want me to be happy" meant "I get to do what I want and you should be happy for me." I tried to be happy about his lunches with OW, although I expressed concern about "adultery of the heart." He said he could handle it.

What I have done is lump OW with all the other activities and label it as neglect.

Cherishing

Look, I do not know your marriage...but I do know that IF you were my wife and came across as you are on this thread, I would want out of the house frequently too. And that is coming from a guy that spends a lot of time with those important to him. It sounds like he is running away from a smothering woman.

As for giving him rope...you and your therapist need to learn that it is NOT yours to give...YOUR husband OWNS his own rope...to me it sounds like you are trying to be his mommy instead of his wife.

Obviously his affair was a big mistake and there is nothing that excuses that. As for the rest of his activities...they seem a bit more in line with my thinking at this point.

The therapist also told me to drop my end of the rope, and that is what I have tried to do.

He does own the rope. I recognize that.

Cherishing

Whatever happens Cherishing...take care of yourself and continue to grow...do not let his infidelity rob you of all the goodness this life has to offer.

As much as possible...relax.

There is a lot of joy in life. In my high school yearbook, I quoted a poem of Dryden:

He who brings to himself to joy
Does the winged life destroy
He who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise.

Haven't thought of that in years --
I won't be his warden. What I'll do is separate --

Cherishing

Nope...you have been saying this for three years now.

Last time you referred to it as "emotional divorce". You would continue to live in the same house but not interact. That is what is most adequately referred to as the "cold shoulder". Which in itself, is a form of abuse.

He will suggest something and you will look for the thing that is going to be the diappointment or the reason it isn't going to fit YOUR standard of POJA. You look for these things. You accept no attempts from him. You are convinced of underlying ulterior motives from him.

When he suggests a weekend family trip for the family, why doesn't that make you happy? Why must you see some diabolical scheme? Even if he does this an attempt to garner something for himself, it isn't a evil plot you know. It is the PERFECT way to reach a POJA. A tit for tat kinda thing. YOUR way is NOT a POJA. Your comments that you cannot do ANYTHING that brings you happiness through anything other than your Wife and kids is not the basis of POJA. It might be the kind you want, but it isn't correct.

He is attempting and you are shooting those attempts down.

If you think that neglect is worse than abuse, you might need to make you a trip to a women's shelter. Hopefully, you won't see it as ok if your kids are abused as opposed to being "neglected". They are both reasons to get divorced in my book.

Again, STOP with all the "I'm gonna do"s because it is clear that it is gonna take alot more to get you to do anything other than complain about HIS wrong way to POJA...when it is evident that YOUR idea of POJA is "my way or no way".

jmho

committed

commitedandlovingit,

I am not opposed to his doing things away from the kids and me, only to his doing things which I don't find positive for me. If he wants to do them, that means they are positive for him. What needs to be worked on is making them positive for both. That is my understanding of the POJA.

I appreciate your responding to me. There is some blind spot that I have.

It was thrilling to me that he would suggest family camping trips. After he made a nasty comment last night, I started to wonder if he wasn't back to the chit game. What I need to do here is keep myself from speculating about his motives.

As for abuse vs. neglect, I think I'm crossing the $100,000 mark in terms of medical care when I have my next surgery -- number eight -- directly attributable to injuries. He may have stopped the abuse, but the medical care continues. The neglect was worse.

Cherishing

My husband is treating me well. We are learning to find things we both enjoy doing. In July, we spent a week at the Boy Scout Camp. My husband was with our son's troop, and I was at "Family Camp" with the girls. While we spent a lot of time apart, we got together almost every day, and the kids just loved the week. We already signed up to go back next year.

We got home yesterday afternoon from several days at a state park right near Ely, which is town right next to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area in Northern Minnesota. This was our fourth year there. Again, everyone enjoyed the time.

My husband and the kids love to fish, and I don't enjoy it at all. They went fishing, and I stayed with the dog. Other than that, we were together enjoying the outdoors and the state parks.

We don't have a lot in common. We just don't. He now travels every week for his job. That limits our time together. What we are doing is trying to find the intersection of what is positive for him and for me.

Cherished

Cherished,
I read this thread, and I know it's been a long struggle for you but I commend you for putting forth effort and trying to share and enjoy experiences together. It seems that early in your marriage so much damage was done, it's hard for you to step back and take a fresh look at your husband for who he is NOW. I would encourage you to use some of your religious zealousy to pray for love for him, love that only God can give you for him, and to pray for a miracle not only in his heart, but in yours as well...pray God start within you. I am not judging you, in fact, many have encouraged you to leave him and think of yourself, I admire you for adhering to your beliefs...I just think a fresh perspective interjected in this marriage might be of help. In the course of a marriage, sometimes people seem unlovable...sometimes it seems a miracle that any marriages make it!
Just what is it, by the way, that has kept you from joining your husband in his love for running? I know he may be overboard with his activities, but would it hurt you to join him at least some of the time? I know there are more ways to abandon someone than just infidelity, some do it with their "much busyness", as a kind of avoidance...much like stonewalling has done it for you. Neither one is what you could say is fitting and keeping with POJA. POJA isn't just what's agreeable for you or for your husband...it's both considering each other and the marriage.
Good luck!