I asked the what's up with all the affection/SF question.

I would have thought a simple answer would follow but here is the basic answer.

Earlier this year she was complaining to her friends about frequency of sex. I'm pretty sure two of these friends know about PA. Anyway through the conversation she realized that I had stopped asking a long time ago because she said no all the time. I thought she was going to admit PA but she didn't. Anyway the friends told her to start asking me for sex because I'm a catch and they would love to have sex with me.
I'm not sure I like those friends because that comment seems inappropriate and I am guessing that they probably discussed intimate details about me.

I mostly just listened because I don't want to say anything yet and I wanted to think about what I should say. I think I didn't look particularly impressed with the reason because at the end she said "I don't want to lose you".

Can anyone of the wayward people help me to understand what this means? And maybe what I should do next.

I'm thinking maybe I should just see how things go for another couple of months and see how I feel about things over time.

Bro - Let me be the first to tell you that you are not married if you already have an end in sight. You are simply taking advantage of the one that you "used" to love.

Something inside of me tells me that you do still love her - Something tells me that you very much enjoy the fact that she is coming back around. Is it because you want to hurt her the way she did you? Is it because this will be your chance to get her back?

I hope that somewhere in this process you will stop telling yourself that it is done in 6 years and start telling yourself that you are at the start of a marriage that is going to get better and better.

MoDaisy,

I don't hate her. It has been almost 9 years of not good for me and just a few months of improving. If she wants to fix things then time is on her side if she is consistent. Right now I am still pretty wary.

6years,

She said "I don't want to lose you". It seems to me you might want to ask her why she has changed her mind. She stated she didn't want to be married to you, she has ignored you for 10 years. She had an affair, it might be interesting to find out why she doesn't want to lose you, when she basically gave you up for so many years.

Ask her this. I think she knows you have withdrawn. I think she knows you won't ask for SF with her. I think she knows you are out of this marriage unless something changes and that something is???? HONESTY.

I do think your marriage can be saved. I do think you can forgive her but you will never forget. I do think your marriage can be something you both enjoy. However I do think that any of these things can happen only if she is HONEST with you. You already know good sex is not the way to your heart although it is satisfying and gratifying.

I would not feel bad about accepting what she offers, because you have been accepting what she offered all of these years. Nothing has really changed.

It is truly sad that this has happened. I do understand your approach to this. But, I think you have little to lose by telling her you would like to understand why she feels she may lose you.

God Bless,

JL

JustLearning,

I'm going to think of a way of asking her why she has changed her mind. I want to do it in a casual way so I get a better answer. I think I got a pretty good answer last night because I just casually asked right after SF.

I noticed you have been on here a while. Is it bad that she has discussed details of my anatomy with her friends? I feel embarrassed about it, even though I realize the comments were probably positive.

6left,

I don't have a thing to say about her discussing your anatomy with her friends. Women do this alot I hear. As a guy I would not do this with my W. But, whether it is bad or not, I doubt she finds in embarrassing if she has been discussing her affair with them. There is little sacred in that case.

I do think she is realizing a few things. It would be interesting to know what they might be. But, I do think you simply stating "I heard you say you don't want to lose me. I am wondering why you feel this way. More specifically why you would want to keep me around."

I would be blunt. 6Left, you cannot expect her to be honest if you won't be honest. It is a two way street. IF she asks what your feelings are right now, I would answer "to be gone when the kids leave home." Simple, honest, and with no accusations. You want honesty, you need to be honest.

You must remember if she wanted a divorce she would have filed a long time ago. YOu only want this marriage for 6 more years. I would say she is more committed than you are right now. I don't know why? Do you?

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I do think I know why she wants me around. I have always been good at money and sex but not so good at many of the other important areas. During the A when I had already made my plan I just gradually got better at all the other stuff in order to make the home life as good as I could. I'm very analytical so I guess I'm hitting all the needs pretty consistently for a long time now.

Also no SF was pretty frustrating so I developed a habit of 90 mins every morning in the gym. So I'm pretty well built now. I wasn't bad before but a working dad with 5 little kids can get a little flabby.

I kind of like your wording. I think I will also ask her not to talk to others with details about my body, etc.. because it makes me embarrassed. In the past I would have just let it slide, but I want her to know that I will feel uncomfortable with some of her friends now.

6years,

I must head out in a few moments. I think you need to be honest, "radically" honest as Dr. Harley states. I also think you need to hear what she thinks of the marriage for the last 10 years, since she has stated that she felt marrying you was a mistake since she did not love you when you two last discussed the marriage.

It is time to lay a few cards on the table 6years. I know you like the "make up sex" who wouldn't. I know you can go the distance for the next 6 years. I also know that no matter when it happens it will hurt the kids. I also know that they are aware of the distance between you, that they have not heard their Dad tell their Mom, "I love you." Don't you think that is teaching your kids something about marriage and human relationships? I do, and I think it is not a good lesson.

I also empathize with your decision and how you are going about things, because I could see me doing the same thing in your situation. Don't get mad, get even. I also have a large antipathy toward forcing anyone to like me or be around me. If they don't want to be, I have no problem, I let them go.

So you are talking to someone who would probably have followed your path in your situation. BUT, that does not mean that either of us would be right. However, for anything to change HONESTY must be part of the marriage. Your W needs to know the situation she is in, and what it will take to change it. It starts with honesty about her affair, how she feels about you now, and what her plans for the future of the marriage really are. By the same token you need to be honest as well.

Just thoughts I hope they help.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your help,

I will think about the radical honesty thing. That is probably the only emotional need where I am lacking right now.I read down the whole list just to check. I'm just going slow so I have time to think about everything.

Presumably, she does not know your 6 year plan. is. So you are asking questions of her now, and she is answering you to the best of her ability. But she doesn’t realize that you are likely to make assessments of her, that have life changing implications, based on what she says.

My own experience:
My WxH had been moody and sullen for a couple of months. I had not idea what was going on. I now realize that he was trying to decide if he should go or stay. In order to help him make his decisions, he asked me questions that seemed totally random at the time. One in particular: he asked:”Why did you marry me?”. I chuckled and said “because no one else would have me”. The joke was on me – I was saying that I was not a great catch, and no one else would have me. In his moody brain he interpreted that to mean that I only married him because I had no other offers. He later said that this particular random question was the final straw for him, that was the day he decided to leave.

Later, when he told me what the basis was for his questions, I realized that my answers were generally given in a light hearted, teasing manner. Probably a little too flippant. But I had no idea my H was serious at the time. After all, after 18 years of M, why would your spouse suddenly ask “why did you marry me”. And his questions were always asked in a casual, no big deal sort of manner. I realize now that he probably went back to OW and cried on her shoulder about how cold hearted I was to him.

Later, after he had been gone for awhile, we discussed this same question and he told me that my answer hurt him deeply. And I told him: “WH – I was making fun of MYSELF! How could that hurt you very deeply? I was saying that you were the only man who would have me. And for me, I was very lucky to have found you”

He looked shocked at that point. I think he started to realize that my answer to him was not a hurtful comment, meant to destroy him. It was me, and my lack of self esteem, knocking myself down. That had been the final straw conversation for him – the reason he moved out, and permanently damaged his relationship with his boys.

You see, communication is a funny thing. One word spoken, can be interpreted totally different by two different people.

I know your situation is very different from mine. And we all agree your W has made some huge mistakes, and she has some explaining to do. But I wish you would get it all out in the open, so that everyone is on the same page.

I would like to ask you this: You say that you are just ready (anxious) for the M to be over. Why? What do you think your life will look like after a D?

womanoffaith5,

I'm working on being open on my side. The things she has said to me during the A and the first couple of years after were not said in jest. They were said to hurt me and it worked. I know, intellectually, that she loved me when we dated and got married. I also know she can do and say things that I never would have expected.

I think for the first time in years, it has occurred to her that I could leave. I did tell her during the affair that I was staying to raise my children. I didn't say that I was gone after that and I doubt she took anything I said as important during the A.

I think that the way JL put it might be good although somewhat untrue because it leaves out the planning part. If she asks what I'm thinking I'm going to say "If the kids were grown today, I would leave." or something like that.

Unfortunately, I kept a notebook during the affair and I am fairly good at detective work. So I have notes about what was said, and details of when they met, etc.

6YL:

I was struck by this comment:


The Harleys recommend tht you spend 15 hours a week Unintereruptted Companionship (UC) time with your spouse.

Betcha if you didn't go to the gym three days a week you would have alot more time with your W. That would be six more hours you could spend with her.

Remember. Your still here. She recognizes that as well.

The PERSON you used to be, ain't around.

You worked on yourself and fixed the parts of your M that you thought were broken, by your own admission.

Your W just watched you grow. She didn't want to accept your changes either.

IT took her 8 years to recognize them.

Sure, her discussion with her GF's about the size of your anatomy may have helped snap her out. So What.

It DID snap her out. She finally looked at you through the eyes of what others may think about you as a H. And realized that you weren't all that bad. Considering.

And your still here.

WOF5 pointed out a very valid point. A simple question, without a proper context for the answer, could make all the difference in the world. JL will help you formulate responses and questions so that you CAN find out about your W. But be careful that the question you are asking is being answered with the same weight.

How many conversations I had with my BS like that....

LG

WOF5,

Oh I forgot to answer your question. If I were D then I would not have to spend so much of my life and effort on someone who has hurt me so much, and never made a single effort to fix it.

LG,

I agree that I have changed. Also I do spend alot of time with wife since I don't have to work much to produce good income these days because of the structure of my partnership. I am sure one can always make improvements, and it does make life easier if she is happy at home.

The anatomy discussions would not be a deal breaker and I was mostly wondering if other men thought it was inappropriate and embarrassing. And if I should ask her not to do it.

You have six years to go.

I have to ask:

What would it mean to you if, in the next two years, you could once again be in love with the mother of your children, have the marriage that you wished you would have had, and you were sure that you and your wife were on the road toward a great future together, "in love", and that the affair and other issues were worked out?

Would that scenario be a good thing for you?


SB

Schoolbus,

Of course that would be great. But, I'm not at a place where I can make any promises. I was deeply hurt, and now I'm disconnected entirely. I remember the hurt and I'm not sure I'm willing to sign up for it again. I've never lied to her and opening this conversation may put my kids in a broken home. If it comes to that I will lie and pretend to forgive and pretend to be committed until they are grown.

I won't be proud of myself but I guess it is worth it given a small chance of recovery.

I disagree with your statement that you have "never lied to her".

Your failure to disclose to her that you plan to divorce her in six years is a lie of omission.

That is lying to her, every single day.


Here is your 2X4:

You see this as your wife's problem, and solely hers. You prop yourself up as the moral person in this marriage, because you have not cheated. But you hold some responsibility to the marriage and to the state of the marriage YOU CHOOSE TO CONTINUE.

You see - you CHOOSE TO STAY IN THE MARRIAGE. Because you make this choice, you have a responsibility to make this marriage work, and that means you have responsibilities to your spouse, including HONESTY.

That honesty would include your plans to divorce her.

See, it is not "okay" for you to hide your plans, any more than it is "okay" for her to hide her affair.


Because you choose to remain married, you must also choose to work on that marriage and make it right - because regardless of what you believe, your children KNOW exactly what you feel toward their mother. You cannot help but ooze that disdain.

And your posts ooze it, too.


I see also in your posts a sense that you feel somewhat entitled to use your wife for whatever she can give you. Your taker is in full swing.

Because she has had an affair does not make you entitled to use her.

Because it took her "too long" to make her way back into the marriage does not make you entitled, either.



It may very well be that your attitude toward your wife, and the failure of the both of you to address the affair in the first place

had more to do with the state of your marriage at this point in time


than anything your wife is doing or has done over the past few years.


See, you two did NOT do the recovery right back then.

You failed to confront it.
And you have CHOSEN to continue your same attitude and approach.


And you expect something to .....

change????


Why?


To do nothing - you will keep getting the same result you have gotten for the last 10 years - and you are angry and resentful!!!

So you have your "choices":

1. You can go ahead on, be the martyr for the next 6 years, and expect some support for that, and then divorce her and blindside her, and continue to lie to her and never try to fix this marriage. But you won't get support for that from me!

2. You can continue on in the same way you have for 10 years, which is to do nothing, say nothing, and get more resentful.

3. You can read this website, follow the plans, order and read the books, GET YOUR WIFE ON BOARD, and call the Harleys. You can choose to realize that half of the problems you have had in this marriage since the affair (and before the affair) belong to YOU. The affair was your wife's choice, but the dealing with it, the failure to deal with it, and the state of the marriage today is 50% YOU. And you can work to make it better, and you can CHOOSE to make the marriage what you want it to be - and you can CHOOSE to be in love with your wife again, and learn about how that CAN HAPPEN.


If it were me, I would look closely at option 3. Because a six year long sentence in marriage he// is NOT the choice I would make.


You know, I don't hand out 2x4's often. Only to people who need them, and have a very good chance to fix what they THINK is broken - and YOU have that chance.

SB

Schoolbus,

I guess my posts might read as disdain but I don't feel that way. I just don't want to be married anymore. I agree that before the A I was 50% of the problem but think of doing a 9 year Plan A. I did that getting nothing and usually getting negative. I did not even know how much I was counting down the days until the turn around.

Even then SF is not everything, if we had no children I would leave right now. I'm here because I am not filled with disdain or hatred. I feel guilt that I have my plan and I am finally getting one of my needs met.

I'm thinking my best course is to just tell her that I'm gone when the kids are grown and that I would like her to stay and be their mother until then. I will continue to be nice, and I won't cheat, and we can have SF if she wants.

Maybe I can't even be on this site because I do not want to stay married. I hurt, I feel the loss, but I can't fix it. I'm quite sure that even a full admission and begging for forgiveness would not work at this point.

6years,

I have been on this site a long time. Better yet I have lived a long time. You came to this site for a reason and I don't think you want to admit it.

You came here because you are finally after all of these years having your needs met, and you do want you remain married, but you fear you will be married as you have been. You don't know what to do now that you are ready and have a plan to leave. Most of you probably wants out. I sure would, in fact I would have been out. But, you stayed and because you stayed there is a possibility that your marriage can be something you would want, and that is very disconcerting.

I do think you need to be open and honest with her. She may agree with you and sit out the next 6 years for your children. She may agree with you and leave NOW. OR she may agree with you, but may have decided on her own YOU are worth fighting for.

You won't know until you are honest, and even then I would guess it will take months or even a year before either of you will know for sure what the right move is. But, this move should be made with honesty. You don't OWE her a thing in my book, but a decent man would be honest and I think you are a decent man who has had more than enough.

Be honest and request honesty from her. Tell her what you know. Tell her you know about the affair and how poorly she treated you. Tell her you not only remember but have notes of her behavior. And then see what she says and does.

You don't need to feel guilty for leaving, but you WILL feel guilty if you leave and not tell her why and give her the chance she really never gave you.

6years, you came here for a purpose and that was to see if you could possibly save this marriage. I know your plan and as I said before I understand it, but her behavior has changed things it seems. You will know more if you are honest. You will learn more by watching her reaction when she receives the word that you plan to leave.

You don't hate her.
You don't wish her bad things.
You want to be married to someone that loves and respects you.
Further, you will have discharged your duty with regard to rearing your kids, although I will tell you your duty never really ends.

Give her the gift she never gave you...honesty.

God Bless,

JL

If you "don't want to be married anymore" than why are you here, asking for advice and seeking input? You appear to be an intellectual person and no doubt you are analytical so I can't figure out why you are seeking answers when you appear to have it figured out for yourself.

Why would you feel guilty? There most be some other emotion that you are blocking and guilt is just what has surfaced.

Before you start the "honesty" discussion with her, hoe about getting really honest with yourself. IMO (and I do not know that much about you) - you do love her in the depths of your heart but the pain has kept you from seeing that.

You have a GOLDEN chance to capture the marriage that you always wanted so why not give it all that you have? What have you got to lose?

I do not think that you need to tell her anything about your 6 year plan or what you think you will do in 6 years. How many plans of you set in your life that did not work out. But, you do need to deal with these emotions of yours and you should try to have an open discussion with her.

Maybe, you could just tell her that you notice the change, you very much enjoy it, you want to understand and continue with it, but your "heart" is not really receiving it right now due to the damage of the years.