Nowis,

You asked
I know this stuff because I have lived for 7+ decades. I know this stuff because I have literally read hundreds of thousands of posts on this site. I know this stuff because I am 'just learning'. I know this stuff because one of the most important things I learned is how predictable the patterns are in marriages. I surely did not know this before I came here.

The reason that Harley's stuff really works is because each situation is a litle different the basics are not. What people want and need in their lives is pretty standard. How people react in certain situations is pretty standard. If each situation was really different, then there would be no hope of finding an approach that works. There is a lot of hope.

How did the talk with your H go? I hope it went well, but if not learn from it.

You are doing well Nowis. hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Nowisthemoment


What I think I am trying to say is something that I picked up on from Just Learning. I think you have some difficulty receiving love.

Somehow, somewhere, someway you need to feel you are valued and loved. Your husband sounds like he has been faithful in trying to do that. He sounds like he is gentle and mild. This is not potent enough to penetrate your love resistant barrier( does that make sense?). You may be looking for something to bowl you over with a powerful sensation. But is that the nature of love? In scripture we learn that love is patient, love is kind. These are not intense but they are powerful. Has your husband been patient and kind?


Thank you you are very gracious. I so desire this in my life.

I encourage you to pursue your spiritual side. I am hoping by doing this you will realize how important and how valuable and how much your HEAVENLY Father loves you. Once you realize that it is my hope that you can internalize His love.

This situation with your earthly father has caused a wound in you. (I may be wrong but I sense this has had a significant impact on you) I understand how that works as I was wounded by my earthly father too. But that is not the end of the road. What we need to do is establish a stronger relationship, one that fills that hole in our heart, with our Heavenly Father. There is healing there. I understand how hard it can be to feel loved but it is possible for us know how much God loves you. And there is a difference between knowing it in your head and knowing it in your heart.

Your situation with your husband and your A is a symptom of your hurt.

I just want to say I hope you are proud of yourself in how far you have come in such a short period of time. I know I am amazed at how dramatically you have changed. Continue to pursue your husband. He needs constant feedback, and reassurance from you on how you appreciate him.

I encourage you to reread JL's posts to you. This man is blessed with wisdom. Lean on that wisdom to help guide you through the next six months. Your relationship will need a lot of work over the next several years, it is easy to become discouraged, but we must persevere. I have been learning a lot by reading here. I appreciate how JL says he is just learning, I am too.

How are you feeling about yourself now?
Are you beginning to feel a deeper connection with your husband?
Are you seeing a quiet strength in him that you can appreciate?
How are you doing with stinky thinking?
Are you being thankful and verbalizing your thanks?

God Bless you and your family. You are in my prayers.

I'm glad you're here to help JL.

When I and my H were separated he attended a mens group, at a well known church, for separated and divorced men. It did him a lot of good he said. He realized, in one way, that he was extremely lucky that he didn't have a lot of issues that other guys have; anger, emotional unavailability, etc. He realized he loved me and just had to wait for me to 'see the error of my ways' etc etc. Anyway, he thought this church had a couples group. Alas, they do not. So we don't really know what to do with that.

We are not seeking to be part of any church right now either.

So, we talked a little. My H said he is really happy right now with where we are at. Is there anything that I need? I said I think so but I don't want to keep saying things aren't right, sounding like I'm continuously dissatisfied. It's not how I want him to perceive me (too late, he says it has kind of always been like that). I inwardly sigh. A counselor said a while ago to us that it was a fault of mine that I never really told my H what I was truly feeling and what I needed since way back when, otherwise we would have worked this stuff out long ago or divorced. I should have always been honest. I know, I never did....... I would tell myself to just be grateful, try and work at stuff and eventually feel as though I failed.

OKAY, HAVE JUST READ BCBOY POST!!! Wow. Get this - so I went on to tell my H I just feel that I have been making do with our relationship but did not want to anymore. I want a full on romance if that were possible.

BEAR WITH ME WHILE I GO BACK TO GO FORWARD

My H and I were good friends when we were dating. So when it came to getting married the conversation was like this - sitting in his kitchen - H "where's this relationship going?, Me - "I don't know, guess we'll be together forever", H - "Might as well get married then", Me - "Okay, shall we get engaged?", H - "Yeah we'll get engaged next Friday, Me - "Okay then". Buying the ring, wedding, having children, everything else was done in the same tone. It's all been very practical. I wanted more but I was afraid to say. I wanted to feel different but didn't. My thinking was - I was lucky to get him right? Lucky to get someone who was nice - doesn't matter that all the feelings weren't there (they would come right because what did I know anyway). I didn't have the romance and I didn't have the gushy stuff, all the the loving feelings. I was unable to feel them - not because I wasn't being offered them - (growing realization).

Last night I told him that I will have to admit that I want the big feelings in this relationship, I want grand shows of affection from him now. I want the gushy stuff. He said it came as a shock to him a year or so ago when I said the famous "I love you but am not in love with you and never have been.". He always put my disconnectedness down to the fact that I just wasn't into showing affection, not that I didn't have 'feelings' for him. However, he always loved me even though he wasn't getting what he needed. I pretty much controlled the relationship with regards to love and affection, didn't I? Not good, not good at all.

So when I read IT IS BEYOND SPOOKY for me. "You may be looking for something to bowl you over with a powerful sensation" - the grand gestures?

So, I wonder then, do I have to be careful to differentiate between just feelings and true love than runs deeper even though I don't always feel it. It's not good to need or perhaps rely on those loving feelings?

However, I want it now. 23 years later I see it and I want it to feel it. I see that giving love to my H has created love. I, in turn, want that love fest too.

OK so what is this love fest mean? Can you describe it to your husband? I venture to guess with some coaching he will be able to do that for you. The more you tell me about him the more impressed I am with him. I have never met him but I think I like him. He has a depth of character that can be appreciated. You are very fortunate. I think you are beginning to realize that.

I agree you need to feel love. May I be so bold as to suggest something for you and your husband to try? How about you two sitting knee to knee hold hands and pray together for your marriage and for each other? You don't need to go to a church to do this but you can do this every day.



And he still chooses to love you. Wake up and smell the coffee Nowisthemoment. The root of your issue still points to the same thing. Do you fell loved? By your husband? By God?


Well if that isn't a wonderful thing. What could possibly wrong with that. But oh oh Nowisthemoment, this is starting to sound a lot like commitment. Are you ready for that? This could be embarking on uncharted territory. How do you plan on romancing your husband? What do you expect from him? Are you planning on sharing that with him or is that going to be your secret?


Good job on the turn around here. Keep him happy. Reassure him regularly of your love for him and keep up the good work in the SF department. Red alert do not get complacent just because he is happy. You have inner work to do to become joyful in your life. Are you going to IC to deal with the fathers wound?

Why don't you guys go on a honeymoon? Go someplace where noone knows you so you can act crazy and be in love with each other? I've got a notion your husband would do this for you and would fulfill what you want if he knows what you want. Do you know what you want? Are you looking for that giddy feeling when you first fall in love? What is it?

Sounds like you guys are rounding third and heading for home plate. Good job.

By the way what is happening with that stinky thinking?

BCB

Yes, you would like him. Everyone does. They say he's a nice guy(!). I've learned lately myself that real grit and strength lie beneath that nice exterior.

Do I feel loved? No, until recently I didn't feel loved by anyone most of the time. However, I know I am loved by my H and beginning to feel that. He has proved that love to me also. Loved by God? Mmmm? Maybe I never really understood God. It took a lot of faith but no feeling. I remember, distinctly, as a child, feeling like God wasn't there for me no matter how much I prayed and wished. I worked on being a faithful follower for years - in 1990, I began to let God and the idea of him being my father, etc go.

After lots of false starts and tries, I have honestly given up. Last time I tried was in 2002. I don't know but I have to be present and connected. Let me think about this.

I've been thinking we perhaps ought to start dating again but differently this time around. A honeymoon would be a dream. Will make it a goal.

As for stinky thinking - it's still there though. Waiting in the wings to offer familiar false comfort. It's a 'friend' I'm learning to live without even though I think she appears reasonable.

I am no expert. I am just an average guy trying to muddle my way through like everyone else. IMHO I think this is the root of an issue that is inhibiting you in many areas of your life. This is something I would encourage you to pursue. This may require a professional counsellor or pastor to work with you through this.

Just know you are valued and loved. Good luck Nowisthemoment you have been a real encouragement.

God Bless you and your family.

Nowis,

Ok, you have me confused. You have a husband that loves you, even through your affair. You have worked on giving love, but somehow you have failed to understand my story about my aunts. Part of great love is being able to receive love. You don't seem to pick that up. You say you "don't feel" love, and that you need grand gestures.

But, you also say you could not do that for your H, am I reading this correctly. Dear lord girl, you are sure confusing something that is very simple. Not easy mind you, but simple.

To truly in love and feel love you must do two things: give love and receive love. It really is that simple. Now, as Harley points out, there is a detail that must be addressed. How does your H want to be loved? How do you want to be loved? You say you want grand gestures, what kind are they? You cannot expect your H to know. He is NOT into seducing women. he is not trained to troll bars and pick up women. He does not have a line of patter, that is designed to get women into his bed. He is a man that is comfortable loving one woman...YOU.

So if you want more, then tell him what you want, give him a list to choose from.

However, what are you going to be giving him. You think SF is his primary need, and I am sure it is high. But, he might like passion from you, he might like respect from you, he might like to simply know that he could depend on you when the going got tough. What are you going to give him? Have you asked?

There is one thing you should also note. He loved you, hung in this marriage, and tried his best for you, when he got very little from you. He did it because he wanted to. He wanted to see you happy. He wanted you in his life. He wanted the mother of his children with them and him. These things are not grand things when compared to a good "bodiace ripper", or "Breakfast at Tiffanies (sp) "

I fear you have a dream that is very out of touch with reality, but with work it can be changed, be very rewarding and be something your H can give to you.

I'm reminded of an event that happend on this site many years ago. A lady was complaining that her H never gave her anything for their anniversary or her birthday, etc. She would also take things back if she did not like them, hence her H had stopped bothering to shop for her.

This tread generated a lot of discussion and it was suggested that perhaps she should make a list of all of the things she wanted for her Bday or anniversary. She was opposed because it was not romantic, he should be able to read her mind and pick up her hints. Further, she was telling him what to buy her and that just did not seem right. We discussed this at length and she finally came to realize that he could choose anything from the list, buy something else, or buy nothing at all. Her giving him the list was not TELLING him what to buy.

So she made up a very long list of things and her Bday came up. We all waited to see what he had bought her. She came on and was in shock. He had bought her EVERYTHING on the list. She could not believe it. She was in shock. Finally she asked him why he had done that. He said, "I have always wanted to make you happy, when I tried you took the gifts back. But, once I knew what you wanted I first bought the necklace, and I just felt soo good knowing I was buying you something you wanted, that I bought the ring, and then the dress, and the coat and the..."

The issue was never that he was a tightwad, or selfish, or insenstive, or self-focused. It was simply he did not know how to please her and her feedback until she gave him the list had been negative so he had given up. She had worn him down.

After that she had to be very careful to put only what she wanted on her list and hold it down for fear he would hurt the family financially by buying her everything she wanted.

Nowis, make your list, but make sure it is really what you want and it is something your H can afford. He has spent a lot on you so far with respect to emotions and pain.

Quit living in fear, and realize you do have what you need if only you would realize it, treasure it, address it, and use it.

God Bless,

JL

How interesting,JL.

I don't want to hi-jack Nowis's thread, but I thought I would respond because we are going through so many of the same issues.

I have come to the conclusion that it is our fears that have damaged how my W and I relate to each other, and have contributed t our "falling out" of love.

I had her make a list. My instructions were to tell me what she wanted. Be honest...brutally honest and write dwn what you want, what you need in this reltionship.

I'll share her results for Nowis to see:

Confident, Respectful, Masculine, Charming, Good in bed.

Basic things that I have heard over and over in the course of our relationhip. It only angred me to her those things before because I am that guy in my mind....but I was never that guy in my actions.

My W does not care for material things. I have gifted her plenty over the years, and it is appreciated, but not fulfilling. She wants my time, in addition to the things listed above.

It took her having one foot out the door for me to realize the importance of those wants and how they directly related to her needs.

I am blessed to have a woman who has stuck it through years of unhapiness to see if we can work out our issues. She has a good heart, and we are finally getting help.

Our fears have nearly destoyed us, and we have a new understanding of them now, which is helping us to finally face them.

NowIs, have you guys made a list like this?

It helped me (I made a list out too) and it doesn't recquire a special form or have to follow a certain format. We each have wants and needs and it is only through brutal honesty that we can learn what those are and try to meet them.

I like te fact that it takes the selfishness out of the realtionship an forsces you to work together for a soulution.

I now have an action plan, an agenda, a mission, if you will that MAY save our marriage.

Let me know what you think....I have to go and fix our leaking shower now for just one of my "manly tasks of the day" :~)

JL

I do kind of confuse things ....lol. However, I'm glad I thrashed it out.

If I just stick with the principle of giving love then inevitably I receive love - then I will know love. I'm beginning to know it already. Love is an action word too. Feelings come and go. Instead of messing with it - just accept that this is love. I think the not 'feeling' love comes from old patterns and stinky thinking. The therapist says it is connected to me always looking for the ultimate love and never getting it, my dad.

Yes, my H is not a mind reader. He would give me the world. My priority now is to not be fearful about responding to him and giving, giving, giving because it's only then can I continue to receive and nurture true love. We haven't been romantic but I'll begin to work on it. He would like that - candlelight dinners etc. I got it JL, I got it. The gestures thing..... I get it. More peripheral not at the core - as a result of our love, not a main component of it. I think when you said I can ask my H now for what I need - I got side tracked because, honestly, I didn't need any thing. I just need him and our love, and I have and am working on that - no need to go looking for other stuff. I surely made a dog's dinner of that!

So, no more living in fear - I have what I need.

Hi PNM

Glad things are still going well.

Yeah, you know, I have what I need materially. My H would give me the world. I think I want an amazing love and that's what we're working towards. There are a few niggling things but we have been aware of those for some time and work on those. Taking the initiative on things, the children, himself. They are not blocking our way.

It is very much me doing with work right now. My thinking, my giving, my loving. My H is willing and eager to respond and do anything. Things have changed so much this last month because of what I have learned here and the simple steps which I have taken. Incredibly my heart is feeling love for him and what's more, I pretty much think he's the most amazing person in the whole world right now! He wanted respect from me and he's getting it, I can't help but give it now I get what he's been through for me. What the heck happened to me.....lol

That is great stuff right there, NowIs. That is the stuff love is made of and it shows that you guys ARE going to make it. You will figure out enough of what is missing and the guy he is, he will defintley be able to provide it to you.

Best of luck and thank you so much for your story. You have helped me tremendously.

PNM,

Wonderful post, I do hope that you and your W can overcome the fear and find real happiness in your marriage. I suspect with your insight this will happen.

God Bless,

JL

Nowis,

What can a say to you girl? I am thinking of the KISS technique. Suddenly the KISS techniques seems sooooo right for you. You do know what the KISS is don't you. It stands for 'Keep It Simple Stupid'. I employ it often.

But, in your case I think it needs expanding. I think every time you start to worry or fear something about your marriage you need to go over and give your H a big KISS, and remind yourself, good marriages and love is simple, if only we could stay focused on the important stuff.

I don't know if you ever coached sports or taught, but I often find it interesting that the biggest thrills and the most rewarding events in my life with regard to sports were not my victories but were watching kids/teenagers learn to do what they thought they could not do. I could go on for hours. I just get such a thrill watching them do things like that.

I think marriages are a bit like coaching. When we get it right we want our spouses to be happy, succeed, become who they really are. You and your H have that chance. You are far more than you realize and your H knows it. You have fears, and yet you don't have to fear him or him leaving you do you? So what could you fear in this marriage that would be worse? He has fears as well. He needs your support in this marriage.

But, Nowis, as you continue to progress, as you talk about "romantic" things to do...perhaps occasionally, it will become a positive trigger for you both. That is what you really seek.

Have you ever watched an older couple who have been married 40,50,60 years? If not you should. You will see them give each other a hard time, sometimes be very critical, but then you see in their eyes a twinkle, you will notice a word, a gesture, a phrase, a [censored] of the eyebrow. Something is communicated and often it is in their own language. Happily married couples develop a language, key phrases, something that reminds them of the good times, how to avoid something bad, whatever. You and your H need to do this. It comes from shared experiences, perhaps a "romantic" event that truly was romantic, or perhaps a romantic event that somehow turned into a mess. One develops a sense of humor, laugh at the bad, smile at the good, and share.

I truly think as you two grow closer, you will finally understand what it means to become "one" in a marriage. It is not that you are the same, it is that you and your H share so much that only shorthand is necessary to express things. It means that it hurts you more to see him hurt than yourself, and the converse as well.

I know all of this sounds so "touchy feely", and really if you knew me you would be rather surprised, but the reality is a good marriage comes with a good attitude, it comes with humor, it comes with being a good "coach" for one another.

As you quit projecting your FOO issues onto your H and lay down the fear so that you can actually see him for who he is, faults and all, then you will find all of this so much more comfortable.

You are doing well, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL while I understand you intended this for Nowisthemoment I want to say thank you, you have really spoken to me on this issue. Thank you for sharing this. The advice in this post have deeply moved me.

The thing I am really upset about is it has taken me so long to understand and receive this.

Such incredible advice. It is simple to say but not easy to do. I am encouraged by your words, and I now have to figure out how to accomplish this for my own marriage. I am STILL LEARNING.

This has been a wonderful experience, being able to participate in this discussion. Thank you all for sharing.

Sorry Nowis I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

JL

Have you been talking to my H? - he said that to me!

He's got it. For the first time in a long time, he says he feels I am IN this marriage. For the first time in a long time I feel I AM.

Okay, I will definitely employ the KISS technique. Simple seems to be working for me. Like fake it till you make it.

Thanks for your patience, understanding and wisdom.

bcboy

NO apologies necessary. I'm happy you're receiving from here instead of just giving.

Nowis and BCBoy,

Have you noticed how many people have read the posts on this thread?? You two are helping a lot of people as are the others that post here.

You never stop learning, that is for sure. I know I learn something new everyday.

You two have a good holiday.

God Bless

JL

JL
Thank you for your kind words

I have appreciated you sharing your wisdom here. I would like to hear further from you on how you, or if you have suggestions on, how to create that intimate bond, the humour, the winks, creating that intimate environment with your spouse.

I think you have hit on a subtle yet important component of the marriage relationship. What you are talking about is the refinement and joyful enjoyment of each other. The maturing, and the reward of creating a loving marriage.

If you have any thoughts on how to instill / coach this in a relationship I would certainly appreciate hearing from you.

JL, bcboy

I wanted to ask you guys before I ask my H. When I initiate SF he is right there, willing and happy to respond. However, I've noticed that he is not initiating SF at all. This may be because of months of rejection but I'm not sure what to think about it. Just hit by this these last couple of days. What do you think?

I would like to hear what JL has to say on this but I will offer my thoughts.

1) He is a sensitive guy and you have previously indicated you did not enjoy SF. He probably picked up on this and is reluctant to press the issue. He may have initiated only when he physically NEEDED to get some release.

2) You are initiating sufficiently often and he is just loving the fact that you are. He may be in a state of shock wondering if he will wake up from this dream to find out that he was imagining the whole thing.

3)He may be reluctant to do anything different for fear something might change causing you to revert back to not interested. Maybe he is waiting for the other shoe to drop and does not want to get his hopes up, but he is going to enjoy it while it lasts.

4) He might be wanting to see how commited you are.

5) He may be cruel and is waiting to see how long it is going to take before you snap.

In my opinion if you are doing the initiating that is going to be a great boost for him. With the insecurity and all the other feelings he will have to deal with surrounding the A, I would think it is a good idea for you to continue initiating. Eventually you can, (when you know his self esteem has been sufficiently bolstered) start to indicate you would appreciate it if he would initiate. You will have to be ready for any hint of this as he may need encouragement, so you need to be receptive, willing, and enthusiastic when he does.

But in my opinion you may need to keep initiating for some time to come. Remember he is recovering from an emotional train wreck but you are providing the appropriate therapy to help him recover as quick as can reasonably be expected. (KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. And good for you for looking after things in the SF department)

Here is a thought for you. In your most encouraging and seductive voice you could say to him "If this isn't often enough for you all you have to do is ______ (ask, wink, sneeze) and I would be more than happy to SF. I really like being with you and we need to make up for lost time (or something like that). Let him know you are ready willing and able, any time any where. Now if he has a pulse that will likely get his motor running, and provide the invitation for him to express himself. But don't be discouraged if you don't get the response you are looking for right away. You know him better than me, but he sounds a little hesitant.

I may be alone in this issue, but in my opinion SF is often a barometer for a guy on how well the M is going, and is often used as an emotional connection with DW. So keep it up.

Perhaps you can get this from JL but I was reading an old post where he and Lovinganyway were offering some advice obout a book on how to understand how guys approach a relationship. I should have written it down as I thought the things they were discussing were spot on.

Good Luck and congratulations, sounds like things are going well.

Hi bc

Thank you so much for the insights. I haven't asked him yet, just didn't feel there was a right time. It really could be any of your 5 points - although extremely unlikely to be number 5. My hesitation also comes from not wanting to hear anything in relation to the A. I know it is very painful for him and sits just under the surface all the time. In addition, without becoming graphic, he 'gets there in the end' but it never used to be like this. The act itself, although loving and giving has hesitancy and uncertainty. I wonder in SF that this is as a result of the A. Maybe what is going on in his mind. Is he struggling (I guess so), with how he views me? I know, bottom line, it's all still pretty new for us again. Things feel rather fragile sometimes.

Is that what he would be thinking? Is that what's going on in his head?

I don't want to mess things up - am applying the KISS technique JL.

So bc I should I just leave things and carry on doing what I'm doing?
- I suppose I should then.