MoDaisy and JL,

You are right I am analytical. I came here because I was feeling guilt and that could be the result of other buried feelings. Of course, I am scared to go back. I think that it is like PTSD, but of course not as serious since I wasn't almost killed or something. I was just marching through and then the situation changed and threw me for a loop.

I don't think I can love someone and be scared they will hurt me. I'm working on the best way to be honest. I like keeping the 6 year plan secret since I think it is like a bomb. I can probably think of a way of saying that my heart is not in the marriage and I am around for the kids.

I am sad to hear that it will take a long time of new behavior before I could possibly feel differently but I think that is a realistic assessment. I have read enough of these postings to realize that the BS (why not loyal or faithful instead of betrayed?) often gives up due to the damage done to them during the A and Plan A.

I'm going to take some time and just process, I'm looking for an individual counselor for me.

I wanted to clarify something since I got a personal message telling me that size isn't everything.

I'm not saying I think I'm a porn star or that all the women are discussing my size. I'm happy with my body.

My embarrassment comes from the specific discussions. That most likely means that similar discussions took place during the A comparing me and the OM. No matter how my equipment measures up against his, there was probably a time that my wife was telling these same women that she preferred his. It is humiliating, I'm sure everyone including the women can empathize. Imagine a detailed discussion by your partner with people you know that compares you with someone else.

Do you realize that if you do leave the marriage in six years and get into another relationship (I'm assuming you're not planning on being alone) then you'll have to work on that relationship as well?? All relationships are hard work. So, the only difference in staying with your wife or not is that you'll not have the past hurt. What would happen if you could forgive that hurt- and start over fresh?

Sure it's fun at first to be with a new person but eventually each relationship becomes work. There are EN's to be met, home chores to deal with, children, illness, etc. Many of those issues are the same in every relationship.

You do have the shared history of these years with your wife and she knows you well. You guys have been through life together. As someone stated before what would you have to lose in working the plan and counseling with the Harley's? At the very least you'll be able to look back in six years knowing you did everything you could to save the marriage? At this point she's probably be willing to do whatever to save the marriage.

Do you see what I'm saying here? There will eventually be issues in every relationship.

coachswife,

I have not thought about relationships past the 6 years. I will probably want one, but not a marriage in my current frame of mind.

I know that all relationships have issues. If forgiveness means giving up my right to revenge then I can do that. If it means that I am able to live with what happened in the same house, I'm not so sure.

Let me set your mind at rest on one issue. women RARELY get into the details of what happens in our intimate SF moments.Listen to what I am about to tell you, on behalf of women everywhere:

WE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO TALK ABOUT

Seriously. I am 44 years old. I am on my second M. I have many friends, co workers, etc, that I have lunch with, travel with, talk on the phone with, and I have never talked about any of my SF experiances. And I do not know of a single woman who has ever compared her H to her adulterous lover in front of another woman. If anyone tried to pull that crap with me in the room - I would stop it in an instant. I know you are shaking your head right now saying stuff like "that is you - you don't know my W" but I am telling you that women do not like to talk about which body part is stroked which way, and what they preferred. Occasionally, if a man has treated us very bad in the past, we may make a comment like "he was never good in bed anyway!" but that is only when we are not in that R any longer, and the man has proven himself to be a total jerk. We say that our old BF was never that great anyway, we giggle about it, and then we move onto something else.

so perhaps you have heard a conversation like that in the past, and figured we women sit around discussing the details of every lover we ever had - but it just ain't so. We are WAY too busy talking about how you did not smile in the morning as you walked out the door, and does that mean you are mad, or does it mean you are worried about getting fired today. We also talk about how you wore the blue shirt to work today, and does that mean you are trying to impress your new female co-worker, becuase after all you only wear that shirt when you are trying to impress someone. Honestly, we women are so obssesive about what our men are thinking, or feeling, that we would never have time to talk about SF.

so get over yourself all ready.

We don't give a rip about the size or the way it is used. That is your hang up. We do give a rip about how you feel about us, how you touch our heart, and whether or not you truly will be there for us when we grow old and gray.

This comment of yours is starting to make me mad:

I know your W has treated you badly. I get that. It sucks. But why are you out for revenge? (and don't tell me you are not out for revenge - you carry your little secret with you until you are ready to drop the bomb for maximum impact). the two of you are FAMILY. And you both are acting like you are enemies. What would happen if you started to treat her like you loved her, and wanted to protect her??

Finally, your 6 year plan is cold hearted, and self seeking. you will stick around to help her raise the kids, and avoid child support. And heck the SF is pretty good. But then, when she is older, and has fewer opportunites to find a loving M, you plan to dump her. If you would just man up and D her now, she would have 6 years to find a new loving relationship. But no, you will keep your little secret from her so you can drop the bomb, and get out, leaving her to find her own way after her children leave the nset.

Nice plan

I think I am done with your thread.

I KNOW your W has treated you badly. I get that. But she appears to be making an effort to build a new, loving M. And it just so happens, she is trying to build that R with her H. The father of her children. Go figure.

womanoffaith5 - Please do not give up on this thread. What he needs more than anything is to continue to read what his plan really is. He may decide that he will continue forward but please keep saying what you are saying as it just might help.

Excellent post! Exactly right!

Folks,

Just a reminder, we don't know and presumably 6years doesn't know if his W has the same plan. After all her new behavior is only a few months old as compared to her previous behavior which is a decade old.

He doesn't know the real cause of her change in behavior and we don't. So calm down just a bit.

Given what he doesn't know and what we don't know, I chose to recommend he be honest with her. He mind find out she is planning on being out of her in 6 years as well. In fact, she may have stayed with him for the past decade for the same reason he is remaining with her...the kids.

6years, I think you are doing yourself a great disservice by not being honest with her and requiring she be honest with you. Oddly, her honesty about her affair would be nice, but it is not necessary. You know she had an affair, but more importantly she treated you as someone she did not love, value or respect, which is why affairs hurt so much. So whether she did or did not does not change the facts of her behavior toward you.

No one expects for you to fall back into her arms even if she tells you she loves you now and wants to remain married to her. What we KNOW is that if you and your W use the tools here you could regain a loving marriage, but it depends first on her motives and then on your motives.

Alot can be done in a year, an amazing amount can be done in 6 years. No matter who you meet in the future, no one, NONE, NADA, can give you back the last 10 years. They are gone and all that is left is the scar tissue.

You really do need to be honest, what do you have to lose? A woman you are going to dump in a few years anyway.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

JL, WOF5,

I'm taking alot of beatings right now. I am trying here. It seems like I have to put myself and kids at risk again in order to be a good guy. Maybe it will help you to see where I am at if you think about 120 months of being treated like garbage and 3 months of pretty good treatment. Still no admission of A, I guess I will have to pry that out of her, if I ever want to hear the truth. I know some of what happened but I need to know all of it. I need to know all of it and I can't promise that I will be willing to stay after I hear it all. How do I explain that and expect to get any cooperation at all?

I am glad to hear that women don't sit around and discuss the details of their lovers, men don't do that either. Still, I'm going to have to ask about it and I will need a truthful answer. I wish I could make it clear that I am not out for revenge. I could easily have spent the last 10 years sleeping around and she would not have noticed. I don't want to be hurt again, she is the only person who has hurt me so much and is still in my life.

As to why she stayed, She got dumped by the OM. So I guess I get to spend the rest of my life being the consolation prize. Then she spent 6 months moping around and biting my head off constantly. Gradually got over it and just enjoyed me treating her nice and not having to give anything in return.

I'm reading what you say and trying to process, I'm thankful you are helping me but I can't just stay "no matter what". This is so frustrating, I have all this stuff I need to make any decisions and I can't make any promises until I have it. Even then I'm betting it will take me years before I can decide. I'm sorry that 6 more years means that she won't be able to get a replacement for me until she is 46. Maybe, I should let her start looking now and when she finds someone she can move out and I'll finish raising the kids myself.

How do I get rid of 10 years of scar tissue, emotional damage? How long will that take? Assuming I get the details out of her, how long will it take before I get over those images? I know leaving in 6 years isn't perfect but I gave up on perfect a long time ago. Even now when we have SF, if she tries something new I wonder where that idea came from. I'm on empty emotionally, maybe some people are an endless supply selfless love and forgiveness I can't do it right now.

I don't understand the need from some of you for me to move so fast. You want me to put everything out there and just hope. The honesty is the hardest part you know.

MoDaisy,

Thanks, I do need to read all the sides. I just figured out how to read old postings so I'm learning a bit about each of you. I guess I kind of resemble WOF5's ex, except I'm not a cheater. Maybe that is bringing me some extra 2x4's from her. Do any of you know another man who has an experience similar to mine. I need to know if someone can get over this or not.

Reading others perspectives will be helpful. Have you asked yourself "Can I get over this"?

Let me ask you a question -

#1 - Do you love your wife? Try to clear away the hurt, pain, anger, resentment, and any other issue. Do you love her?

It appears to me that you "can" get over it as you have. You have said that you have simply avoided issues in order to keep a peaceful home life. (Maybe the homelife before is what drove her to the affair. I am not blaming you but the affair is the result of a broken marriage and you were part of that).

#2 - Do you want to love your wife despite her faults? Continuing to love your wife despite her faults is a sign of maturity in you - not her.

"Marriage requires a radical commitment to love our spouses as they are while longing for them to become what they are not yet. "

"Look right now at the ring on your left hand, commit yourself to exploring a new what that ring represents, and love passionately, crazily, enduring the person who put it there regardless of their faults. "

Keep searching the boards and I am sure that you will find a man that has overcome the fact that his wife had an affair. But better, look inside yourself and ask, DO I WANT TO OVERCOME this.

My heart hurts for you. Weird, since I do not know you but I want for you what I want for me. A marriage that continues, grows, and points to the best side of people and not the worst.

I know you have said that you are not a "religious" person and I am thankful for that. Religion gets in the way of relationship everytime. Please consider reading Sacred Marriage? While the concept is simple, God designed marriage, you do not really need to "believe" in God to believe in marriage so the principles of the book just might speak to you.

6- I was reading this afternoon and you came to mind - consider this as you consider the depths of your 6 year plan.


Vengeance is a passion to get even. It is a hot desire to give back as much pain as someone gave you ... the problem with revenge is that it never gets what it wants; it never evens that score. Fairness never comes. The chain reaction set off by every act of vengeance always takes its unhindered course. It ties both the injured and the injurer to an escalator of pain. Both are stuck on the escalator as long as parity is demanded, and the escalator never stops, never lets anyone off.

MoDaisy,

Maybe I do want revenge, I sure did at first. Now I just want it to be over. I'm pretty sure that is true because at first I used to imagine seeing her suffer like I did. Now when I think about it I never even think about whether it will hurt her or not. I would actually prefer that it hurt less, so it could just be over.

I'm still thinking about forgiveness. Maybe I made a huge mistake, or just bad luck, and I burned myself out completely before getting anything back.

Should I just wait and see if I turn around enough to care. I suppose I could bring the needs book home and see if she is interested.

6YL:

MB is about PLANS.

What is yours?

Wait 6 years, have the kids grad HS, and then Plan D Mrs 6yl.

That's a plan.

But it is a plan fueled by revenge.

As I said earlier, my BW was on the same plan as you.

And that was even BEFORE she know about the A.

But, here we are, 37 months later. Absolutely in love.

Why? Honesty.

My A was revealed, and she owned up to her parts of a bad M pre-A.

Do you need to start tonight?

Yes.

Does that mean you demand her honesty tonight?

No.

Does that mean you tell her everything tonight and that is "honesty"

No.

You start by being honest with her.

No more avoiding the conflict, or the elephants in the room.

IT has been suggested that you don't ASK her if there was an A. You assume there is, and you know there was one, and proceed accordingly.

Accept that the M that you had for 10 years wasn't the greatest.

And you had a hand in that.

This site existed at least 8 years ago. Look at JL's log in date.

You made your Plan A changes, and that is terriffic. Now you start to make the Honesty changes that are required.

Your (F)WW seems receptive.

You CAN do this. It not WHEN you start, it is because you HAVE started,

I understand that it is TOUGH to make the first steps. You can get hurt again and Mrs 6YL can go back to being the same way. Life is a risk.

But the past 10 years are what your M was and your responsibility too. It's time to take the next step and work towards restoring this M to what it might have been in the beginning.

LG

LG,

My problem is that my plan used to look fair and to be the best I could do. Now it looks cruel. Right now, I don't want this marriage. I don't want to struggle past this. I don't want to just bury the A and get over it. I also want to keep the kids and I don't want to be cruel.

It feels like I can't win. I know myself well enough to know that the only chance for me to forgive is for her to admit it, apologize and try to make it right. I doubt she can make it right but she needs to try. I have apologized for my part in the bad M. I even did it during the A, which almost killed me. Then I went on to fix the things she said were wrong with me.

I think I can start with a small step, but at some point I am going to have to say admit to the A or I can't do any more.

Maybe I'm not MB material, I never found this site until a couple of years ago. So I did some things wrong. I'm glad you worked out your stuff. I was wondering how horrible you were to your W during your A. I don't want to get out my notebook of horrible things she did and said, but it is a long long list.

6yearsleft,

I haven't posted to you before, but it seems you're getting beat on pretty good, and I thought I might throw my .02 out there.

From my perspective, I think you are completely within your rights as a BH to feel, act and plan as you have been. We see people here all the time claim to "stay M"d because of their kids" ... well, just how do some of these folks that are criticizing you think those BH's get through those years ... by simply "sucking it up" that's how.

It would be "nice" to have a fully recommitted FWW that owned her sh1t, felt the full range of remorse and guilt, and LEARNED from their mistakes and made a loving fully engaged equal partner with their BH for the rest of their lives, but that just isn't REALITY in some cases.

I couldn't do what you HAVE, without even considering what lays ahead during the next 6 years, but you seem to know yourself, and if you can, more power to you, because you will undoubtedly need it.

I would much rather see a BH who is true to himself and honest about his feelings, emotions and current status, than one who remains in denial, and can't even be truthful to himself (and I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the BH's here at MB that fit this description) about where they really are, or where they're going, as I have no respect for BH doormats, especially those who continue to advise others to be just like themselves.

6YL:

You say your not MB Material. I don't believe that. There is help for your here. Maybe not on the DB, but your answer is here. Dr. H has seen it, worked on it, understands it, and has a plan for it.

An MB weekend may work for you.

Buy "Surviving an Affair" from this website, if you don't have it already. Pull it off the shelf and start reading. Again. Maybe she will pick it up.

You need her to admit it. I could NEVER have gotten to this point with out my full honesty to my BS about what happened during the 4.5 years of my A. I answered her questions and I filled in the blanks until she had enough. She also knows that she can ask a question at any time and I will answer.

So HOW do you make her do it? You can't MAKE her do anything. There is information from the Harleys in dealing with the WS's who DO NOT admit to the A. I do not know how to get the info for you, it is available in the links to left or right.

Guess what, this sounds like a plan right here:


Make the small steps, Make it safe for her to talk. some of honesty is just being able to speak about certain things and being accepted in them. BIG step in my M. You need to make your W feel safe to talk with you. Then getting to admission is alot easier.

If she believes that you will leave her if she admits it, then she has no reason EVER to tell you the truth. Because she gets what she wants even without telling you. Your still there.

So, change the playing field. "Mrs 6YL, during your A, you did, said, and acted in certain ways, that were very hurtful to me, and your family. You might not have realized ALL the things that caused hurt at the time. You were NOT being the Woman that I fell in love with and married at that time. I made a choice at that time, to stay for my family and my vows. I have continued to make this choice, to have you in the family. I can make the different choice. Your honesty may help me want to stay.

I have to run..

More later...

LG

Thanks for the support Revelation

LG,

How do I make it safe? All I can honestly say is that I'm here until the kids are grown. I'll do that no matter my feelings. Having the whole story would help our situation but in the end I might still decide that I can't do it.

I guess it is safer than the current plan, but how can I explain it in a way that seems safe. I can't do the POJA thing on this, we actually do it all the time on most things.

There is nothing wrong w/ this. I would absolutely expect her to come clean as well, or you both could start taking steps to move on.

I HAVE heard all the crappy things you have heard. We all have. I could probably tell you exactly what she said to you during the A. I have not dwelt on that part, because it is her crap that she needs to own up to. I can't really give you any advice on dealing with that. But rest assured, we have all heard that stuff. My ex said I was never a good wife, he never loved me, not one single day of the whole 18 years. Every trip we ever took was horrible, and only tolerated to make me happy.

the first few things he said left me sobbing on the floor, in a puddle. I was horrified. My H never loved me. why didn't I know that? After awhile I realized that what he was saying was just too ridiculous to believe. He never loved me? wrong. I knew better. He never would have stayed 18 years if he didn;t love me - not him. And every trip we ever took together was horrible? Wrong. I had been there. I knew better. I think that is why I can deal with those painfull memories now - because I know he was out of his friggin mind back then.

Of course, we ended up divorced, but not over the horrible things he said. It was because he just did not want to give up dating other women. he admited it and I decided it was best to move on.

I do not think it is ok to say things "in the heat of the moment that you really did not mean". that is not my style. But I know that some people do that sort of thing. Your WW has said some things that I am sure she regrets. and here is the really stupid part - many, many times a WS says things like that and truly does not remember them later. I suppose it is similar to a drunk.

Does that mean you have to forget it all, bury it, and expect to hear more hurtful things in the future? Absolutely not!

In fact, burying it is the worst thing you can do. Conflict avoidance is the death of any M.

but you can sit down and have an honest conversation w/ your W and say:
1. 10 years ago, you said X, Y, and Z to me. these things are still in my mind, and hurt me to the bone. I can not forget them.
2. I need to be sure that you will not say such mean, hurtful things to me in the future.

In my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to tell her that you want the whole truth about that relationship from 10 years ago. You need to give her a safe time and place to talk, but I think this is a normal expectation.

In the book SAA, it talks about going into Plan B to save your remaining love for your WW. It says that you should not do a plan A for very long, because it will kill your Love bank. That is what has happened to you, you have nothing left because you allowed this mess to remain unspoken for so long. The two of you pretend everything is ok, but in reality nothing is ok.

You CAN get the love back for her. You can. You have nothing to lose by trying.

You just need to find a way to get the conversation going, in a completely open, calm, manner. Not making demands, no threats. You are both adults now.

WOF5,

I'm pretty sure I could just hand her the notes I took, sort of a journal. I can do it without yelling or anything, as you can imagine I'm not much of a screamer.

Do you think it would be too overwhelming? I just wrote what she did that I know is true and what she said, I did not include how it made me feel or what I thought. It will be about 100 pages of stuff that would make you cry to read it.