No, I'm not disappearing again. I just want to try and NOT vent on you guys, wasting all your time, like I did last time. If I posted everytime I feel like talking, God, we'd be on page 100 already. I don't talk to anyone. My family thinks I'm perfect, so thats no good. Her brothers, who always told me how "special" of a person I was, have avoided me like the plague, I don't want to get her parents all caught up in this (they WERE, when we last talked, before the summer, telling her she is wrong and to try and improve this marriage.) But that was before the summer, now, I don't know.

Also, I am kind of bummed at them. They have a beach house where my wife spends most of the summer. I loved it when it was a place her and I could spend time together, now I see it as a place she ESCAPES to, so I no longer find it appealing (according to her, this means I ALWAYS hated it.) Well, I'm a bit upset with her parents because they allowed her to stay with them the ENTIRE summer. I know my mom would NEVER allow that. I feel that they should have told her "Listen, we would love to have you here, but you are off for the summer. Go back home and work on this thing with your husband. The kids could stay here. You go home and work on it. Whether it gets better or worse, but youre NOT hiding out here. You have time now, no work, no responsibilites, only to try and make it work....if you choose to escape, it CAN'T be here." But they didn't. They let her camp out there.

I've told her the same thing for the last 3 years, but she just ignored me. Maybe if the parents said this to her, MAYBE something could have been resolved, for better or worse. I don't know. A dissolving marriage involves SO MANY PEOPLE. If I am to believe all the hugs, kisses and "I LOVE YOU"s my INLAWS have given me, then I expect them to ACT as if they do NOW. If they simply turn away, and IF the marriage becomes better, my relationship with them will NEVER be the same. I just wouln't believe them when they tell me such things.

Well, on the recorder front. Monday was the first day in the car and nada. Just the radio, no calls, nothing. (The ride home is a bit over 1 mile) We also have a MC session this Friday. This is the first in about a year for me. The doctor wanted to see her alone until he thought she was ready to work on this thing. I don't know, I'm sceptical. I think this may be D day for me.......

Oh, and Fiori, I don't know, maybe its a MY SPACE. I could have sworn you had a link to SOME social website. Maybe it wasn't you. I tried to find it and I can't. Sorry If I made a mistake, I could have sworn it was you.

GG - I'm a little unclear. Has you wife been seeing the counselor or not? Just wondering.

I think I know what you mean about the summer home. Although it's on a much smaller scale, when we first married, my husband would for some reason go and visit his parents and eat supper there every night. Then he'd come home, see, and I'd have supper waiting here. I felt betrayed by all 3 of them, you know? I'm sure that this would have gone on and on if I didn't finally convey my hurt and anger about it.

I know it isn't the same thing, but I think what it is, is that parents just want their kids to be happy. They want their kids to feel safe and I think parents will always want to protect their kids, even when they're grown ups.

I get what you're saying, absolutely. But...I think they probably don't know what to do for her and are letting her run the show, as she seems accustomed to doing in any other aspect of her life. If the two of you are still together next summer, you may want to talk to them about this before school lets out.

It could also be that they told her to invite you, and she might have said no. Or...they may think you knew you were invited and didn't want to be there.

Yeah Soolee

She HAS been seeing a counselor. The same one WE will be going to see this Friday. For some reason they want me there now. I guess it should point to her maybe wanting to work on this. But, a gut feeling tell me they are gonna give me the old size 10 boot out the door. Just got a bad feeling.

Your story about dinners is exactly right. And IF we are together next year,it wil be one of two things. One, we are still where we are today, which I can't see. In that case, I WILL approach them. Or two, we are in a better way, which if THATS the case, I will be down there with her. She has in her mind that I ALWAYS HATED the beach because of certain people, but that is her looking back RE INVENTING the past. I LOVED going down there way back when. It was ONLY after she used it as an escape that I started to dislike the people and the place.

And that "me disliking people" thing is a big problem between us.
Basically my wife is very nice to others, whether or not she really has any use for them or not. Me, I wear it on my sleeves. It takes alot for me to like someone. One of my problems, I admit, is, in the past, I would go to a get together, not like someone and than rag about them. After a while she didn't want to hear it. So I understand. But its funny, my wife will NOT tolerate certain things from me, yet will tolerate them from others. I think that sucks. I'm her family, I AM THE ONE who should get the benefit of the doubt. For instance, sexual jokes, from me, BIG no no. From others, she laughs like its the funniest joke in the world....I don't get it. If you are gonna yell at me, AT LEAST, smile and turn away when someone else says something.....no? Or take my neighbor for instance. He goes on week long golfing outing in Hawaii, but won't buy a snow blower. Everytime I go out to do mine, AND ANOTHER NEIGHBORS (ELDERLY)driveway, WHO GOES OUT, WITH SHOVEL IN HAND, at the same time, EVERY SINGLE TIME? You guessed it. And my WIFE yells at ME,when I tell her how much he bugs me!!!! If I did the same thing, she would read me the RIOT act, about how if I had enough money to golf, I have enough to buy blower, and not to expect the neighbors to be responsible for OUR driveway. I can't win!!! This summer, this loser promised my wife that since he had rented a back hoe for his yard work, he would come over and yank out a nasty bed of vines for her. I started laughing, and, of course she got ticked off. I told her NO WAY HE'S COMING OVER, NO, EFFIN WAY.... what do you think happened? Thats right, those vines are still there. He's a one way cat, all for himself. And yet, he is defended against me. And, again, if I WAS like that, OMG...There would be hellllllllllll to pay.....

Well, there I go, ranting again. Sorry, I'm trying NOT to do this. Thanks for reading.

Last night my H told me that he did not like it when I saw someone walking down the street in ill fitting or unmatching clothing and pointed it out to him. What? I can't say that to him??? He's allowed to say whatever he wants but I'm not allowed to do that? Ok, so now I won't. I can be stubborn. SO, now I can see myself saying NOTHING> I'm trying to see positive in all things negative. My new approach -- kill him with kindness. So sweet he gains 10 lbs. Love is a strange emotion. But he's worth it.

I truly understand how you feel.

Well, GG...You aren't going to like this, but I have to be honest with you. My husband does the same thing, and I also don't like it. And when I voice my feelings, I come across as prudish or holier than thou.

Sometimes we'll be on our way home from church, no less, and he can't make it the 4-mile ride without commenting on his dislike of this person or that person in church. Worse is that the kids join in, and I'm sitting there shaking my head thinking 'What the he!! is with these people?!' I didn't grow up like that, and I imagine your wife probably didn't either. His influence on the kids in a negative way is quite upsetting for me.

Here's the thing. As a mother, I don't want the kids hearing intolerance or prejudice coming from their dad. It sets a bad example. It just does. Second...as a wife - it screws up my opinion of him. I want my husband to be tolerant and patient, even with strangers. I don't want to think less of him. I want to be able to look up to him, but when he does that - I'm quite disappointed.

In fact, when he says kind things about people, it makes me beam with pride. It makes me glad I married him. He reminds me of my dad when he talks kindly of others, and well...I love my dad dearly.

Her tolerance in others, regardless of their flaws, is actually a Christian stance and probably something she grew up with. Plus, she doesn't have to live with these people, and these people aren't helping her raise her sons.

Your lack of faith in the goodness of others indicates to her that your outlook is tainted and that you have lost your faith in the potential for mankind to do good things or to change for the better. Having a spouse with a negative outlook can be depressing and exasperating, which is how your wife actually seems to feel in my eyes.

She has indicated in the past that your renewed faith is pretentious? This could be the crux of her opinion on that, or not.

I'm not trying to hurt you, but thought maybe a woman's point of view may help it all make sense for you.

Oh I understand FULLY what you are saying. But, my not having faith in others (and they give me NO reason to have faith in them) DOESN'T stop me from doing ANYTHING that I can do to help them. And my wife HATES it. ESPECIALLY if I spend money. She is good about giving lip service, but she will NEVER EVER SPEND ANY MONEY on them at all. If helping them means that a check is written, forget. Me, I'll see people for what they are, but I WILL help whenever I can, REGARDLESS of my opinion of them. Because that the way it should be. I know that sounds hideous, but it's true. What is so hard about helping others you like? I help those I like as well as those I don't. I put my money where my mouth is. Now, I admit, I've screwed up in my judgement of others, and I am TRYING to keep silent if I cross someone I have a problem with, if fact, I DO keep quiet.

But, let me tell you, my wife LIKES people she meets, but oh man, she isn't against spewing venom of groups of people as a whole. For example. I had a problem with the government raiding that Mormon camp and taking those kids. I have to explain. I don't think it in itself was wrong, I just have a problem because all of a sudden they are livid about middle aged men using minor girls to have kids with......gee I wonder if their RELIGION has something to do with it. I say that because it goes on IN THE INNER CITIES EVERY SINGLE DAY OF EVERY SINGLE MONTH OF EVERY SINGLE YEAR OF EVERY SINGLE DECADE in the INNER CITY and it involves mostly minorities. Teen pregnancy is RAMPANT and older men are the culprit many many times. Well, my "understanding, tolerant" wife was LIVID when I said this. Her take? "Well these girs were held against their will, with no tv, no radio, just used to have kids. Every KNOWS minority girls WANT the sex, want to get pregnant.......need I go on???? No, Soolee, I am perfectly happy in the way I treat others. I get to at least KNOW them a bit before I detest them. But, I also realize that I must change, so I am and I will.

The house she grew up in? Tolerant? Oh, no. Now, I admit my dad drilled into me to NEVER EVER TRUST anyone because they will always burn you. You know something, when it comes to money, HE WAS RIGHT. But like him, I am ALWAYS THE FIRST TO HELP, if I can. Regardless of my feelings. My wifes family? Heres an example.

Having dinner with her whole family. Father, mother, two brothers, sister, my wife and I. Her oldest brother has been going on for about 5 minutes about the evils of minorites. Using every single vulgar word to describe them, lazy, stupid, hideous, dumb, uneducated, smell, dirty, filty, etc, etc, etc,....Now, I'm NOT a bleeding heart liberal, by ANY means, and I was getting embarassed. So he finished with "...and I am sick and GOD DAMMED tired......he never finished. Because my FIL RIPPED INTO HIM..."Don't you EVER, EVER use the lords name in vain in MY HOUSE agian!!!!" This is AFTER going on and on and on about other people for 10 minutes.

This is the house she grew up in.

I understand I have a lot of work to do, I wish she did too.

Well, GG...maybe the Friday appointment will shed some light. Your wife may have some things to say that will help you both decide what to do about the marriage.

My previous post - that was coming from a woman's/mother's standpoint. I am not sure what to tell you about your hypocritical in laws except maybe some of it rubbed off on her and that sometimes we are blind to our own faults. It's like when you see the evangelists preaching against extramarital sex, and then the next thing you see on TV is that their secret lovers have come out with an illegitimate child, insisting that the evangelist is the father, kwim? It's alarming, disturbing, but there's nothing you can do about it but shake your head.

Sometimes, too, our own faults are very painful to see in others. We don't like how we are, and we sit back and don't change, but we expect everyone else that we're supposed to have influence over to be the picture of propriety.

Though you have given us no indication that her recent treatment of you has improved, I do hope that the counselor has gotten through to her in some way and that the appointment gives you some hope.

Soolee

And I have to admit, hearing your spouse rail on and on is NOT the most attractive thing in the world. I WILL not do it any longer.

I think the reason I did do that was that I used to FIGHT,tooth and nail, whenever my dad used to say stuff like, "you can't trust people" "they are scum" you will ALWAYS get ripped off,,," Now, in dealing with others in my life,(MOST, NOT ALL, thought the good ones keep getting harder and harder to find.)when they reinforce what my father told me, I guess I got angry because I so wanted to believe in a world where CARING rules and selfishness was the exception. I'm am finding out differently. But, I ALWAYS find people willing to ACT the part of a good guy, but when push comes to shove, i USED to get surprised and then, hurt. That has changed. Because of business and because I understand I NEED to change in order to keep my wife.

I hope you understand that I was NOT making excuses for me. I just tried to illustrate the mixed messages I keep getting from my spouse.

thanks.

PS Now that you mentioned it, her treatment has improved, but I just think its my imaginations, or shes tired and on top of her game,,,,,,something,,,,,I just can't quite put my finger on it....

No. I understand what you were trying to convey. I just have nothing to offer you in terms of ideas on how to get it through to your wife. She seems very hard to get through to.

Is she nothing like her old self, when you fell in love?

Do you think her improved treatment came after you mentioned to her that she was being a bully?

GG,
May I ask how old you are? I'm not sure why, but it seems necessary for me to process alot of what you and your wife go through. Also, your profession. I believe this is in the resteraunt industry. Could your lifestyle of NOT being home during normal 'family time' have contributed to her obvious resentment? That's what it seems like to me...she resents you. Now all you have to do is figure out why.

.

No Soolee

She is still the wonderful loving person I married.....she's just STOPPED being wonderful and loving to me, she still is to all others.


And yeah, it DOES seem to have gotten better since the "bullying" "converstation" now that you mentioned it.

Im 48 Fiori

And, yeah. I am perfectly aware that my business has A LOT to do with her resentment.

BUt, as my old posts said, she put so much pressure on making enough income that once she wanted me out, I was making too much to quit. AND it was barely enough, IF it WAS enough. For me to quit, I would have cut my salary in half. How was that gonna feel, if we were ALREADY stuggling. ANd she wanted to stay home, and she NEVER, EVER ONCE came to me and said: Look, I don't CARE how much money you make, I want you home and I want you to find a new line of work. That NEVER was said to me. The message that money could be less WAS NEVER EVER APPROACHED. Sure she wanted my to be home more, but the money had to IMPROVE. I'm a restaurant guy, NOT a magician.

BUt, yeah, IF i could change ANYTHING, my profession would be the first I would change if given the chance to go back in time.

Resentent. I still can't beleive thats what I get.......but, I am getting used to that reality. ANd I'm not so thrilled about it.

Are you taking the class(es) you talked about?

Yeah
I gotta pay for em thru my biz, my significant other can't understand why I would be taking Marriage counseling classes. She asked me if I thought THAT would FIX us, or if I was jealous that she had a masters and I don't.....and NORMAL people take classes that would help with their careers, so for me it would be an MBA.

I just love her so much.........she so easy to love right now.


Actually something happened last night I want to ask opinions on.

As stated before, I haven't been vomiting lately after talking to her, things are actually .....ah.........civilized, kinda. My mom asked HER and my youngest son over for dinner tonight. I'm working (and I wouldn't go if I was invited anyways, the facade would kill me) She asked me the following "Bill, I know you asked me to leave her alone (which I did, because I can't bare to hear how much she loves my mom. SHe knows ABSOLUTELY what "loving my mom" entails, anything else isn't) so if you want, I won't go, I'll just drop Bill Jr off." I told her,"No, go to dinner, my mom wants to see you too, not just junior" As I was finishing that statement, out of the corner of my eye, it seemed as if she was going off in a huff, like she couldn't stand that I said that my mom wants to see her.... Could her hatred be so much that the very idea that an old woman would put some heart and soul into a 30 year relationship with a DIL make her angry?

I think she just doesn't want to realize that her ending this relationship is gonna have ramifications BEYOND just us and is going to effect many others negatively. Again, another example of how seeking a divorce is NOT just about YOU.

Oh yeah, I woman down the shore passed away. My wife's family couldn't stand the woman. I wasn't thrilled either, but I had a lot less interaction with her than they did. Well, I guess we will be attending the wake and funeral. I will go, keep my mouth shut and be pleasant and helpful, like I should. BUt, this is another example of how I just see things differently. Now, if I couldn't stand someone, NO MATTER IF THEY WERE NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS or not, I'm just not going to no funeral. Can't be that phony. But, my wife would look at me like I was some sort of freak or something. In the past, I would have made my stand. I'm just not as interested in keeping "face" as my wife is. I now know that this is the sort of thing that is JUST NOT WORTH IT in me being pigheaded. Another thing for me to change.
But, if this woman came into dinner at my place while she was alive, and I picked up the check (out of respect for her being "close friend" with my in laws) they would have screamed and moaned and said that, with all HER MONEY, I should have charged her DOUBLE........I just don't get it. I really dont.

Cat, I've been reading some of your posts in other threads. If everyone were as polite and thoughtful as you....you are definately one of the best. Someone who REALLY IS here for others.

Aw shucks.

I have an observation. I'm not diminishing the he11 you're living in, saying it's not real, but I'm sensing more and more anger in you, the longer you're here. Which is good, IMO. You need to be mad about your situation so you'll feel worthy of standing up for yourself.

However, you do an awful lot of supposition on what you assume she is thinking. We all know that's a dangerous thing to do, because you could make a decision based on false knowledge. I know you know her very well, but I think that, with her FOO, you don't really understand WHY she may get angry or cold or whatever. Just that little interaction you've described makes it clear that she has to protect herself in her family. They're all a bunch of cutthroats, so it's either be mean and cold and critical like them, or get trampled. Which tells me that it's like what I thought when you first came here. She's still all tied up in pleasing her family, not being the sacrificial lamb, by proving to all of them that she has a handle on you, her kids, and everything else in life.

IMO, all she's ever wanted is to have her family love her unconditionally. Nothing is more important, because it's the one thing she's been denied. She treats you like crap because she trusts you, maybe even loves you - you do that to the ones you feel safest with, right? It's the ones who withhold their love that you scrape and scramble to please, in the off chance that they might give her a scrap.

Anyway, it seems to me that, if you learned more about psychology and why people do what they do, you'd be able to see beneath her veneer to why she is at the point and place she's at. And I guarantee it's about her family, not you. If you can get to that, you may be able to take a different path and maybe even tear down that wall of fear she has.

Assuming you wanted to.

Have you been vocal about her family's hypocrisy over the years? I was just wondering if that may be part of the problem too. I think no one wants to hear that their parents are wrong...

Have you, at any time, just asked her outright "sweetie, would you like a divorce?" I know she seems spiritually opposed to it...so I'm not suggesting she get one. I'm just wondering if she could remove all of her barriers, would she consider it.

I've asked outright. You really never know if you're getting an honest answer, but you can try to judge by their body language etc.

Oh, yeah. To no avail. She says that she isn't married to her dad, so he is what he is. WHen I ask her to explain the going to church and being like they are thing, she just shrugs. But she loves them.

I don't understand how she can see this in her parents AND still love them, but with me, faults have killed her love. I used to BELIEVE in the love between husband and wife being the strongest there is, but this is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Spousal love is NOT uncondidtional . That is a myth.