Thanks Stellakat. Your comments above really helped me understand why I was not feeling good about my recent relationship. It is amazing how close my feelings and behaviors are to those of the the husband. I hope for their sake they can patch this up and be happy. It will take a lot of work, but then what else is new?

MMM,

I re-read your H's email and I see a lot of hope for your marriage.

I don't know if this will help you or not--below I've re-written your email (not for you to send) so you can see the difference between respectful communication and what you were used to before. If I can stop abusing and recover my marriage, I have no doubt you can as well.

Guidelines...no "You" statements.


I hear you saying you don't believe I'm hearing you. I recently learned I don't listen well and I really want to. When I was confused or heard contradictions, I didn't confirm or clarify what you'd said by repeating what I heard. I'm going to do that now. I know my old way from fear was reading between lines and that wasn't really listening.


Good to know you are not against talking to me. I hear you saying you are open to talking to me. I hear in my head these severe all or nothing extremes...me trying to assume that means you couldn't care less or want to appear not rude, and I use these to talk myself out of calling you. I want to talk to you, too. I want to practice really listening and you're the one most in the world I want to hear and know.


I hear you saying you feel unimportant to me. I get that. I am learning how I tell myself something is my top priority and then act as if it isn't; again, talking me out of what I want most. I'm discovering that I beat on myself in the same way I've been beating on you. Thank you for sharing with me.


I fear you now see your life with me in it as horrendous, unbearable; I hurt myself imagining you feel overjoyed in your freedom from me the monster. These disrespectful judgments of you led me to assume you'd have filed for divorce right away.

I can now see where I hurt myself, I hurt our marriage. It's like I wasn't listening to you and I wasn't listening to me, either...just thought I was at the time.


I hear you saying you haven't mapped out the future and think we should get on with our lives. I feel really afraid inside when I hear the words "get on with our lives." I hear that as something finished, abandoned, split apart.

Good to know where you are at right now. I see us as living right now, still married. My life isn't on hold. I'm your wife and I'm learning a lot about how to be the wife I always wanted to be.


I feel abandoned and scared when you said you love certain things about me. I hear it as you don't really love me. Is that how you felt, that I loved certain things about you, too? I love you and I am in love with you. I want your forgiveness for so many things I have done and said to you. I feel hurt and abandoned, as if you plotted to make me feel this way. I have experienced that all my life...where I cannot tell if others intend to harm or not; sometimes, I strike first when I feel this way. I believe I've struck out at you when I have; I don't see where I hurt you and require your forgiveness--first I see me wanting to make me stop hurting. I'm changing now that I can see that about myself.


I wanted to hear everything you said--my own thoughts and reactions cut out a lot of what you have said. I'm sorry. I was looking at your statements as facts, comparing, aligning, trying to prove them true or false. I now know they aren't facts--they are you sharing with me, and how much you did, year after year, very bravely, I think. I know I don't have to piece together what you say and make it into something, some fact. I'm learning. I'm changing my communication, and finding a lot of fear behind my perceptions and what I thought was pride...I had this twisted up thing of being right was better than being married...because you would accept, admire and respect me if I was right. Felt awful and out of control to me to be wrong.


I am learning I have to face the past in order to move into the future. I believe if I don't analyze past hurts and mistakes, then how can I avoid them? I believe I can avoid hurt and mistakes. And I believe analyzing leads to understanding...which isn't true. To listen and repeat is a step to understanding--I don't have to fit pieces together...I can take you at your word, what you share, understand it as yours right now. I didn't do that before.

I did not fully meditate on what I was doing, my awareness...and I kept repeating my abuse over and over. My goal now is to stay aware and respectful, out of love for you, our marriage and for me.

I didn't want to be that person, H.


I would love to see your face and hear your voice in person again. I want to share respectfully, calmly and rationally--and I believe I can, as long as I stay focused on understanding, not solving. I promised myself if I caught myself slipping back into "you" statements, I would stop talking and maybe take a brief walk or break. I don't want to cross your boundary nor my own.

I would appreciate you speaking with me on the phone or in person because then I have your supportive eyes and ears to help me catch my old stuff.


I am choosing to save our marriage, H. I wanted to share my goal with you. I'm hearing from people for me to just face reality that you've checked out and don't love me anymore; and from others, saying I should hold onto hope even if it is just a thread. Both of those are dependent on you and I know I lived that way too long. Part of the reason for my old pattern of verbal abuse...so I'm accepting their opinions as their opinions and I'm choosing to work on myself and save the marriage.

------------

I broke this up as if you were having a conversation...you can see it better in your emails...have time to consider, rephrase, own and share...and in his, identify his sharing. Face to face or on the phone, our reactive patterns come back more, I think...we don't give ourselves the space to pause and think...give yourself permission to pause, rephrase into "I" statements, and mostly, repeat back what you hear...so you can really experience how much your assumptions distort what you really want with all your heart...to know and be known.

I went from a rapid talker to a slow one, MMM. Each time I heard the "DH is going to think you're making up a lie, or talking down to him, or you're putting on" I blessed that panicked voice and repeated back, shared in a simple sentence...confirmed or clarified when DH repeated back. We experienced deep intimacy this way...rebuilt our trust in each other and in ourselves.

Your marriage is in prayers,

LA

Hi everyone -- it has been a busy day at work and i haven't had much time to respond. I quickly read today's posts and will read them more in depth later.

I just want to thank all of you so much for your feedback . . .it is awesome and I am soaking it all in like a sponge . . .even the stuff that is difficult to hear. All of you investing your time to help me is really a blessing. . . .your comments come from your hearts. . .I can tell that.

I'll be back later and answer some of the questions some of you have posed.

Thanks LA for the different perspective. I can definitely see the difference between your statements and mine. I agree that I need to be a slow talker. I have been working on being a much, much better listener with other folks in my life since my H and I aren't in contact right now.

My friends and family have said that they can see a difference.

LA -- I have a few questions: How long did it take you to recover your marriage? Were you and your spouse separated at the time? Is your story posted in the forum somewhere?

You said that you see a lot of hope in my marriage, can you elaborate? I feel like I am entering withdrawal myself -- just giving up hope because I've hurt him so much -- I can't imagine him trusting me again.

Some comments Stellakat:


I think I do know what love is. . .everything started out okay. Then life happened and responsibility happened and somewhere along the way in my mind, my H became the enemy instead of an ally. I just couldn't cope and from my background (FOO), arguing like that was acceptable. So, I thought my way was right and his way was wrong. I can't believe I turned into this monster. . .I couldn't see it. . .I really couldn't.

Someone in this forum had asked why he married me in the first place -- well, I think it was because I was gentle and loving and soft and compassionate. We had common goals and dreams. Somewhere along the way. . .I just had to control it all and I left him and his needs in the dust.

As far as the list of things above, I can agree with most of them except for the following:

I see you not knowing how to love a person
I see you not realizing what it is like to love someone
I see you really want to smash and control him some more
I see you are feeling lost without him to BULLY

I do feel lost without him because I miss the sharing and making each other laugh and clowning around and being goofy. Basically sharing the good stuff. The bad stuff stressed me out too.


I would say that I treated my Grandma this way but she always let it roll off her back. . .that I was just blowing off steam. Probably to my parents too. My cousin recently said that when we were kids, I was a tough cookie. Some friends and coworkers have given me some feedback as well -- that I was perceived as rough and sometimes a b*tch. Yet, I have a lot of friends so I guess they just put up with it because the good stuff outweighed the bad stuff. But for my H, the constant bad stuff took its toll.


I believe I can change too. . .I am in counseling but none of the counselors I have seen (including the year we did marital counseling from 2004-2005) ever pegged me as emotionally abusive. They all diagnosed me with depression. I am almost finished reading a book on emotional abuse and cringed the whole way through it. I have an appointment this week so I am taking the book to my counselor.


Oh, trust me, I could fill up eight pages. . .no more denial this time. I've been humbled by this separation and the feedback from this forum.





Yes, I realize that I hurt him to the core. I saw how much I hurt him back in December. I was stunned by his raw emotion. Never, ever, ever did I imagine I was causing him so much pain. I guess that why I expected him to already have filed for divorce.

Thanks Auto -- it helps to hear from a gentleman who was in the same position as my husband is now.

I talked to my therapist yesterday about the feedback from this forum and the book I read about being emotionally abusive. i gave her more examples of how I feel I was abusive. In the next session, we are going to explore the things that I found relevant in the book.

I also ordered the Love Busters book from Amazon. I am not sure how I can show him the changes I am making -- he is so hurt and has closed himself off from me in every way possible. He doesn't trust me because I've made false promises before (intention was good but follow through was unsuccessful.) I am doing the self-evaluation that I've never done before -- that's what makes it different this time. I want to make contact but am afraid because I don't want to hurt him anymore or appear to be manipulative or controlling or pressuring.

Do you think that it is encouraging that he hasn't filed for divorce?

I am seeing a therapist now; I took in the book about emotional abuse that I was reading and gave her concrete examples of how I think that I was abusive. I am taking the book back to the next session and we are going to discuss some more.

I don't want a divorce; I do want to be a better wife. It is difficult to do that when he is living somewhere else and hasn't been making any moves toward reconciliation. How do I bridge that gap? How do I prove to him that I do love him and want to get back to the way that things were in the beginning?



No, I don't want to lose him forever but the situation is not encouraging. I don't want to have hope and then get crushed again; that is why I am having trouble with this limbo. You are correct -- he is in control of this situation-- and yes, it is uncomfortable because it involves my future too. I don't know what the motivation is behind his inaction -- anger, confusion, fear, love, revenge, spite?


If he were making any move toward me at all, then yes, I would feel better about the uncertainty and the extra time and space. I would love to feel that there is hope. But we've been separated 5 months now and I feel like he wants to forget our marriage existed, that I exist and that our marriage was a waste. He has never indicated that this was a temporary separation -- he is buying furniture for his new place, got a new laptop, making vacation plans with his family, etc.

I would rather that he would give some indication -- hope or no hope? His delay in filing seems to indicate some hope but he said shortly after he left that "he didn't want to give me false hope." Despite the things that I've done, I am human too and he has hurt me as well. I am trying to change and he even admitted that he saw a change -- and he left anyway. So, yes, I do feel like he is stringing me along. At this point, I feel like a divorce is inevitable.


I truly appreciate that he is exerting his manhood and standing up to me. It was long in coming. . .however, I would have loved for him to do that during our marriage. Not when leaving it.

It's been four years in recovery, MMM. Yes, we were separated for a month. It was a couple of nights after he moved out that I found MB and decided to fight for my marriage. My story is all over the forum in my posts. I didn't have one thread, ongoing. Here's the link to my original thread, though. Not in Recovery, but in NC

Which is why I see such hope in your marriage. From my experience...of realizing what a monster I'd become...having done so much more than you to crush pain into my partner...we went much further than you have and come back from so far apart. So I have hope and believe you guys can build a new marriage, too...with what you have right now.

Choose not to be in Withdrawal. Choose to act from your own choice to love your H...call and email with "I" statements, use listen and repeat...not to get him to do/feel anything. Do it because you choose to connect, share and be shared with. Ask him to help you...state your goal to act from respect and love.

I did.

Pull sharply on your reins and pull yourself into the present. stop going into what ifs and if onlys...they are fantasy. They are false comfort. Right now, you're half your marriage. Not how you experienced yourself before...you always were. Know that you do and not do by choice...your power. Don't base your choices on his response...that betrays yourself, him and the marriage.

Keep practicing...because you nor I are monsters. We just behaved our way into acting like ones. We can behave our way back...we are whole, complete and wonderful beings made from love. We really are. Know it and act from it.

LA

Hi Everyone!

I just got my Love Busters book yesterday and am a few chapters in.

I don't know how I can show my H the progress I am making with the LBs if we aren't in contact. My first thought was to send him an email asking him to check out the website and let him know the things I've been learning from the LB book.

But is it wise to do something like that? He may not even respond or tell me that he's not interested in investing his time in me or our marriage.


Any feedback would be appreciated.

MMM

Ready for some irony, MMM?

Educating your spouse is an LB.

Use your new tools by contacting H. As you read, list what your LBs have been...really dig into your previous permissions, your own whys, and then write down what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do them again.

This is how we purge our past...and you can send this deep apology to your H. Let go the response. Part of the amends for what we did.

Calling him to hear him share, and sharing yourself...an act of love. What he shares, listen and repeat...really hear and do not react to his stuff...you act and let the outcome go...never was yours to choose your actions from nor to control.

Have you been going to Alanon?

LA

Hi LA:

Good call on the educating your spouse thing -- just proof that I'm not ready for reconcilation yet myself. Would just fall back into same traps and a miserable marriage and keep hurting my husband.

Ok -- I'll dig into the book deeper. And I'll look up Alanon. . .I had forgotten that you had suggested it.

Thanks . . .glad I checked in first.

Get your horse in front of the cart, MMM...

Don't take omens to tell you what you're committed to...choose your goals and act from them.

In times of crisis, we forget this--I understand you choosing to believe that wanting to educate your spouse is a sign you aren't read to reconcile...it isn't. It's a sign, like any human may take, that you wish fervently to not have done what you've done, to get a do-over, to share what you're learning with the most important person in the world to you--your partner.

Make your goal to recovery your marriage...see your act at getting Lovebusters as step in that plan; reading it. Get aligned that your choice to recover is solely your own--no matter what he thinks, feels, believes, what he perceives or views doesn't change your choice.

Do it, anyway.

(You can look up the Paradoxical Commandments to help you keep that darn horse in front of the cart, when you need it, 'k? It's where my screen name comes from.)

LA

Hi LA

I don't think I can do this -- I can't put myself out there only to get rejected by him.

Nothing I do to reach out is going to mean anything to him -- he hasn't initiated any contact in the 5 months that he has been gone. He has no desire to reconcile.

I think divorce is our only option.

MMM, you are stronger than you know. I don't doubt you can do this. Not for one second.

Know why? Because you're experiencing deep rejection because you're doing it to yourself...and have been all your life. He's your spouse, your partner, the one who knows you best, warts and all.

You are choosing to psyche yourself out...with DJs. You don't know what he will or won't do, feel, think or believe. No one does. We are new every day. He talked to you when you called before...call now. To hear his voice, remember it's tendril inside your heart...know that fighting for your commitment is NOT based on your fear or your feelings--it's based on your choice. A choice.

You're worth every brave act you take--and when you act from your choice to fight for your marriage, you will realize you can do anything. You are goal-oriented...you strive to achieve. This is no different. For all that you've done abusively, so can you in healthy actions and choices. And in the journey is your redemption.

No other way. You will repeat again and again...I'm sorry, it's true. God doesn't stand by...he'll bring us to what we didn't learn, didn't make our top priority, even when we are drowning in our own fear and rejection.

You can learn to love your H in a new, mind-blowing way, from acting your love...and so you find you will love yourself truly and well in that same process.

If you don't call each day for five minutes, to listen, share a little...not expect or demand, you will continue to live as a slave to others--basing your own choices on their possible response. A continued life of manipulation, control and abandonment...permanent rejection.

All along, not a thing wrong with you--NOTHING to reject in you...as whole, complete, marvelously made OF love as I am...all of are...equal to everyone. Your self-image wants to push away your past actions so it can continue to give you a life experience of being who you really are not.

Do better for yourself...write letters...learn...go to counseling...and CONNECT...so you can experience abundance connection, acceptance and joy. Instead of the mortifying hum of rejection. You're living in fantasy right now...you don't know his stuff at all...you're assuming. That's the roughest part of extreme fantasy...

Live free and in reality, MMM...your choice. Shine as you were meant to shine, woman. Let go the outcome...you have never and will never control it...understand that. What YOU choose to do is what gives you your own results...your experience of living in abundant love, acceptance, honesty, consideration and respect.

Not him.

LA

Hi LA:

I left my husband a voicemail yesterday about the car renewal registration I received for the car he is driving. I said I didn't know what he wanted to do about the joint ownership. (Both of our cars are jointly owned).

He did not return my call but wrote back the following in an email:

I think the best thing would be to send me the "renewal paperwork" you mentioned. I'm going to get rid of the p.o. box soon, so you can send the stuff to {his new address}. As far as whether to continue joint ownership, etc., do you have an opinion on the matter? I suppose it might be advantageous to take me off {car 1} and you off (car 2), but if you have a different outlook, that's fine. Let me know.

So I need to formulate a response. Here is something I wrote up -- am I still off the mark?

I will send you the renewal form. As for the joint ownership, I'm not sure what to do.


I just want you to know that I am choosing to stand for our marriage. . .however long it takes. I have been reading A LOT about emotional and verbal abuse and how spouses get to the point of no return. I didn't realize what I was doing all those years was abusive . .how hurt you must feel. I know you don't want to dredge up the past and neither do I -- reliving how much I hurt you is painful for me as well.


So I am taking this separation as a time to work on me. . .no more angry outbursts, listening intently to what people say, letting go of being right, taking people at their word and not projecting my filter onto them, not interupting. My defenses are down and the "hurt or be hurt" mentality is gone too.


That person that you lived with is gone. . .someone I never wanted to be in the first place. . . a bully and controlling. . .I don't act like that anymore. . . .and it feels good to take a step back and let the love and gratitude in my heart flow out to my loved ones. All those behaviors were simply bad habits that needed to be broken many years ago.


I would love to see your face and hear your voice again but I know you are reluctant to let me in -- I understand that and respect your decision.


So, I will be here. . .getting stronger every day . . ready to be the understanding and loving wife that will be there for you through thick and thin.

Update:

Instead of sending above email (see previous post), I decided to call my H. I woke him up . . apparently he hit his head and thinks he has a concussion. Said he's been sleeping pretty much the last two days.

We had a good conversation -- I tried to keep it light -- I entertained him with stories of the last few weeks (me getting attacked by yellow jackets and a mouse hitting my Grandma in the face, etc.). We laughed -- he thinks it is funny that I signed up for a dance class at the local community college. Said he wanted to hear more about it after it starts. I even tried to end the call this time (didn't want to wear out my welcome) -- he asked about the joint ownership issue. I told him that given our current uncertain situation that I would prefer to leave it in joint ownership for now. He said "okay, send me the renewal form and I'll get it inspected."

After that, I let it drop. I asked if he would mind if I called later in the week to see how he is doing and he said "that's okay." I didn't call him by any pet names, or tell him I love him and how much I miss him. It was the first call I think that we had where neither one of us cried.

I don't want to read too much into it. . .but is this a good sign?

Your call was awesome...way to go, MMM. Great choice in making it. Good decision on the joint ownership/registration thingie.

I want to help you with your email in the previous post--not to send--I'm all for the ficticious...practicing is important to ourselves. For clarity.

First, I wanna hand some kudos to estranged hubby...look at his email first..."if you have a different outlook, let me know"...he says his stuff and is open to yours. He didn't assume...that you'd have a different outlook, or different thoughts...he shares in "I" statements and asks you for yours. Keep to that guideline for yourself (in your response):


I share this not to send, to see...where we are very subtle in our sneaky way of telling others what they think, feel, believe, perceive...even though at times they've told us...they may not feel, think, believe or perceive that way right now.

Have you considered making an amends list for H?

Thank you for choosing to stand for your marriage, MMM...I do remember the negative voice in my head urging, nagging, "Why do that if he won't think/feel/believe anyway?" That voice isn't yours...there are no shortcuts in growth. You are doing this.

Feel free to share whatever lights up your bulb in what you're reading about abuse...it's an important area and your thoughts matter.

What are your H's love languages? What are your own?

LA

Thanks for the encouragement -- not too many people in my life these days want me to pursue reconciliation. The people in my Christian support group and a few friends are the only ones who want it to work out.

I think you have mentioned this before. What would an amends list look like? 1)A list of all the specific things I did (I was jealous of the time you spend with your nephew) or 2)just in general (Many times I disrespected your relationship with your family).


It is a tough choice because of the fear of rejection. But I know deep in my heart, no matter how much I am hurting, that my H is the one I want to grow old with and the one I want to have a family with. Always have and always will.



Do you mean to share here on the forum or with my H?


I don't know. . where would I find a description of the love languages.

P.S. I sent a brief email to H this morning asking him if he felt better. Here is the email conversation:

Me: Are you feeling better today?
H: Yeah, I'm feeling better. I slept pretty soundly last night, and I think that helped.
Me: That's good to hear. . .I was getting a bit worried when you mentioned the nausea. Anyway, have a fun rest of the day at work. :o)
Him: I'm much more clear-headed today - kinda figured that would happen. Have fun doing whatever it is you're doing today, too.

You're welcome. We take encouragement, much like we take offense or blame. I like your choice in taking my posts as encouragement...they are my opinion and my experience.

How do you encourage yourself? You do understand others who love you want you out of pain asap, correct? For your pain affects them...they do hurt for you. And divorce isn't out of pain right now...it lasts and lasts...see the wishfulness in others and you'll see it better in yourself. Makes what they share about them--not encouraging or discouraging...what they wish for.

You have a goal, not a wish right now. Know the difference. You can widen your support groups, to include Alanon, too...and hear others share their choices right now.

Your marriage is in prayers and is what God wants. I think you already know that.

An amends list is specific (not for each instance of an LB) as you mention about the nephew. Doesn't stop there--says what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. Gets to your heart and ownership and then shares.

Helps you identify what pushed your buttons and to see what buttons you have...what permissions you gave yourself if they were pushed...and helps you to move your buttons, too.

Doesn't excuse...it explains your thinking...and as most of us who've done this sort of inventory, we discover our stinkin' thinkin' when we look at our past actions. We hear those same answers and thoughts today, after doing the inventory, and realize why they are in our heads, where they came from, and not react to them.

You could choose to share here and with your H, too. I meant here.

My apology for perceiving you'd already read Gary Chapman's "Five Languages of Love" book. Great book, easy read...works well with Harley's ENs...helped me to see and identify those ENs from the perspective of love languages.

Thank you for including your email exchange. I see it as a Plan A email.

Being me--I'm going to point something out. I know you'll take it as you need it or not...parenting and partnering often overlap...our first experience of love is by being parented...so we learn to partner only after we've had years of expressing love in a parent/child relationship.

Parents worry...it's like praying for what you don't want...often, one of our parents were worriers and explained they did so because they loved...ergo, worry=love. It doesn't. Worry is a fantasy we choose to believe and sometimes, it replaces our acts of faith and respect.

I believe you wanted to express your care for his well-being. New language for your new changes, if you like: "I fear being separated and you being ill alone. I know you can handle sickness well."

I liked your good to hear response...good to know whether it's something you wanted to happen or not...good to know acknowledges being shared with.

Are you calling him today after work?

LA