Nowis,

How graphic do you want to be? I mean with your H. Let's run down a scenario and see if it fits. Then let's see if there are other scenario's that fit. Then discuss how to collect data to determine which if any are correct.

Scenario 1.

He knows you don't like sex with him (past interactions say that to him).

He knows you have had an A.

He knows you are now initiating sex and perhaps doing a few things you might not have done before.

What he does not know.
(a) If it is he who is in your mind when you have sex or is it OM.
(b) If you are just doing it out of guilt.
(c) If you have discovered sex is good and are just using him as a replacement for OM.
(d) If you only find it interesting IF you initiate and would not find it interesting if he did.

In short, he doesn't feel he measures up and does not want to rock the boat.

Another Scenario is;

He knows you had the affair.

He knows you found him inferior in the bed department and chose OM.

He knows that you want him to initiate but he won't out of "passive aggressive" response due to his internal anger.

Another scenario is:

He fears your rejection because you rejected him when he initiated and you further rejected him when you chose OM to have sex with.

I don't know if any of these scenario's is right, or perhaps the real reason is a combination. I do know if he is a normal guy, his self-confidence has taken a far larger blow than you realize.

So how do you find out what the situation really is? You talk with him frankly. You tell him what you like and don't like. You talk about your fantasies and if you would like to try some of them out with him. You express your desire that he initiate sometimes, but here is the catch. Why do you want him to initiate? He is willing to have sex on your time scale but you were not willing on his? Are they that different?

You perhaps talk frankly about being with OM and what you liked and did not like. This will hurt him, but if he starts to feel you are being really honest, then he may well trust that you do want to be with him, and this is not just a "mercy F***" (pardon my French).

Perhaps you talk about signals that you can use to tell one another when you are ready and willing to engage in sex. Start to develop those codes and shorthand I talked about. Perhaps develop an emotional intimacy by talking about physical intimacy.

Perhaps you develop a plan by going to a bookstore and buying something about sexual positions and examining and talking about it together. Perhaps trying out various things, so that SF becomes something beyond what you had before and/or what you did with OM before.

Do you see where I am going? Let's talk about this abit, but you need a strategy and a plan to obtain the information you seek. It may be a simple as setting him down and talking with him. He sounds like an honest man, and you will need him to be very honest with you, even if it hurts him to admit his fears.

I hope something I have said is of help here.

God Bless,

JL

Wow JL

I won't know which scenario it is until I talk to him I guess. When it's put down in writing like that it's quite horrible. Horrible truth. That's probably why it's so painful for him right?

I will talk to him tonight. Aargghh.... yuk....! You know what though, I want honesty any day over anything else. Elephants in rooms, lumps under carpets are awful.

We've never gone into details about the OM before. He has only asked me a few things; how many times did we meet? Where? Did I cuddle with him? Did I orgasm? That's been it.

So, I guess I have to go back to go forward. I was deluding myself, it seems. Thinking it would just fade away.

(The signals thing I remember when you talked about this before - an old married couple right?) We have not talked about the physical intimacy so I hope it would lead to emotional intimacy.

Gulp........ what's my strategy JL? I'm scared. I don't want to be back at the months following discovery. I don't want to hurt him again again. What to do with all the emotions?

Nowis,

My thinking is you don't go backwards, you go forwards. If I were putting words in your mouth, which I hope you realize I am not. I would probably say:


Dear, I have noticed that we only seem to have sex when I initiate. I don't mind initiating really but I worry because you don't. I want our marriage to be one where either of us can initiate in comfort and can even accept an occasional, No, if we are not up for it. I want you to be happy and comfortable with me, just as I want to be happy and comfortable with you.

I think you have noticed that I enjoy SF more with you, than in the past. The reason? I am learning what love really is and I am learning how to accept your love and show you love. However, what comes with my loving feelings are my concerns and worry.

I worry that you might feel you are being compared to OM.
I worry that you fear that I might find him better than you.
I worry that you feel you are not 'good enough'.
I worry that you think my enthusiasm is a transference from OM to you.
I worry that you don't know how ashamed I am for what I did.
I worry that you think this is simply "make up sex" and not because I desire you.
I worry that I am not reaching your heart as you have reached mine and I fear that while you enjoy the sex, you don't desire me.

In summary I worry at the harm I have caused you and the pain I have caused you and I need to know how to address it. Please don't tell me you weren't harmed or in pain, because I know you have loved me all along, and my betrayal had to hurt. What I need from you is honesty so that I can be more comfortable in this marriage and trying to show you how I have grown from my mistakes. In short, I need YOUR HELP, and that means I need to know what you are dealing with so that I can overcome what I have done."

I don't know if you want to say it this way, but the idea is not to attack or accuse, but to make this about the future, and about YOU. You see real men don't have "feelings" that can be hurt. Nope, Nada, NEVER. We don't. We do however have "egos" that can get hurt. They look suspiciously like feelings, they seem suspiciously like feelings, but the are NOT feelings. I mean us real men are like John Wayne...tough.

So does this make sense??? Part of the goal here is to use the events of the past as lessons for the future. You need to learn more about him so that you can be a better W in the future, but more importantly so you can be a happy W in the future.

You already know you sort of misread him in the past. You did not see the strength within him. That same strength is going to make it hard for him to open up to you and tell you what has hurt him so bad.

I will tell you his question about you having an orgasm, is telling. He wanted to know if OM pleased you and be definition if he was better. He could not bear to ask for more details, but he felt and probably feels that he failed you.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL

I read your response over a number of times. Hoping to have this conversation with him in an hour or so. He's busy right now....

Will let you know how it goes.

Big thanks.

Nowis,

Good luck.

JL

Hi JL

Did not manage to have talk last night. My H was not receptive to talking. This morning he asked if everything was okay. I said there are a few things we need to talk about. To which I got a sigh.

Guess it's not the right time. He is busy at work and we are in the process of selling/moving house. When he's in this 'Im too busy' mode it makes me want to 'check out'.

How about adding UA time to your schedule? You are making such amazing progress, don't want to disconnect now! Remember what JL says, that your H wants to make you happy. What do you two like to do for fun?

Thanks for the encouragement EO.

So, I put in a call to my H at work and said that I would really like spend some time with him this evening and talk. He said we definitely would tonight.

What do we like to do for fun? We haven't gone out and done anything for fun for a while. Tomorrow night we are going to a concert which I arranged so hopefully that will be good. We have good companionship but our interests can be quite different. I love yoga and the practice of that. He loves sailing. I read a lot, he finds it a chore. I have dry sense of humor, he is very slap stick. I love dancing until the wee hours and doesn't. It's not at all that we don't co-habit well or don't cross over. I think we just need to find some new things that are just for us. Let's face it too, the children tend to be a priority more than anything. UA time?

Yes, my H does want to make me happy - I know that for certain. A lot of the time it seems that I am the one saying that things aren't quite right can we sort them out. It just feels like I bring stuff up the whole time whilst he's happy to just be. Poor guy just wants a quiet life. It would be nice if I just didn't have any requests. Just fed up with myself that's all. Will let you know how the dreaded conversation goes.

Thank you for the nudge.

How about going sailing with him and bring your book?

Nowis,

You do know the words any man hates to hear don't you?

"We need to talk." When a man hears those words, he knows he is going to get a list of his failures, and usually he is right. Women don't talk to men when they are happy.

Definitely make this talk about you as we discussed. I am reminded of the old saying which I may have posted to you before.
He needs to understand that when you want to talk it is not always bad, it is not always about his failures, and it can be about something that is funny. When you have this talk, see if you can find a reason to smile or even laugh. It will help.

Now as for hobbies, I am sitting here looking at your main hobbies and wondering "Am I missing something?" It seems to me your main hobbies are perfect.

You said
Has it crossed your mind that you can read while sailing? You can even do some yoga while sailing or depending on the size of the boat, dock and do some yoga. You can definitely find quiet for meditaion while sailing.

I am sure he wants a quiet life. I am also sure if you two are selling an house and work is jammed up, then his focus is on these things. It is what us guys do. So make sure he has a beverage of his choice in his hand when you discuss things with him, and let him know that he does NOT have to do anything with regard to this discussion but think abit and provide some information. This is you working on yourself.

God Bless,

JL

"Darling can you get the jib?" "You're not tacking your side!!!".

"Sorry babe, I lost my page whilst looking for the sick bucket".

In the words of our 9 year old "puke city!"......

Seriously, thanks for the suggestion. I exaggerate for effect and it's nothing a dramamine cannot cure. Yes, I really ought to make an effort on that one.

Nowis,

Actually, go to a drug store and get "seasick" bands. They are elastic bands that look like sweat bands, that have a button them that presses on a nerve in your wrist. The do work. Our oldest used to get motion sickness something fierce. I took the family to Australia and out to the Great Barrier Reef. He was getting pretty green, we had him put them on, and he was fine for the rest of the trip.

Could be in his mind, could be real, but they seem to work and they are drug free, and relatively cheap.

God Bless,

JL

JL

So, we had the talk.

I started off by telling him that I am glad we're still together. I love him and hope and want the best for our relationship. I said I wanted our relationship to be nothing but honest, open and loving from now on. He appreciated that and wanted the same thing. He got a little tearful.

I asked if he was comfortable with me initiating SF. He said yes and no. Yes, because it was wonderful for him but no because all he keeps thinking about is that I was "trying again - it's effort for you and love shouldn't be such an effort". That I "don't really have those feelings and it could be insincere". He doesn't want me to, afterall these years, to continue to try to "manufacture feelings for him". "Can I truly believe you feel these feelings or are you just saying them". I told him to believe them because it is what I want and what I want to show and give to him. He says he finds this difficult right now. He doesn't want that at all. However, he will choose to believe it. (Suddenly, faking it until you make it seemed wrong). Although I'm not saying anything I don't truly feel or is not true to him.

So I asked about when we are making love and why he takes long to get to an erection - he never did before. How is he feeling? Is it something about me? Can I help or stop doing something? Is it about the A and sex? He said actually he doesn't struggle with the A sex. He got past this very quickly. He doesn't imagine anything, the other guy or have questions - he is just focused on me. However, he said maybe because of not having much SF he has "slowed down". Or maybe physically in the last year he has just "got slower". This change does not bother him. In fact, he feels better about it because then he can go for longer and, get this, "enjoy lovemaking with me for longer". He just wants to spend more time in SF and "having fun with it because it's never really been like that".

Okay, had my first or maybe second or third insecure thought..... do you think he met someone else? Honestly, apart from going away on business, he would not have the time. He's either with me or the children or talking on the phone or texting when we're not together.

Soooo, it's good right? I know he still loves and wants me. How do I not make it seem like I am trying hard. Maybe because it still is unnatural for me/us it seems fake? It's a huge turnaround so I understand why it is hard for him to believe or trust in, it seems.

Do we just have to get some months behind us and further down the road so it doesn't seem so new and unreal?

Your thoughts?

Thanks for the wrist band tip. Never heard of them. Happy to go drug free if it works. Will let you know.

Nowis,

Go back and read my earlier post to you about what he might fear. The things he worries about. "Fake it until you make it" is not faking. You could not and would not do it IF you did not want to, if you didn't know he needs this emotional closeness, and that you want the same thing. It is like taking vitamins. You may not like to but you know they are good for you.

Let's look at what he told you as I see it.

What do you think he means by this?

He thinks you have to TRY to love him, that you don't love him.
He thinks he is not making you happy, and that your "trying" will make you more unhappy.

Did you talk about him initiating SF? Did you tell him that you might like it if he did or would you like it if he did?

Are you seeing the lack of confidence he has? Do you see that although he loves you he will let you go. You really can leave anytime you want and he thinks you want to. Deep down that is what he fears.





First, message out of this is he needs real honest from you. Your A has made it hard for him to believe you. Your past with him has trained him, that you really don't care for him in the manner he does you. I am not trying to pick on you Nowis. He has no reason to believe or understand if or why things have changed.

Have you discussed with him your exploration of this site and what you have been learning? Have you talked with him about your change in perspective? Does he know how you see him now, versus a few months ago, a year ago, longer ago??? The man needs information.

Further, if you are still struggling with some things let him know. Ask for his help.

Then you stated
Stress will slow us down. Depression will slow us down. A physical issue can slow us down. I'm thinking he is suffering from stress and depression just a bit. I don't think you realize what it has taken for him to hang in there through all of this. He "knows" you didn't care for him, he "knows" you were strongly attracted to OM. What he doesn't know is how you are changing, how your perspective is changing, that he is in fact loved. I implore you to not lie to the man, but he probably needs some help. The cost has been high because he does love you.

You asked
Yes it is. Perhaps as I have already said you need to explain why he is seeing changes.


Oh YES! It takes time to change years of habits. This is all a process Nowis. It does take time.

It seems to me he is open to discussions with you. It seems to me he needs to hear of your worries about yourself and the marriage. It seems to me he needs to hear about your successes. But most of all you BOTH need to hear that you are loved...deeply loved by the very person you married. You both need to hear it, feel it, live it knowing you are both loved. You have no idea how powerful that can and will be. The odd thing is that this is not a faire tale, it can be real.

You are doing well. Your H seems to be open. You are loved. You need to realize you have been blessed.

God Bless,

JL

Nowisthemoment

Thank you for checking up on me. I saw your post on my thread and I thought I would respond here.

I have not been adding anything to your post lately because you are so blessed (and me too , I have been reading JL's advice to you) to be getting such excellent advice from JL.

All I can say is I certainly agree with what JL is telling you as I feel the same way regarding my spouse. JL has clearly articulated how a BS feels. You are in very good hands.

I have never dealt with JL before but I am really impressed with the quality and insight he provides. Listen to what he is saying is all I can suggest. He can guide you through these rough waters you are facing. He is leading you through the tough work you are going to have to do. And I think you can count on him to hold you accountable (and give you a kick in the butt when you need it).

Remember NOW IS THE MOMENT, this is your opportunity to turn things around. This is where (I assume) you have previously allowed yourself to check out. You are doing amazingly well, but breaking those old habits and stinky thinking is tough work. Keep posting as I think you have the momentum to make it work. But I suspect you have 2 - 4 years of habit breaking and trust building ahead of you.

As JL stated

Nowisthemoment - never give up. You are going to make it.

As far as my situation goes. My wife and I have been to the mediator. The paperwork for legal separation is being processed. I have moved out of the home as part of the separation agreement. Yet since I have been doing a Plan A, we have been in contact every day. Yesterday I heard her say for the first time that there may be a possibility for us to reconcile down the road.

She says she needs time to heal, and she is exhausted and cannot do the relationship any longer. So I will be looking forward to doing what you are doing. Repair the relationship and reconcile.

Our character is not developed in the easy times, it is developed in the tough times. I will need to remain disciplined.

I will be praying for God to work in me and my wife.

My plan is:
1) Become the best man I can be. I am currently looking into several retreats to attend and work on this. Make the changes I need to make
2) Do some travelling and perform some volunteer work, possibly Africa or Thailand
3) Remain faithful to my marriage vows, and try to reconcile.
4) Participate in a Marriage Builders weekend when we reconcile.
5) Keep reading and Keep Learning.

So keep the faith, hang in there, be focused, implement the changes you need to make, keep praying (we need all the help we can get).

I'm rooting for you.

JL



You have this absolutely right. I also said to my H that there is no way I would seek SF with him if this is not what I wanted and he agreed, no question. I guess what I do is take steps to get there. Think about him differently (change my thinking), dwell on those, as a result I feel differently toward him, want to be with him, want to show him love. It's a process and eventually I know it will not be this way all the time.

Yes, we talked about his initiating SF and he said he is more than happy to. He has held back because he was shocked at first. Then he didn't want to scare me away or overwhelm me. In addition, he said it was coming so frequently, he didn't have to ask! Now, he is unsure as to whether to initiate or not. I totally understand that I took away his confidence and, let's face it, it takes some serious love to stick around with someone who has done that to them repeatedly. I said this to him and invited him to try.

He reiterated a few times that he wants us to stay open and honest. That if there is anything that is not working, I should say. We can work on it together. That the worst thing for me to do is retreat. He has hope all the time for us and "doesn't doubt, rightly or wrongly (or maybe I'm stupid) that we'll grow old together".



Yes, I told him about this site when I first started coming here. That was so he would know that I wasn't up to anything dodgy. I offered to him that he can read my posts but thought it would not be helpful to him. I told him I was sharing about my feelings on the marriage, being insulted..... lol, being encouraged and getting some serious help on how to. He said he wasn't interested. We have since talked about it and I told him I was still getting more help than I've ever had in my life and I'm happy about that. He said he had noticed a significant change in me and was glad for that. I said perhaps he could post if he feels he needs help and he said no.

For the first time last night, I shared about how my stinky thinking had me bound up and sabotaged me time and time again. I shared that I didn't respect him before and had a huge lightbulb moment on that. I respect and admire him now and it makes me love him. He said he had noticed this. That he feels that he is beginning to get respect from me where he never had it before. He asked whether I still thought of him as weak and I said no and why; loving me, staying with me after all the c**p we went through, caring for me. Making changes with the children etc. It's huge and I never saw him/it in that way before. He smiled.... like wow...... it's only taken 20 years!

I haven't told him about the faking it till you make it - I think bcboy warned me against doing that. I think that was right. As it is, he is hyper sensitive about my having to "try" to love him.

I realize every day how supremely lucky, blessed, fortunate I am to be given this chance again. When I got to MB I was truly at the end. I thought we were over. I had no hope but things are truly turning around. I still hold my breath all the time, get scared, but I just have to take it one day at a time. I want to be a year, 10 years, 20 years down the road, but it's a day at a time right now and one day (soon I hope) I'll stop counting.

bcboy

Glad to know you are okay. I'm amazed how much strength you have, honestly. When the fall out came with my H following d-day - things were a huge emotional mess for months and there was no focus. I can't imagine having to apply principles and plan whilst in the middle of such a crisis. You are showing amazing strength.

Sounds like you are harnessing your situation as much as you can. It seems like discipline and focus are the key in the situations that we find ourselves. Then you have hope which is so good. How did you not lose it?

Your plan sounds great. So you really do kind of live separate lives huh?

Well, 'm rooting for you too. I am inspired by your positivity, tenacity, focus, and, of course, encouragement. Thank you and, if nothing else, I'm glad you can benefit from JL's wisdom and my thread.

Thank you for your kind words. It is nice to get some encouragement these days. I am getting a lot out of JLs posts as he is describing how I am feeling right now. A relationship meltdown is very much like being in a car crash. Except I think you recover quicker from a car crash. Everyone gets hurt to different degrees.

I would like to reconcile with my wife but she has mentally left the relatioship 4 years ago (she is a good actor) and now we are physically separated. Very sad. This happened as our last child left for college.

Right now I am feeling rather discouraged and get that knife in my chest feeling as she informed me today that she cannot guarantee me that she will not date. I was trying to get her to date exclusivly until we could patch things up, but I think she is in a fog, and I am beginning to think she has no intention of returning to the M. I don't know for sure, but I am beginning to get the feeling she is trying to keep me on the string as a backup plan incase she cannot find someone more suitable to her.

We fall into a similar category as many here have described. I retreat to my cave and process things (I am an analytic and rational) she is intuitive and more emotional. She tells me she percieves and thinks in pictures and cannot put them in words. She has a hard time relating to me because I am "too rational" . Sad does not describe how it makes me feel to watch a 31 year marriage disintegrate before my eyes, and I cannot stop it, she is the moving party right now.

So be thankful that you have rescued your relationship from the brink of disaster. You have made some incredible progress and that bodes well for your future. You have a long road ahead of you, I pray that God will give you wisdom and strength to follow through with your recovery. It will not all be easy. JL is nudging you along toward the hard work.

Good luck and God Bless, and thanks for caring.

BCB,

You are a decade behind me in life and you are going through something far harder than I have had to go through. I admire you greatly. I like your list of things to do. I don't know where you are in your career, but going out and doing something else and certainly helping others less fortunate will change you in ways that will make your W hardly recognize you.

I would strongly recommend that you talk to your W about not dating while separated. If she really wants to do that, then divorce first. Over the years many people have made a complete mess of things dating while separated. Your perspective is right, she wants her cake and eat it too. Further, it is very unfair to whomever she may date because she is not free to marry.

You have not said (or at least I don't recall) what your children think of this but I would guess they are not happy. I hope that they are of support for you. I also think that as you address your issues and your W learns that the grass is always greener...where you water it, that there may be hope. 31 years is alot of shared life.

Yet, I think you have a lot of life and adventures to share with someone. I think your focus on yourself, you idea of expanding your life horizons will serve you well.

I wish there was something I could say or do to help your situation.

God Bless,

JL