So if I understand what you are saying is you think marriage is like a pair of socks, you can change anytime you feel a little uncomfortable. I think the intent of this site is gathering people who are trying to instill some dedication and sanctity to marriage. There is a significant amount of damage and anquish when a relationship breaks down. There is significant benefit to exploring, examining, discussing, resolving the issues that are causing relationship difficulty.

If you have read the progression of posts you will notice that the feelings are beginning to change. If you look at the posts from Just Learning you will see that perception can inhibit the bonding in the relationship. Perception is worth changing in this case as she has realized what a good guy she has for a husband and has remorse for her actions.

I have to admire Nowisthemoment for showing maturity and doing the hard work of making the changes and repairing the damage. The easy route is to bail out.

By not bailing she is respecting her children, her husband and herself. By changing her perception she is starting to enjoy (I think) SF. To think you exit a relationship just because one area of the relationship needs some work seems to play into the common philosophy of our disposable society. No relationship is perfect and they all need work, and from what I have seen this site is dedicated to encouraging people to work on the relationship not run away.

Yes, that's precisely what I said. Thanks for clarifying. That's why I'm here discussing marriage and that's why the energy I've put into making my marriage good could power a small town. I appreciate your wisdom.

JL

I think I'm struggling a bit. I have tried not to analyze anything but 'feel' what's going on instead. H is beyond busy at work etc so things are a bit stressful right now. Been positive in my thinking and vigilant about the old habits returning. However, I'm not feeling good - I'm disconnected. My H is happy with the SF I'm giving him but I'm emptying right now. What's happening?



One thing that comes to mind. Maybe I just need a higher level of attention from him than I'm getting and not just in the bedroom.

nowis, I see this as huge progress. You used to not want to spend time with him, or even want him to do nice things from you. I think that sounds like State of Withdrawal, what do yu think? but then your behavior changes leaded to an attitude shift, where you see that there are lots of ways that you want to share love with your H. Do you have the book SAA? It goes into more detail on the Basic Concepts on the website, shows you how to make a fulfilling marriage together. What do you think?

Nowis,

You stated
Perhaps you are right. Discuss this with him. However, NOWIS, iF he is working hard, he is doing if for you and the family. You are in fact getting his attention in ways you have not to date really appreciated.

I cannot speak for most men, but I think that us guys offer "attention" in several ways. One obviously SF is most of ours primarily way to bond "EMOTIONALLY", remember SF is an emotional need, not just a physical one. But, the other way we bond is by being a contributing part of a family. If its baseball, and I am the second baseman, my job is to contribute to the time by being a great fielder and making no errors, and I just may need to be decent with the "stick" at the plate.

If I am a offensive tackle, my job is to make holes for the running back and protect the quaterback. Incidently, do you realize that offensive linemen in football play the only position in sports that does NOT have any statistics. There really is no measure of their success other than winning.

My point? Your H is part of your team/marriage. His role is to work hard and support and protect the family. He cannot do this and won't do this without the family on his mind. Now you may require other things from him, but you should appreciate some of the things he is doing. You have his attention, it comes in the form of his going to work, and supporting you and the family to the best of his abilities. He is NOT disconnected from you. But, you are disconnected from him. Why is that??

Do you think that when he walks out the door, that he forgets you? Do you think he walks out the door you forget him? Do you think his going to work is disconnected from his commitments to you and your family?

I realize I am a guy and I don't see things as many women do, but realize this in his mind you two are connected while he is at work. You two would be connected if he were stationed overseas in a combat zone. You two would be connected if he were a prisoner of war. At least in his mind you would be.

He has offered no evidence, words, nor actions that suggest that you are not on his mind. So why isn't he on your mind?

It seems to me that is the question. You have children, I don't recall if you work outside of the home or not, but either way you are working...hard. Why do you do that? It is because of the connections. Don't focus on the trees of your everyday life to the loss of the big picture that you two lead your lives to support one another on many levels in many ways.

Please think about this and let's us and others discuss it.

God Bless,

JL

Yes JL he does. He tells me he thinks about me during the day. He says he is happy with us and the family. He has what he wants and needs. He senses my discontent but doesn't know how to help me. He says I have too high expectations or he he has too low expectations because he is content. "I don't know how to romance you - should I just buy you stuff". I said "you are way off, it's not about stuff". To me this says, "he's normal and is satisfied and I'm abnormal and still not satisfied".

I told him that I would like undivided attention. Even if I could see that he was making an effort to enhance our relationship on a normal routine basis it would make me happy. Just like he stepped up with parenting and helping around the house. I would like even just 7 hrs per week just for us. Dr Harley says otherwise it is impossible to meet each other's most important needs. How else can I cultivate more intimacy with him, romance, love etc outside of the bill paying and laundry. I can keep giving in the SF department and enjoy that aspect of giving but am emptying fast.

Should I be only deriving fulfillment, SF and intimacy from the fact that he goes to work and provides for us, from him being a good father, from him being practical around the house?

Should I be like him and just be happy with what we have?

He makes me feel as though there is something wrong with me to need more when he is happy. He said that I am looking to him for my happiness and that places the responsibility on him. I don't believe I'm doing this. I see this as him not wanting to work on this for me. We're going back to the way it used to be. Thing is, I could make a life for myself doing the things that specifically make me happy and they wouldn't include him. However, this is not what I want. It leaves a huge husband shaped hole in my life. I want an intimate and rock solid relationship with him.

"This is okay for me, why isn't it enough for you". That's what he said. I guess his needs are being met and they are fairly simple.

So, am I getting it wrong? Am I looking at this in the wrong way and still not connecting the dots? Is it me? Please tell me how to get this straight.

I don't want this relationship to be the way that it was before. If I'm getting it wrong, I want to know. I know he has shown me great love by staying with me after everything I put him through. I don't want to bring unnecessary pressure or drama to the relationship.

Is it crud thinking on my part?

I know this probably all sounds pretty dumb but ...... well, you know...

Sometimes men need specific help. They simply may not be able to think as abstractly as you need, to understand what love would look like to you. "Hon, you know what would fill up my love bucket? If you were to pay attention to my moods, and be able to realize when I'm sad, or tired, or angry, or needing affection. If you need help with that, I'll be happy to point things out. If you were able to do that, and react accordingly, it would make me feel so excited and loving to you I wouldn't know what to do."

Catperson

Okay, I'm not way off then.

Shall I write a list and give it to him? Too clinical? Over kill? As much as I know people are no mind readers, would it be better than having to tell him or ask all the time?

I would definitely only bring one item up, as it seems appropriate to the moment. If you witness an accident, talk about how you'd like him to 'rescue' you. Stuff like that.

Okay I will work on this. One thing at a time.

It's things like; I know we have no time but maybe we can take a half hour walk by the ocean after dinner. If you could come home half an hour earlier once this week just to hang out with me. Would be great if we could cook a meal together once or twice a month. You know it would be nice if we could read a book together that interests us both. Buy me a magazine sometimes you think might interest me. You know I love to dance, do you think we could go occasionally?

I have a list don't I ...lol. It's not all the obvious romantic stuff like candle lit baths, meals etc (although we have tried it in the past - not successful). Maybe we'll get back to that one day as it's not that I don't want it - it was an uncomfortable past.

Thing is, he knows I like this stuff but never seems to think of me in those terms.

Thank you

Well for crying out loud give the guy a list. While you are at it make one the rest of us guys can follow. WOW does your husband sound like a typical guy. I know I know somehow by majic we (Guys) are supposed to KNOW intuitively what you need / want. IMHO many of us guys are baffled by that. If you came with an instruction manual that said:

October 1
- in the morning make her favourite coffee and take it to her before leaving and say "I was just thinking of you". Kiss her on the cheek and tell her when you will be home.
-evening - stop off at the store and pick up bundle of flowers

October 2 - Compliment her on how beutiful she is.
- Hand write a card and leave it by her plate.

This may be a revenue opportunity for someone. I think there is a market for this stuff. I do not intuitively think about these things. Instead I am thinking about:

1) Man o man I am behind. How do I respond to those 150 emails waiting for me
2) Oh nuts - The Director wants that report by noon tomorrow. Maybe I can get that done after dinner
3) If I don't get that report done he will kick me around the block
4) This being short staffed is putting a real strain on everybody I just wished they would hurry up and hire someone, I can't keep this pace up much longer.
5) I better keep my thoughts to myself if they hear me complaining they will think I'm a wimp
6) Nuts it's 5:30 already, yikes I need to get going home for supper. Oh right I better try to think of something thoughful so she knows I care about her. Hmmmmm - what to do ; what to do???? Oh where did I put that instruction manual that will tell me what to do today. I like to score points with my wife. Sure takes the pressure off now that I picked up that manual.
7) Whew that manual is sure saving my bacon. How on earth can they expect a guy to be one of those sensitive, thoughful, intuitive types? Hmmmmm I wonder if they give classes on that? Or better yet maybe I can get the updated instruction manual.

Please, Please, Please understand that none of this (for most of us guys) is not intentional. We really don't naturally think of this stuff, possibly just like you don't memorize the sports scores and update your husband on his progress in the football pool.

Someone suggested giving him / coaching him one idea at a time. GOOD IDEA.

Regarding SF. IMHO if you are doing well in that department most husbands are going to think that things are going pretty well. No wonder he is saying he is happy with the way things are going.

So publish the blasted manual and give it to him. He has already told you he is feeling the pressure of trying to please you. JL has told you that guys are nervous about dropping the ball in that way.

If you don't want to publish the manual then at least tell him the things he can do for you that will make you happy. Do you know? Does it change? Now if it changes then that just makes it really confusing and if you are expecting us guys to switch up the pattern then that is just mean.

Good luck

So JL hits another one out of the park.

JL has articulated very well how many of us guys think and feel. We go out there everyday to work because of LOVE. We do CARE. This is how we do it. It may seem old fashioned but in many of our minds to PROVIDE for the family, to PROTECT the family, is how we show our love for the family.

Please read and understand this post. This has incredible insight and you really need to memorize, understand and appreciate what JL is saying here. I hope this is not copywritten cause I'm sending it to a friend of mine.

JL I think you need to write a book.

bcboy,

You area too kind. I am glad it is of help to you, and hope it helps Nowis.

NOWIS,

I have thought about what Cat said to you. I have heard for years here that men are so much simpler than women, that we are not as complex, that we are black and white. I have thought about this for a long time, and I really want to disagree.

Nowis, if you need things from your H ask him. But, unless he owns the company or he is as high as he can go, asking him to come home earlier is going to be an LB.

I think giving him your whole list is better than, "here is a hoop for you to jump through dear. Excellent, you did great dear here is another hoop to jump through dear. Excellent you did great and I am feeling better, here is another hoop for you to jump through dear. Excellent..." Now I may be wrong, but I personally would get really tired of jumping through hoops in what seems a never ending, never satisfying series of things I must accomplish to make my W happy.

I would strongly feel this way if I had hung in there through the devastation, humiliation, the disrespect of an affair, as your H has done.

To address what Cat said, I am not blaming Cat for saying this either because one hears it alot on MB and even more in real life. There is a prevailing asssumption that if someone doesn't say something or need to talk about issues that they are either too dumb to understand the issues or they don't care. It seems women judge men this way regularly. I have been judged this way in real life and even on this board.

You would not believe the number of times women have thought I was a woman posting, it is why up front I mention I am a male. Why do they think I am a woman? I guess because I "talk" on this site about feelings and such.

The reality is men do think about feelings and rarely see things in black and white. When they are mad they see things in ICE COLD terms or raving red, but other times they see far more than they ever remark on. Men are notoriously good at compartmentalizing. Some actually several people have posted the results of a study that shows that men think about sex roughly every 10 seconds. I am not sure of that number but it has validity. So how do they get things done??? Focus and compartmentalization. Just the opposite of a multitasking mother of children.

Your H sees things in you that you don't even recognize. IN the deepest pain of his life, he saw things in you that you don't recognize yet. You want more from him, fine ask him for them. But, never and I mean never make the mistake of believing that he is black and white nor not seeing things about you. He has to make choices based on the hours of the day, the amount of money he earns. I would bet good money if he had a lot of money, he would much rather spend time with you and the family than work at a JOB.

The one disadvantage men have is discussing feelings. It is not how we were brought up, hence we don't have the speech patterns, the vocabulary, nor the intonation to reflect what we feel. Women spend their lives developing these things.

But, watch two close male friends, listen carefully and it is likely you still miss what is being communicated. We develop our own language. I have buddies from the military, that when we go somewhere there is little conversation and what their is joking, and put downs. But, these guys would die for me and I would die for them. When one of them was having marriage problems, we listened to the whole story.

Our comments: That sucks, you want another beer?? Doesn't sound very sympathetic does it? But, what it conveyed was when you are ready let me know what you need, when you need it, where you need it, and I have got your back.

I am telling you this because you seem to be looking for things in your H, that are there but not in the form you seem to be able to recognize. The "manly" man you had the affair with isn't even close to the right guy, but the guy that is and you are married to, you cannot seem to be happy with.

Nowis, there is nothing wrong with your thinking, what is wrong is your perception of things. You were the one complaining that he was not a "strong enough man", that "he wasn't aggressive enough", wasn't "manly" enough when you came here, but with that stereotype comes a man that WILL NOT meet your needs unless there is something in there for him, and would leave your and your family high and dry after an affair by you.

YOu really need to sort out a few things. I know your H isn't perfect. But, I know what kind of man endures what he has, what BCB is going through. I know what type of PERSON sticks with their marriage after an affair, and they are not fools nor are they weak.

Your H cannot focus on work, focus on you, focus on your children and then come up with ideas to make you feel better than you do. If you want certain actions, ask for them.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL and Nowis

I am not trying to hijack this post. And I am not trying to blow smoke at you either. It is like you are crawling around in my head putting down in words, my thoughts.

OK so I just gotta know one thing. How did you learn to connect with your feelings?
My wife feels I am disconnected. She may be right. I learned to compartmentalize too well. I was volunteer police, volunteer ambulance in a small town. I saw many horrific sites, drunks hitting station wagons full of kids, to stop from going crazy I learned to disconnect from how I was feeling.

Now I gotta know how to reconnect.
How did you do it?
How did you get the insight to feelings you have?


I talk to a lot of guys and you are right. We don't talk about our feelings. But for my buddies I would crawl across broken glass. I love my wife. I went to work and did everthing I thought a loyal loving husband was supposed to do, and I still get kicked to the curb.

Do I want to meet her emotional needs? Absolutely. Do I know how to do that? Not well. I am clumbsy at best. Man if you can answer this stuff I can get a bus load of guys and we will be down for the course in a day.

If appropriate I can start a new thread but you are really strikinig a cord with me. My wife has just suggested I order a book called "Disowned self". This emotion stuff is really tough to get a handle on. To be blunt I really suck at it. I used to have only one way of expressing emotion and that was anger. I saw that was hard on the family so I suppressed it. Anger turned inward leads to depression and I went through a bout of depression for a long time. I am in recovery but my wife feels I am just a shell of who I once was.

Man you hit the nail on the head when you talked about jumping through the hoops. That is exactly it. A never ending series of hoops. Good stuff. Good stuff. Your post really does get to the heart of how a guy feels/thinks/behaves.

I know this may not be MB stuff but it relates. I want a fulfilling marriage. How on earth does a guy (brought up to be like John Wayne) connect with his emotions?

Nowis can you relate this possibly to how your H is feeling? JL is so accurate when he is talking about perception. So often us guys think women just don't get it, we don't want to say anything cause who wants to cause a fight. Yikes this is getting scary as it is making a lot of sense to me.

Ok I may just be too easily swayed, but I agree with both cat and JL!

Here's the key:


IMHO, some men (not all!) *are* good, or at least adequate, at focusing on meeting their SO's ENs during the wooing period. They are focusing on the goal of acquiring a relationship or a certain stage in a relationship. Once that has been achieved (e.g., by getting married) then they turn their focus back to their career. The relationship has been achieved, that is now checked off. That doesn't mean they don't value their relationship, any more than if they had a goal of getting a motorcycle and then they got one. They could even be enthusiastic about spending time with the motorcycle, working on the motorcycle, if they know what to do.

Please don't be offended that I'm comparing a relationship to an object. I don't want to imply that a wife is just an object to be acquired. But I do think some men may follow a mental checklist: "Get a degree: check. Get a job: check. Get married: check. Get a house: check. Get that promotion: check. Get a better house: check. Get that next promotion: check. Get a boat: check."

Now, in working to get the promotion, they are in a sense partnering with their colleagues at work. That isn't to objectify their colleagues. They are partners in working for the success of the company. And they are partners with their spouse in working for the success of the marriage, the home, the kids if any, and jointly achieving the goals they see of the marriage: a nice home, getting the kids through school and into a nice college, that nice vacation, etc.

So this isn't intended to put down either spouse. And I think giving a specific list will be appreciated, if the recipient does want to please their spouse and is just at a loss. That can apply to men or women.

I used to get very frustrated when I wanted to talk to my H about something I was upset about, like from work. I felt like he just wasn't supportive, and was very cold and didn't care. One time I was in tears over something I was telling him about as we drove home. He said a couple of things that sounded to me like he was minimizing, and that just made me feel worse. When we got home, we sat in the car a few minutes with me crying, and then he just got out of the car and went inside! I couldn't believe he could be so heartless as to just get out of the car and walk away!

When I asked him later why he did that, he said that he'd tried to help me and it wasn't working, so he didn't know what else to do. I said, "What did you do that was trying to help?" and he said, "Well I said such-and-such" .. I don't know, something about how it wasn't that bad, or some suggestion for how to deal with it. I said, "But you weren't *touching* me! You didn't *hug* me!!!!!" See, that's what I wanted: a hug, a hand to hold, a literal shoulder to cry on.

I could see the lightbulb go off in his head. He *never* woulda thought of doing that! He was very very thankful that I'd told him something so specific and so do-able.

Touching is very NOT his thing. But now each and every time I'm upset, he says "come here" and gives me a hug.

Specific requests are good. Not because anyone is inept at anything in particular, but just because people can't read your mind, even more than you know.

I didn't think I was expecting H to read my mind. I was just under the impression that there were certain basic things that all humans would understand, and needing a hug was one of those. That was assuming that H operated under the same world view as I do. He doesn't. Something I thought was universal, was totally outside of his recognizable universe.

I think John Wayne is very attractive. Strong is attractive, loyal is attractive, hardworking is attractive. Like the song "Where have all the cowboys gone?".

With the hoops, can you detect a pattern? Do they seem to fit into one or a couple of the 5 Love Languages? They are: Words of Affirmation, Gifts, Acts of Service, Quality Time, and Physical Touch. It's a similar idea to the ENs. If you are speaking your love language but she speaks another love language, then the message isn't getting through. If you can detect a pattern in the endless series of hoops, get a handle on the underlying request, maybe you can break it down to just one or two or three manageable "hoops".

Nowisthemoment: Read through your whole thread....quite the transformation.

Extremely fortunate to have such a strong, decent person in your life.

Do you ever look at your H when he is sleeping? Just look at HIM?
...because one day he might NOT be there.

Love him.
...and for the love of all that's holy...^^^ get a GRIP!
or get a JOB.

Jayne

It is a moving target. When I try to affirm her, she seems me to want to help around the house. When I help around the house I am not doing exciting enough activities with her. When I try to arrange and activity she comes up with one she would prefer. But it seems her main complaint is I am emotionally distant.

Being loyal, hard working etc. seems to be taken for granted. I thought it would be appreciated.

My wife is dealing with issues of rejection from her childhood, and I think she thought I could fill the void. I don't think I am able. Very hard to know what to do to help her feel whole.

Thanks for the feedback

Nowis, UA time is a top EN of mine. I started planning things when my H didn't like to be around me, and wouldn't go. Like sitting on the back porch looking at the canal with a cup of hot tea, or taking a walk on the path around our development. I went, anyway. That was what I needed most, to take some time out to enjoy my life, whether H was willing to join me or not. I am so glad that I made that time a priority. An hour or two every day, a the rest on weekends. It was hard at first. It felt like there was too mcuh other stuff to do. Too much stuff to *enjoy my life*, reflect on what I am grateful for, like JL is asking you to do. No wonder I was stressed out.

H saw these things, they were things that he enjoyed, too, and he started to join me. My H was working a lot of hours back then, so I would do things in the morning, or on weekends. That's still my favorite UA time, before the kids wake up and the day gets busy. It works for us, because we are morning people. Other folks use the time after the kids go to bed. What are you and your H?

Nowis, a friend suggested to me last week to talk to God, in real detail, like as if I was talking to a friend. Hand Him my worries, describe them, why they worry me, what options I see. Not a new idea, but new that I have been consistent. I feel so much better, letting them go. Are you spiritual?

JL

This has put meat on the bones for me. Yes, I've heard plenty of times that men think simply and we need to spell it out for them but coming from you and bcboy in such a comprehensive way makes me doubt it no longer.

Thank you for your patience in answering my questions and doubts. I need to do ask them. I acknowledge that I honestly don't know some things. So, thank you.




So, my H and I talked about this briefly last night and I shared the above quotes with him. He said yes, absolutely right, that's how he feels. He is happy to try and meet my EN and I was to give him a list.

I WILL NOT make unreasonable demands but neither will I go silent and withdrawn. He does have a very responsible job managing the US side of the European based business. One thing I know, and am lucky to have, is his heart and willingness to try and meet my needs. We'll do it together. I do not want to destroy him or us again.

I realize how incredibly blessed I am to be here, still in this marriage, still being loved by this amazing man, starting over and changing me and my marriage when I really believed we were at the end.

Thank you JL