There is no way to justify an affair. No way to justify a revenge affair.

Whether there is a P or an R in front of the A. It still is an affair.

Two wrongs do not make a right, never has never will.

To try and find a reason to make having an affair acceptable is nothing more than what is said about how a WS is justifying their decision.

We see WS's use justification to avoid having to feel guilt for having an affair.

We claim a WS is in the fog when they try to justify.
A WS is then fog free when they admit their justification for having an affair was wrong.
Even a WS that was a BS first has to do the same.

We state that a BS is now a BS/WS after they had their RA.

Not being the first one to have an affair does not prevent the BS from becoming a WS.

To have an PA or RA was a choice. They can not be undone.

There were many options to take. The WS did not have to have a PA. The BS did not have to have a RA. They chose to do so.

They have to both own what they did.




Sometimes on a rare occasion a RA has caused the WS to end their affair. I can not remember this happening much.

When a RA has happened it has only caused double at the minimum of the pain and problems. Making recovery way more difficult then it would of have been.

I also have seen where the RA caused the BS to lose their moral high ground.

Why do you think a lot of WS's push their BS to have a RA? Simple, it is so the WS can get a level footing in their arguments with their BS.

Whenever a BS wants to get mad that the WS had a PA the WS gets to shut up the BS/WS with well you had one too.

Complete misapplication of what Plan B is supposed to be. It is not to allow the daily abuse to continue but to get away from it and stop it from happening. Plan B is standing up to your abuser and saying. "I will not take this any more!" It's changing the locks, moving to a new town if necessary and learning to use a gun when needed in order to protect yourself., It is an enforcement of an established boundary.

At the same time it leaves the door open for reconciliation after the affair is over and after the cheater meets certain requirements put in place by the BS. But the BS gets to set this criteria.

When a BS goes into Plan B it is not merely to wait for the affair to end, but to protect the BS from being abused further. It gives them a chance to rebuild their life without the WS and keep the kids safe from being exposed to the daily rub-it-in-your-face brutality that comes from an affair continuing after confrontation.

Plan A tries to WIN the WS back, Plan B lets go of the WS until and IF he/she gets it... While it is often hoped that going dark will make the WS get it and see what they are really losing, it is really just a way to stop the abuse.

And Intro, while I agree completely that those who KNOW about an affair and do NOTHING (Plan c?) are sacrificing their own integrity and I would bet that most will never recover because most women could never respect a whiner/crier/beggar/wimp who is unwilling to fight for her, I can't buy the argument that an RA is better than that. I think it might be different, but not better. Both not right...

While your RA might have in fact been the exact catalyst that at the time broke through the fog and caused your wife to end her affair, I would not say it has led to recovery by any stretch. Your RA said "I can be just as selfish and uncaring as you" and she also suddenly realized she might lose you for real. She was suddenly on board with trying to recover...But it was seeing what she stood to lose that changed her thinking, not that you "got some" too.

Mark

This part in bold is what concerns me about RA's. If you have never cheated, you never want to go down that road. It is true you lose a part of yourself. You will never completely respect yourself. You cannot go back, you cannot undo the damage both to yourself and your M.

so, if I lie to you and steal your money I can claim to have "integrity" because integrity is only contingent upon MY perception?

introvert. You know that is pure foolishness. Do you understand how wayward you sound with these goofy rationalizations?

Mark, that is one of the finest explanations of plan B I have ever read! Kudos.

Mel, I do not disagree with you much, but on this, I must. Integrity is personal to the individual and not a societal set of norms.

definition...

Integrity is the concept of basing of one's actions on an internally consistent framework of principles. Depth of principles and adherence of each level to the next are key factors. One is said to have integrity to the extent that everything one does is derived from the same core set of values. While those values may change, their consistency with each other and with the one's actions determine the degree of integrity.

If you so chose to do so, fine. It's not up to me to decide your integrity.

What am I rationalizing? I said the RA was wrong, but I still have integrity.

Does it bother you that YOU have NO say in where other's integrity begins and ends? Why do you have to be the be all end all of how other people view themselves? You are not an authoritive figure in my life...just so you know. Do you act this way with everyone in your life?

A very good interpretation of plan B....but you forgot the part of it that allows WS to continue screwing OP until they decide they want to come home. I could not do that ...I have too much integrity.

MEDC, I do see your point, but I would argue that the notion of lying and cheating as a "moral principle" is very debatable.

But you are correct that the definition of integrity is "adherence to ones own moral principles." So, if one DEFINES lying and cheating as their own "moral principle" then they would be practicing "INTEGRITY" when they lie and cheat.

Do you act this defensive with everyone in your life?

Mel, there are other more descriptive terms that I can think of for those that display no morals.
I also think another persons rights...thus their ability to claim integrity...end where my nose begins. I would imagine you share that view.

You betcha!

When someone tries to question my integrity...yes. Don't you?


Your unwillingness to answer the question speaks volumes....I'll take that as a "yes."

why get defensive over that? Integrity doesn't mean yuou are good or bad...just that you use a consistent set of standards to make decisions.

Character is something to get offeneded about!

I have a question for you, med....as well as Melody....


If you guys think that integrity is based on other people's views of yourself and your decisions....when exactly do you say "well, it's been enough time now, I guess I'll consider that person to have integrity now?"


In my case.....when exactly will you and Melody decide I have integrity? What is your timeline, and your pre-requisite for me to gain my integrity back? Will it never come back? Is every WS in this forum under some sort of timeline?

Consistent? I'm 33 years old, been in a relationship for 7 years, been completely faithful, until I had a knee-jerk reaction to my wife's adultery by having a ONS. Where is the consistency in that?

Perhaps English is a second language for you???? I already said to Mel I thought she was wrong and you right when it comes to integrity.

You are an argumentative little soul aren't you?

are you intentionally trying to prove Mel's point?

..."thus their ability to claim integrity...end where my nose begins."

Doesn't sound like you are 100% committed to either arument.

introvert, we already agreed with you. What is your beef?