gg, I see what you're saying, I truly do.

But I'm much more pragmatic than you. I don't believe in letting people use me, people who don't respect me. Do you think it's worth more to teach your kids to keep your word to a dishonest person, or to find the moral high ground in a harmful situation?

IMO, you're teaching your kids to be milquetoasts. To give up their own needs and happiness, all for the sake of being able to say 'they kept their word.'

Is that not pride more than the right thing to do?

To be able to say you kept your word? At whose expense? Your kids'?

I'm sorry, I love you, I think you're the tops, but here is where we disagree. Your need to be nice and respectful and respectable is harming your family. Your wife needs a swift kick in the a$$, by everyone. Look at what she's done to her oldest, because of her sick weaknesses based on her FOO issues.

YOU can fix this. But you have to grow a pair. Be the role model for the rest of the family. Teach them not to accept being disrespected. You're too nice for your own good - and your kids'.

cat

Thanks for your repy. I know you say stuff that you feel is in my best interest.

If I were to make a list of people on this board who I believed were STILL with their spouse because of their belief in the GOODNESS, deep down, of thier partner, you would be near the top my list. I feel that you always hang around because you see the Potential of your relationship, like a cutter sees the perfect diamond when you hand him a dirty uncut stone from the ground. I always thought you STILL see the person you MARRIED and not the person who the world (or in my case-me) slapped around, spat on and handed back to you.

I've always seen you as a person who DOESN'T see being in the SERVICE of others as something weak and unattractive but POWERFUL and LOVING.....a lot like my own mom was to her family and later to a husband with many many faults.

I admire the way youve put your husband FIRST many times when others on this board would be asking "Well, whats in it for ME?"

PS: i gotta tell you something. OUR MC, the one who insisted seeing my wife ALONE until he felt that she was READY to work on the marriage, asked US to come in together.....I always thought that I would be HAPPY to hear this news, but to tell you the truth, I'm scared he has BAD news for me, maybe news SHE is UNABLE OR UNWILLING to tell me alone.......I hope I'm just looking at the situation like a guy whos been trampled for a year....but I did a lot of praying tonight. I hope I'm wrong.
Nite.

PS But your post is FILLED with legitimate observations worth considering. I can read it and think about it MUCH more than if I had just read the standard "I'd kick her to the curb". I appreciate you making the EFFORT to take the much more TIME CONSUMING and thoughtful version of that same statement.

GG - So...what we've established for now is that you will practice leaving the room when she gets mean, and that for now you will test the recorder out on your own car. That seems like proactive changes to me. When you leave the room, it's best if she knows why. It's also best that she knows that you do want to discuss the matter with her, but after she has calmed down.

My contention is that if you don't do this, it's like putting a kid in the corner and not telling them why. They'll never learn. So, think about what you want to say when you do this, have some dialog ready, otherwise the treatment will continue. And...you will need to do this each and every time. This behavior has been going on for a long time now, and it is a habit that will not be easy for her to stop.

Make the appointment with the counselor for both of you to go. GG...as difficult as it is, you do need to be aware of everything - everything. There is no progress with the status quo, and it's time. It's not going to get any easier by waiting.

I really don't think you're going to know what to do with your life or your marriage until you find out what is going on with your wife, and I think that is something you know, deep down, may take effort and will likely go against your instinct of self preservation, but when it comes to a marriage in trouble, ignorance isn't bliss. In fact, I've seen time and time again here that issues historically come to a head at some point, and then an innocent spouse is often blindsided, unprepared, confused, and devastated - and sometimes not just emotionally - sometimes financially too. So, be brave for your kids, and forge ahead. Hoping you find nothing, or course. And if you do, remember that you have your mother, your kids, a good counselor, and friends here who care.

And I know we talked about this once before, but do you ever see yourself taking the initiative of talking privately with her friend and asking for her support, that you would like to reconcile with your wife and have worked very hard to improve things, but there is something causing her to hold back, something making your wife not to want to be happy again? You know what they say about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer?

GG,
Just a quick thought.
Your mom seems like a very kind and special woman. She's sooo much like my own grandmother who also has many tales that mirror the one's of your family.

What, if any, advise has your mother given to you regarding the current status of your marriage? Can she be objective enough to guide you toward what will truely make YOU happy? Does she know your wife enough to have some little part of what's working in her mind figured out?

I see that people are introducing the possibility of Plan B. It's a scary thought and one I don't see you participating in without a huge fight. Your tenacity and willingness to try are admirable. But, don't let your wife simply wipe her feet on you as she passes by.

Just curious--but what's your mom's advise?

I actually wasn't advocating kicking her to the curb. I know you want to keep her, and won't divorce, so I wasn't even thinking of advising you to leave. I was talking about reestablishing your position as the man of the house who won't take her crap any more. Who stands up to her. Quits trying to please her to get scraps from her. Is calm and respectful but forcefully talks her down every single time she disrespects you, and points out her rude behavior back at her, so that your kids can see you doing this.

If I had to guess, your son is like he is because (1) he's been spoiled and hasn't been expected to earn anything he gets, so he doesn't understand the concept; (2) his parents' relationship confuses and angers him and gives him absolutely no guidance on how to be a strong, upstanding young man, which makes him hate himself; and (3) being sent away to boarding school confirms his self-hatred - even his own parents didn't want him. Maybe you could sit down with him and repeat this, and see what he thinks.

btw, the reason I'm still with my H is because I'm afraid to leave, plain and simple. Sure, I love him, but he will never stop being negative to the core, and all I want out of life is to live without that dragging me down every.single.day.of.my.life. That, and I've been in debt my whole life and couldn't afford to live apart and raise a child. We'll see what happens next year when D18 goes to college.

Soolee

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I will get that recorder in the car by this weekend. I don't WANT to hear anything more negative about me or my marriage, but I NEED to hear it. I understand.

As far as having a talk with her toxic friend........whew....I don't know. I would like to think that she will hear how much I love her and WANT to make this work, BUT......she MAY react with repulsion or jealousy, knowing that her marriage and her husband both suck. Or WORSE....what if she IS in love with her....then she will SURELY use it against me. I think I need to find out for sure what her feelings are towards my wife. Then, maybe......

As far as TELLING my wife and standing up, I think I am starting to do that. Telling her she was a bully and that I won't stand for it anymore wasa something I wouldn't have done a while ago.

But, there is SO MUCH ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT in me its not even funny.
Thanks. HOpe you have a nice day.

Hmmm. I think it's your WIFE who has room for improvement. Please don't beat yourself up for being a great guy any (other) woman would kill for.

Do you think it's possible she wants you to divorce her, and she's doing everything possible to tick you off so you will? Or is just furious with you that you're so nice and won't divorce her, so she takes her anger out on you?

Fiori

I must have ESPN. Your pic looks EXACTLY like I had pictured an Italian from mass looking like.

Uh, my mom wants me to leave. She wants me to leave because she thinks that will wake my wife up. But I take her advice with a grain of salt.

First italian guys are Jesus in a lot of ways.

1. They live with their parents till they are in their thirties
2. They hand around with the same 12 guys all their lives
3. (Most pertinent) Their moms think they are God.

So, my mom tends to make me out to be better than I really am. I know that. I recognize motherly love when I hear it.

She LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVED my wife before all this hit. SHe loved that she was conservative with things, tight with money, not a partier, always clean and well dressed, great mom.

My wife, in return, LOOOOOOOVED my mom. She was ALWAYS respectful and giving. She remembered my moms birthday as well as my siblings. She got along real well with all of them. Thats why it hurts so much to go to my moms house now for get togethers WITHOUT her. My mom recently went to Italy. My wife, in the past would spend weeks helping her get it together, she would know WHEN she left and WHEN she returned. This time, my wife didn't even contact her to say goodbye. I really believe that IF my mom wasn't so protective of my heart, SHE would feel really hurt because my wife really was her favorite. And while I would like to paint a picture of my wife as uncaring about her relationship to my mom, I KNOW, down deep she misses her. The only thing that bugs me is that I know my wife feels like my mothers caring and doting had something to do with me being such a shadrool of a husband. And she may have a point.

But, I'm NOT that shadrool now. I just have to figure out how to make her see it. Thanks Fiori

As far as me being a doormat, I KNOW that wouldn't look attractive to my wife. Its a fine line between doormat and humble. I try to hit it every time, I don't always make it.

PS Thank you for the kind words about my mom. I know the suffering was universal in Italy at the time. I think thats why they came HERE and realized how LUCKY they were. And I think that it has a lot to do when OTHER people tell them how "suffering" they are.

You know, I've thought about this too, especially with her FOO issues. GG is no less Catholic than she is, but she doesn't seem to get that and is out of GG's spiritual loop. And heck - I shouldn't even bring up denomination. GG just plain seems the type that once he makes a promise, he keeps it, or at least tries his best to.

And, typically they say here to tell the spouse - "Hey - if you're trying to browbeat me into divorcing you, I will not be the one to initiate it. If that's what you want, you'll have to do it on your own - without my help or cooperation."

[b]f I had to guess, your son is like he is because (1) he's been spoiled and hasn't been expected to earn anything he gets, so he doesn't understand the concept; (2) his parents' relationship confuses and angers him and gives him absolutely no guidance on how to be a strong, upstanding young man, which makes him hate himself; and (3) being sent away to boarding school confirms his self-hatred - even his own parents didn't want him. Maybe you could sit down with him and repeat this, and see what he thinks.[/b]

That quote is like the ten commandments, they ring so true. You hit it on the nose with all three observations. I've brought up the part about boarding school in "conversations" with my wife. She accused me of saying it to make her feel bad because it was her idea. Again, right now, she wants to here NOTHING negative about her role in ANYTHING. I think if she does, even if she blows up, inside, it eats away at her resolve to stay hateful, angry and seperated. I've sat my boy down and apoligized for NOT taking into consideration his feelings of abandonment if he got sent away for school. I told him I understand how he could feel this way AND at the same time, I reminded him that it was his YEARS of poor grades that led to that decision.

My wife WAS very Catholic. WHile the church's stance on divorce was ALWAYS echoed in her beliefs, she HAS GOT TO HAVE wavered a bit on it. BUT, I could see WHY she would feel better if I filed for divorce. ANd subconsciencely, I can see her treating me badly as revenge for her unhappiness, hoping it would drive me into court. BUt, she would be dead wrong on that assumption. Even if that was the first time she was EVER wrong, which I'm sure thats how she sees it.

PS: There is NO WAY your hubby will EVER let you leave......he can't live without you, you know that, right??

[quote=Soolee]You know, I've thought about this too, especially with her FOO issues. GG is no less Catholic than she is, but she doesn't seem to get that and is out of GG's spiritual loop. And heck - I shouldn't even bring up denomination. GG just plain seems the type that once he makes a promise, he keeps it, or at least tries his best to.

And, typically they say here to tell the spouse - "Hey - if you're trying to browbeat me into divorcing you, I will not be the one to initiate it. If that's what you want, you'll have to do it on your own - without my help or cooperation." [/quote]



EXACTLY!

Well, then, you're doing the best you can with him. One thought, though, is that he might not understand why you stay with his mom. I've found that it helps my D18 when I explain what's going on with us, her parents, on delicate issues. Not so she can do anything, but so she won't have to make her own guesses as to why I stay, why Dad gets so angry, etc. I bet your son would appreciate a heart to heart with you about your marriage.

I'm a big believer that when people act badly to someone, it's not because they don't like that someone, it's because they don't like themselves. And not liking yourself is really all about fear. Assuming there's no affair, my guess is she hates herself for being in whatever position she feels she's in - doesn't have the guts to leave, thinks everyone hates her, has done something wrong and is ashamed of herself, whatever it is. And takes it out on you because you're the only safe person she can take it out on. Because she knows you'll never leave her. Even though she feels she deserves it.

Heh. you're probably right about that. Thanks for the laugh.

I was afraid you were mad at me for being so blunt or that I stepped over the line, cos you were answering everyone else's posts and not mine.

Hi Gabagool,

I respect your tenaciousness about not even considering divorce. Its rare to see, and my hats off to you. Its just that when someone is reporting the sort of blatant verbal abuse that you describe it's hard to know what to suggest.

Is your wife still attending counseling? You said that the counselor wanted to see both of you for a meeting. Perhaps that will be a positive thing?

My apologies if what I suggested sounded out of line. My father was horribly verbally abusive to my mom and us kids and it only got worse over time not better. His sense of entitlement grew and grew, until after we all left home he ended up speaking to no one because he thought we weren't deserving of his attention. I guess the descriptions of your wife's comments triggers some of those memories in me from that time.

You have a big heart, and I hope this can be worked out.

Ok, I'm curious...
what do you mean about my pic and ESPN? Do you think you've seen me on ESPN? Very confused I am!

*sidebar--My grandmother came through Ellis Island at the age of 2. She had rheumatic fever. If they were to have found out she would have been returned to the boat and not allowed to enter the country. So, her mother put her under her skirt and my grandmother hung on to her leg. She got through without any record of her coming through. My grandfather came through at the age of 13. He was Egiesto (spelling?) and the Americans could not pronounce it. So, he was dutifully changed to August, the month he crossed into our country. Very strange history, but very fascinating.

Happy

Thank you for your input. As long as the post is respectful, as yours was, I NEVER think a suggestion is out of line. Its just that I get a verbal but whipping for about a year now and I don't feel like getting abused on this site. BUt these guys who routinely help me are great. In fact, I can't imagine why they care so much.......


ANd as far as my bucking divorce goes....its not such a great thing. Its really quite selfish really, I will never give up what I have ALWAYS considered my ONE LUCKY BREAK IN LIFE, meeting my wife and having her like me enough to marry me. People show off stuff they have all the time. I USED to show her off.......I never want to give that up.

Fiori

You list your facebook on your post, don't ya? ANd that was a week attempt at humor. Espn.....you know.....ESP.....as in having a hunch what you looked like..............

Sorry.

What a great story. Such pain and hardship they all went through.

No GG,
I don't have a facebook. Actually, I do now...I just made it yesterday so I can sneak up on my 16 yr. old who seems obsessed. But, as for a Fiori facebook. NOT ME! But, I'm intrigued...

GG - How did it go this weekend? Were you able to hook up the recorder?

Just wondering how your weekend went.

Ok, GG...
Are you disappearing again? This is a habit of yours sir! And, then I worry about you, as I'm sure the others do too. Check in with us so we know you're ok.

And, I'm really curious exactly who's facebook you're looking at.