No, I haven't asked because I KNOW the answer. Its yes. I just think shes trying to get a running start. While her religion forbids it, she is trying to distance herself from her religion, it is obvious.

Even she may surprise you....just ask the question. It may be a starting point for a very necessary conversation.

I agree, GG. It isn't absolute. I think because it's between 2 human beings,and human beings are prone to screw up and hurt each other. Ideally, we remember that God was part of that union too, but in difficult times, we can forget that, certainly.

Let me ask you, do you feel that criticizing her parents may have contributed to how she feels about you now? Do you think it hurts her? Has it helped the relationship much, if at all?

I can remember going through a long period in our marriage where he and I would do the same thing to each other - talk poorly about each other's family, so you are not alone there. I finally came to a point of realization that it serves no purpose in our marriage to drive a wedge between my spouse and his FOO. Hearing negative things, even though true, were painful to him. It reminded him each time of his disappointment in them. It embarrassed him, deep down. Yet, there was always that strand of loyalty, that - when pushed too far, he would 'let me have it' with nasty things about my family, to 'call it even.' It was a vicious, painful cycle - for years.

Something happened at some point. I think I began to realize how painful it was for him and that his disappointment in them was no where near his disappointment in me for dragging him through that pain - not once - but over and over again - to what end?. I began to understand that he had no control over his family. They are who they are; their decisions are their own. His family, my family. It didn't matter who was being the more stupid because neither of us had any control over what they did, and they had their own minds to make their own decisions - which had no reflection on he or I as individuals.

I think it's human instinct in most cases to protect our FOOs. Kind of like lions in a pride. It is probably not an intellectual decision at all. It's just natural to protect, regardless of what kinds of FOOs we have. It probably has something to do with ensuring that the human race continues or something like that, you know? I don't think it's something that we consciously decide to do. It's just something that our inner selves tell us to do. Like when we throw our right arm across the front seat passenger when we come to an abrupt halt. Knee jerk.

Yeah. he and I still occasionally regress, but we don't get upset now. We don't usually argue. It's like - we shrug - with this attitude 'so, waddya want me to do about it?' and then I remember how it was and how I really, REALLY don't want to go back to that.

I think I must have asked myself what I was hoping to gain and somehow was able to gain some empathy for my husband when I was being critical of his family. It shamed me because I knew I wasn't raised to be like that. I was raised to find the good in people and dwell on that.

But...I think something happens when we live a long time with someone who has bad habits - like being critical. We wear off on each other, you know? And, not trying to blame him for my own behavior, but I honestly think some of his bad habits were turning into my bad habits. When I finally told him and showed him that I hadn't criticized his family in a long, long time, he began to back off too. The special FOO armour kind of dropped off. Fighting about it lost its purpose.

So...just some thoughts on that to roll around in your head.

I really think between now and that appointment, you should be good to yourself. Do things you enjoy. Fortify yourself with pleasurable things. Something funny on TV. A good meal. Etc.

Have a good night.

Thanks Soolee. Its good to know that someone with such acute insight can make mistakes also.

Uhm, when we FIRST married, I was VERY critical of her parents. For a few reasons. The first reason I was critical was because they DID NOT want her to marry an Italian. That hurt me. They said I would control and keep her TIED to the kitchen. SO I stressed NOT to be controlling (even though, now, in the fog she says I was) I was hurt and decided to show them.

The second reason was that I couldn't understand why a POLISH person would dislike an Italian. In my mind (remembering their comments about italians) I could not figure out how they could even COMPARE polish and italians. Think about it. FOOD? Please.
Culture? Are you serious? Music, literature, world dominance, architecture????????I mean, Italian had it ALL OVER THE POLISH and THEY HAD THE BALLZ to criticize US?

Well that way of thinking went on for a while. ANd in the meantime I began to learn about my new married into culture. The hardships they had. The bravery they showed when they were the ONLY ones with enough guts to face the Nazis. Their stoic nature. Their way of facing hardships WITHOUT emotional outburst, with class and pride. I began to see the beauty in what they were. I saw how, in every case, where the Italians dropped the ball, the Polish proved themselves able to carry on where an Italian would NOT be able to. I grew to respect them and be PROUD that my kids were half Polish.

ANd in her case, her poor view of Italian grew and grew. The more problems she had with me, she had with Italians. It ended up where I was faced with being called a [censored], a ginny, greaseball, [censored], mafioso, all kinds of hurtful names. I once sat there as her and her family talked about "stupid [censored] with their stupid slicked back hair and their stupid firebirds".... I usually LIKE Italian jokes IF I know the person telling them KNOW that they are JOKES. But in MY case, I wasn't so sure they weren't taking the jokes seriously.

So over the years, I respected her family more, learned to live with their shortcomings, and my wife became more and more annoyed with me, my family and my heritage. Up until NOW, even SHE admitted that I no longer said anything negative about her family.


Tonight, I had a dinner meeting with some perspective investors. My wife and youngest went to my Moms house for dinner. When I got home, we exchanged weak hellos. She said nothing. I went downstairs to the bat cave. I really hope my mom didn't try and plead my case. If I thought it would do any good, I'd be all for it, but it wouldn't do any good, AND perhaps be detrimental.
I've told my mom that I did NOT want her to say anything to my wife. I hope she avoided the temptation.

AND, surprise surprise, I need some advice. Tommorrow evening is the wake for the person I told you about. Today, my wife told me the wake time and said "You can come if you like" I told her, "I will come if you want me there" She said "its up to you." What do I do? I don't want to be there if she doesn't want me there.......... any advice? ANyone?

Thanks Soolee.

A good meal......man, I miss cooking a nice meal for just the two of us. I used to love it. As she pulled away from me, she gave me more and more guff whenever I wanted to put together a nice 3 or 4 course, the whole 9 yards, romantic meal. The excuses were always the same. She was too tired (uhm,,, I was cooking, serving and cleaning) It would cost too much, she was too busy, I cleaned like crap, etc, etc....After a while, she killed all desire for me to cook that meal. ANd if my heart wasn't into it, there would be NO LOVE in cooking it. Putting LOVE into what you are cooking is the SECRET to a great chef. It REALLY IS. Thats not just talk.

To me, cooking for her was really all about making love to her. I LOVED to feed her. LOVED it. I would have done it 3 times a day, 7 days a week if she would have let me. I mean, think about it....
Cooking for someone IS very very sensual. I mean, in what other capacity does my wife PUT SOMETHING of me into her body? I miss making love to my wife, number one. Number one A is cooking for her. When I did that, I felt like the most important, luckiest guy in the world..............why oh why do most people have to LOSE something BEFORE they can appreciate what they had????? GOd, I love that woman.

Ah, GG. I feel for you, really.

I am sure there are plenty of people in your family and/or your social circle who would give their right arm for a 4-5 course meal from your kitchen. I also know that isn't what you're talking about.

As far as the viewing, I would go. One of my many cousins died last week. I went to school with her son and was able to make him smile and tease him about teasing me in school. I felt it was worth the effort. My husband wanted to go with me. I assured him it wasn't necessary. I was going to meet other people there (my sisters and my parents) and I would not have been alone. He insisted, telling me that it was his place to be by my side. I thought that was nice.

He tells me that we don't go for the dead person, but for those that are left behind. So...when I go to these things - I go for that reason. This little lady whose viewing I went to - you wouldn't think she'd have such a huge viewing. GG - we had so much trouble getting in and out of that parking lot! Unbelievable. But...she had 3 kids - and they had partners/spouses and they had children, and relatives, friends, and people from their town who went just out of respect for those left behind - I swear my entire home town was there - really.

So...go. Lest it be one more thing she can hold against you. Do the right thing. Sign the guest book, shake hands with those in the receiving line, and drive your lovely wife home.

And...how do you feel about making simple things - Italian snacks like oh waddaya call it - the bread with the tomatoes and olives chopped on top, bruchetta or something? That stuff is awesome.

I read an article in our local paper the other day. This restaurant makes the big ravioli, you know the kind, I'm sure, where you only need maybe 3 for a serving. And then there's some other thing they make - It's a half-moon ravioli that looked interesting. I think it had olives and something else in it. If I can find it, I'll post the filling recipe so you can compare.

Anyway - have you ever tried making Polish things? Pierogi, halushki, potato pancakes? If I ever find my recipe for the potato pancakes, I'll post it.

Ah. Here we go...

He also says he uses both egg and water and also uses both semolina flour and all-purpose flour to give it extra strength and make it chewier.

Eggplant/Olive Caponata (Pasta filling)

1 medium eggplant
1 large zucchini
2 red peppers
1/2 cup good quality black olives, chopped
1/ cup Mascarpone cheese
1/2 cup Parmesan cheese
1/2 cup fresh basil
1 bulb roasted garlic
extra virgin olive oil
salt and pepper to taste

Trim top of garlic bulb to expose raw cloves and coat with olive oil. Roast at 350 degrees for approximately one hour in oven. If you do not have a special garlic roaster, you can put it on a baking sheet and over with tinfoil.

Cut eggplant and zucchini into half inch pieces. Brush with olive oil, season with salt and pepper to taste, and grill until just slightly firm. Allow to cool. Then dice.

Roast whole red peppers until they are soft, remove skin and dice.

Mix these vegetables in a bowl along with roughly chopped olives, basil, the roasted garlic (which can be easily pressed out of the skin) and the cheeses. use as a filling inside any basic pasta dough.

Anyway - I'm sure whatever you use is better - I just thought I'd throw it up here on the board for your reading pleasure. lol

Thank you for the recipe Soolee.

The filling is a variation of a sicilian sweet and sour eggplant relish. Sicily was ruled by Muslims for a while. From them they got their love for things sweet and sour. They combine sweet raisins with salty things like anchovies and olives. In fact Sicily has a varied cuisine because they've been ruled by so many different people. I always have sicilian eggplant relish at the restaurant. I'll stuff some fresh pasta and see. Thank you very much.

Well, I'm going to this meeting with my wife and her counselor in a few hours. I keep fighting the urge to hold out hope here. I so don't want to be dissappointed. I really hope I'm not crushed here, but I'm really sick of this situation not going anywhere either.

Last nights wake sucked too. It started off lousy because I made the mistake of saying that I think that we should look at spending around 15 grand for a new car to replace the car my son totaled. I THOUGHT I was being reasonable when you consider that the average car is around $20,000. She responded that it was a waste of money, looking at me like I was dirt, and said that she was looking at around $7,500........man, I think I'm starting to have an ugly realization that no matter HOW MUCH money I can manage to bring it, it will NEVER be enough to make her stop worrying about things......

We picked up her brother (the one that never has called me to offer his ear. He is also the one who lost his financee at the alter and we spent MANY nights till 3 in the morning talking about how he felt.) Well, my wife and him talked during the ride to the funeral parlor. The things they were talking about was stuff that a husband in a good marriage would know. It was obvious that my wife has not been talking to me about family events. I mean, I kinda knew that, but it still made me feel like a complete stranger. So I said nothing, trying not to listen. Once we arrived, my wife asked me if she had said something to hurt me, why wasn't I talking, and I told her why I was bothered. SHe wasn't happy. As usual.

When we got to the parlor, she got mad at me again because I don't act like a happy married couple. I just don't understand. SHe could give a rats [censored] about whether or not she ignores me in our home, but once out in public it bugs the heck out of her if I act like our marriage is in trouble. I tell her again and again. I act how I feel. ALWAYS HAVE. ALWAYS WILL. If she wants people to think we are getting along, well then, lets work at getting along. This infuriates her.

Tell you, I'm scared about tonight. I really am.

Oh yeah, while driving back, I got a call from an investor. We signed a lease on a new location. That makes 4. I should have been happy, but I was filled with doubt and trepidation.

I prayed to God to help me tonight. To not say something stupid that will turn her off. I was hoping, if a miracle happened we could go out for coffee or something if things went ok, but I just read her calendar and she has dinner with a couple of girlfriends. I gotta be strong. So many guys are going through so much worse than me right now.

"Last nights wake sucked too. It started off lousy because I made the mistake of saying that I think that we should look at spending around 15 grand for a new car to replace the car my son totaled. I THOUGHT I was being reasonable when you consider that the average car is around $20,000. She responded that it was a waste of money, looking at me like I was dirt, and said that she was looking at around $7,500........man, I think I'm starting to have an ugly realization that no matter HOW MUCH money I can manage to bring it, it will NEVER be enough to make her stop worrying about things......"

GG...or it could be that had you said $7,500, she would have said $5,000. Something tells me that would have been the case.

The only other way around that, that I can think of was for you to ask her thoughts first, and then contribute. It's hard to know what to say to people who have issues with everything. I'm sorry.

Good luck tonight. I hope you come out of it with hope.

Congratulations on the new acquisition.

Well

First meeting with counselor has come and gone. Have another scheduled with me in it. I really am seeing no purpose in this.
In a nutshell, she's pessimistic at the future. She's angry about the past and everytime the MC tried to point out something where she was seen in a negative light and I was seen as accomodating she said "yes, I see that, BUT I don't agree"

I found myself getting frustrated and tick off (though didn't really argue)

TOday, she's off for a hike with toxic friend and a group of others. I did a quick google seach for whether or not this was a singles group hike meeting (those are pretty popular around here) but nothing. I'm just out of her life at this point, and thats the way she wants it. (except she made it clear that she is always sticking her nose in my business BECAUSE my paycheck is very much apart of her life.

Just down right now. I really should try and talk with her, its just the other 3 or 4 times this past year I've attempted that its been a unmitigated disaster with me as a verbal punching bag.
And I just don't feel right leaving. Inside I hear GO, but religiously, I can't. If I expect her to keep her vows, how can I just up and leave??

Have a great weekend everbody.

PS. Soolee thanks for the congrats. If the lease can be hammered out, I can sink my efforts into it. Keep my mind off of things.

I wish I knew the right words for you,GG.

Today, it just seems like separating may be the only way that she's going to get shaken up enough to realize just how miserable she is making you, but that's a very personal decision.

Have you tried the recorder again lately?

"except she made it clear that she is always sticking her nose in my business BECAUSE my paycheck is very much apart of her life"

Can you help me understand this? How did she convey this?

"Just down right now. I really should try and talk with her, its just the other 3 or 4 times this past year I've attempted that its been a unmitigated disaster with me as a verbal punching bag."

Why don't you try, and remember what we said earlier about how to put a halt to that kind of behavior. The woman really does need to hear how you feel. Maybe you need to ask her if she'd like to separate - put it out there on the table - at least then you two wouldn't have to see each other on a day-to-day basis. Tell her that it's clear she has no genuine interest in working on the marriage, and you both have lives to live.

She's addicted to her own righteousness and anger, and it's destroying the marriage. Maybe she needs to know that much, at least.

Time to turn the financial spigot off.

You need to handle everything and let her achieve everything on her own. Failure will be humbling.

Well...it might certainly push her into a corner, that's for sure.

If she speaks money, maybe you will have to talk to her the same way.

We realize you couldn't care less about the money, GG...but obviously she does, and if the only way to get her to listen is to do something radical, (like a parent removes the ipod buds from a teenager's ears) maybe she'll listen.

Quote

She's addicted to her own righteousness and anger, and it's destroying the marriage

God, if that isn't it in a nutshell.

Again, missed your calling.....

Pariah

She wouldn't fail. She is one of the most capable people I have ever met. She doesn't need me in the least. ANd her father is well, well off.

But, youre right. From what I read, money is awfully important to a awful large group of people.

I don't know.

I've been going along, these last few days, just observing my wife. During that time I kept in mind that post stating that "she was addicted to her own anger".

We co exist. She is here because she KNOWS that I am NOT bad enough to justifiably leave. BUt she has no feelings left. In fact, every time I do anything, I have a feeling that she finds it annoying. I mean, if I laugh, I feel that she finds the WAY I laugh annoying. She sees me as a neccesary evil, like glasses. You WISH you didn't have them around, but you NEED them.

I can't deny that I adore her. I love her. I mean the words I said the day we got married MORE today than I did when I originally said them. But its been a year of total ignoring me. And about 5 years of not saying "I love you" and denying anything was wrong. Me trying to hold on to something that doesn't want to be here is not real loving.

She is afraid to make the move and leave. Religious reasons, family reasons, personal moral reasons. Its at a stand still. I think there really is only one thing left to do.

If I truly love her, I want to see her happy. The only way she will EVENTUALLY be happy is if I am far far away. The feelings are gone. They ain't coming back. For a few days now I've been going over in my head to leave. Make the move she is so afraid of making. I will have a good chunk of cash coming in soon. At this point, I really think I will give her that cash, let her have everything we own together, take my business and part ways. Leaving the woman you love is bad enough, I don't want to go away feeling guilty. If she liquidates, she won't have to worry about cash anymore. If she regrets it later, well, thats better than ME regretting it. ANd the door is ALWAYS opened. And I will always be married. I just can't go on like this much longer.

I wish she would allow me back, but its not gonna happen. I have to come to terms with it. But, I have to leave on a good note. I HAVE to leave knowing that I did my best. My dad was right. It takes SO MUCH MORE EFFORT to FIX something you did wrong. Just do it right THE FIRST TIME. I just don't think I have it in me anymore to always worry about what I will do to tick her off this time, any more.

So for the first time in a year, I will start putting together a plan to leave.

GG - I'm sorry. That was my statement, and I hate to think it was the straw. We will not hold you to this, of course, if you change your mind. Understandable that you're down right now, and when we're down we often say things that are fatalistic.

Of course, I understand why you are considering it at this point. Might I suggest that you not say anything until you've spoken to a very good lawyer and become very educated in the process in your state? Read up on how to help children through this sort of thing too, how to explain it, especially for your younger one? That might be a good idea.

I wish you well in anything you choose, and remember that if you change your mind, I can honestly say it's understandable.

And I do not think you need to be far away, GG. You're being emotional with that statement, and I understand. A separate living arrangement, maybe, but certainly not far away. You need to be near your kids, after all.

GG, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT reward her for her behavior, that is the absolute stupidest thing you could possibly do!

You want to lose what glimmer of respect she might have had buried?

Give her everything. She won't even so much as look back when she laughs and devours your soul.

You will NEED that money to succeed and get yourself a GOOD wife.

You need to cut that sinking ship loose and let it slip below the waves before she drags you to the bottom too.

yep

GG - I hope you won't be offended when I ask this, but are you sure this is not a passive aggressive approach of showing her that you think she's greedy? Do you care about that? Just wondering. I mean...I would understand completely if you didn't.

This is why I wonder if seeking legal counsel might be something to consider before you decide...

Giving her 'everything' may still not make her happy, so I wouldn't go into this with blinders on.