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You asked on the other thread if my priest explained that any catholic that votes for a candidate that supports abortion is committing a grave sin and should not receive communion.
No, he did not. He did mention abortion......and the death penalty and the poor and the war and several other issues that the catholic church take seriously. I am sure he (and the diocese) realize that if they threaten people and try to dictate who the congregation should vote for, they will loose a lot of parishoners.
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perhaps you missed that the church has already ruled on this. As I pointed out, the church has already stated that excommunication is the appropriate response to abortion supporters.
As far as losing parishioners, I do not think that the morals of the church should be changed in order to keep abortionists among the flock.
You are using words I did not use. The CHOICE to vote for a candidate is up to the voter. The DECISION to excommunicate those that support abortion has been made by the heads of the RCC. No one is dictating anything...you have a choice...be for abortion...or be for God. You can't have it both ways.
Last edited by medc; 09/07/08 08:47 PM.
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medc; perhaps you missed that the church has already ruled on this. As I pointed out, the church has already stated that excommunication is the appropriate response to abortion supporters.
As far as losing parishioners, I do not think that the morals of the church should be changed in order to keep abortionists among the flock.
You are using words I did not use. The CHOICE to vote for a candidate is up to the voter. The DECISION to excommunicate those that support abortion has been made by the heads of the RCC. No one is dictating anything...you have a choice...be for abortion...or be for God. You can't have it both ways. Sad thing is, they aren't acting on what they teach. If they started doing so, even with Politicians, they'd either lose members or people would start taking God serious.
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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Exactly right.
The Catholic Church is in such a bad position in this country because they have put their wallets ahead of their teachings. I see this every single day in my dealings with them and frankly it speaks to the lack of moral leadership in the U.S. churches. This issue has long been resolved by the heads of the church.
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Hey MEDC, I have quasi-related question (idea came from another thread). The RCC is against abortion because they view it as murder, which is one of the 10 commandments, correct? Why don't they take the same stance with adultery? Are the commandments ranked? I'm just looking for the answer, I'm not catholic so I don't know - so please don't anybody start this into anything.
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medc; The Catholic Church is in such a bad position in this country because they have put their wallets ahead of their teachings. I see this every single day in my dealings with them and frankly it speaks to the lack of moral leadership in the U.S. churches. This issue has long been resolved by the heads of the church. And to be honest, it's not just the RCC, it's many churches. And it's NOT just the churches, it's also the people, who do not take God's word seriously when it comes to taking communion.. 1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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Tabby, that is a good question. I would imagine that the reason the church takes such a firm stance is that murder is the one sin that cannot be rectified. Once a child is butchered, there is no going back. With the sin of adultery, a person has the ability to change their ways and recover a marriage. With abortion, even if the person learns and repents of their sin, the child is still dead. All sins are not equal...not by a long-shot.
I am not sure if this is the reasoning for the church stance on excommunicating abortion enablers...but, to me, this seems to make sense. Remember that a person can and should be welcomed back to the flock if they change their ways.
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Tabby1 Hey MEDC, I have quasi-related question (idea came from another thread). The RCC is against abortion because they view it as murder, which is one of the 10 commandments, correct? Why don't they take the same stance with adultery? Are the commandments ranked? I'm just looking for the answer, I'm not catholic so I don't know - so please don't anybody start this into anything. That is a good question, there are some denominations that do, if/when the adultery comes to light. And no, the commandments are not ranked, other than to Put God first. IF a person puts God first, they will pretty much keep all the rest..not that they won't struggle or fail to do so, when people struggle and fail, it's typically because they are not following the first..to put God first.
Last edited by ThornedRose; 09/09/08 09:44 AM.
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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I agree TR... these are the beliefs of my church. Our Beliefs
We believe abortion is a blight on our nation and a horror to this generation.
We believe abortion is not just a political issue, but also a moral and social issue.
We believe that if the church fails to respond to this moral crisis the church will be accountable to God and to history.
We believe that the church should not only speak against, but also actively resist abortion and seek to heal those wounded by it.
We believe that our action should go beyond preaching the Gospel and prayer, as important as these efforts are.
We believe that abortion is now infecting Bible-believing churches as those churches resist speaking out against abortion and refuse to actively participate in pro-life work.
We believe most born-again Christians are opposed to abortion, but have been lulled into thinking the situation will never change.
We believe that being hypersensitive to seekers, in the hope of not offending them with a strong active pro-life ministry, is a serious error.
We believe that many pastors are tempted to be more concerned about attendance than standing up for the pre-born.
We believe that judgment begins in the house of the Lord. (I Peter 4:17) We, therefore, hold each other accountable as to our response to this crisis.
We believe that being 'pro-life' is more than being against abortion. It means actively making a difference in our local community, state, nation and the world.
We believe that if most Bible-believing churches would legally oppose their local abortion clinics they would not stay in business.
We believe that when a clinic is performing abortions the churches should have a legal presence on their sidewalk to offer alternatives to the mothers and create an atmosphere that hinders a 'business-as-usual' environment.
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I see your point, but the effects of adultery (or any other sin for that matter) are also not rectified. Once a BS, always a BS. Once a rape victim, always a rape victim and son on. The perpetrator of any of these crimes could repent, seek forgiveness and be welcomed back in the church, no? Why not the person who has an abortion? What about a regular murderer (i.e. one who takes a gun and kills someone who is already born)? Are they excommunicated as well?
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any catholic that votes for a candidate that supports abortion is committing a grave sin and should not receive communion. Religion always intrigues me.. **EDIT** ..on what basis precisely, an action becomes grievous, is a question of the Point of View. Religion and politics make dangerous bedfellows...
Last edited by Revera; 09/09/08 11:40 AM. Reason: defamatory
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Souldragon, I'm not looking for opinions or argument. I'm just trying to understand the position of the church. As a nonmember with many different views, I'm simply trying to educate myself.
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In the Catholic church, being truly repentant is what matters. ONLY THAT. Whether for murder, abortion, adultry, anything. The only thing that matters is that you are TRULY repentant. That means, if you have done something against the churches teaching, and you CAN undo them, you do. If it is something you cannot change, well then, you must truly be sorry for what you did. ANd there obviously is the problem. The truth can only be revealed, for sure, between you and GOD.
What Medc is saying, I thing, is that if you vote for someone who is pro abortion, you are condoning the murder of children. Even if he or she stands for EVERYTHING else you want, the abortion stance stands out before all. ANd, personally, I think this is a correct stance by the church.
My biggest problem is that many, many abortion foes are all for capital punishment, which has been condemned by the church also. The old testament doesn't seem to have a problem with it, but, unless I'm wrong here, the church has made a stand AGAINST capital punsihment because of the same reason they use in their stance against abortion....that God gives life and ONLY he can take it away.
But the world has become SO complicated that to truly answer questions on the churches stances, you have to be learned in Christian doctrine. As science advances, so does the complexity of living life.
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Remember that a person can and should be welcomed back to the flock if they change their ways. Tabby, perhaps you missed this point from me. What Medc is saying, I thing, is that if you vote for someone who is pro abortion, you are condoning the murder of children. Even if he or she stands for EVERYTHING else you want, the abortion stance stands out before all. ANd, personally, I think this is a correct stance by the church. Correct My biggest problem is that many, many abortion foes are all for capital punishment, which has been condemned by the church also. I am against capital punishment. But to speak to your point, capital punishment and abortion are so vastly different it is hard to compare the two. Innocents are killed in abortions...for the most part, not with cp. IF capital punishment actually had an impact on the murder rate and prevented the deaths of other innocents, I might agree that the judicious use of it would be warranted. But two issues prevent me from doing that...capital punishment only seeks to punish the offender..it is revenge. It would be very easy to protect people by having life without parole. The other BIG issue I have with it is that mistakes have been made and innocent people have been executed. THAT should NEVER be tolerated. If a million people were executed every year I am sure this would be a hotter political issue. Since the numbers are very small, I see people focusing their efforts where they are needed most.
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Souldragon...your post is offensive.
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All sins are not equal...not by a long-shot. I'm sorry if the this is the wrong thread to ask this but how is it all sins are not equal? The only sin I know that is considered more grevious than another based on scripture is blasphemy. I promise this is not meant to start a debate. I just want to know where you came to this conclusion? All I've ever read in the Bible is that if you commit any sin, you are as guilty as anyone else that is committing sin. That and I've never had a preacher tell me that if you commit murder, your punishment is more serious than from committing adultery.
Last edited by kilted_thrower; 09/09/08 11:53 AM.
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I suggest you do a web search on this topic. Just as a start for you from Christianity today... Scripture shows that in God's estimate some sins are worse and bring greater guilt than others, and that some sins do us more damage. Moses rates the golden calf debacle a great sin (Ex. 32:30). Ezekiel in his horrific allegory says that after Oholah (Samaria) had ruined herself by unfaithfulness to God, Oholibah (Jerusalem) "became more corrupt … in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister" (Ezek. 23:11, ESV). John distinguishes sins that do and do not inevitably lead to death (1 John 5:16), picking up Jesus' warning about the unforgivable sin (Mk. 3:28-30). Jesus is very clear when he talks about the speck of sawdust (sin) in others eyes while not paying attention to the plank in your own. http://www.gracecentered.com/are_all_sins_equal.htm
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Matthew 18:6 is also an example of sins not being equal.
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James 2:10-11
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stubbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said "Do not commit adultery," also said "do not commit murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
Summed up in my own words. Anytime we break the law we are guilty. It does not matter which one it is. We can never keep the law, that is why Christ was sacrificed for us. We are not saved by keeping the law but through the grace of God.
Sins are not equal in the consiquence here on Earth. As for salvation all sins are equal, as they all lead to death, unless you are saved.
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