Gabagool,

Might I suggest a book to you?

The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell.

You see, faith in spite of evidence is nothing more than folly. Faith because of the evinence can give us hope because we know it to be true. If the God of the Bible is nothing more than a fable then there is no reason to believe in him or to do anything he says.

Mark

Agreed.

There is no such thing as venial and mortal sin either - ALL sin is mortal.

..just curious: If the Lord's Release was not honored, would that be a sin?

Of course, that is the KJV of the bible...should hold true for believers...

IF: God is omnipotent, omniscient and the pages of our lives have already been written, then it is clear that the abortion was already known and God chose not to interfere. Is that not so?

If one tosses in the *wild card* and calls it Free will...then that Will was already known. Where is the sin?

However, since ALL is known before and after, it becomes an endless spiral of human rationalizations and justifications.



To pick and choose one's version of 'Belief', to have 'Faith' with only those parts which don't offend. One must question...the veracity thereof.

Total Executions since 1977 = 1099

(1096 by states, 3 Federal)

Court rules constitution does not prohibit capital punishment)

Total Abortions since 1973 = 48,589,993

Roe v Wade ruled states could not limit abortion

For those keeping score since 1973 that is 1099 executions through the courts and 48,589,993 Million Children executed by Abortion.

I do not support the death penalty and have faith in the US that through legislation it will be prohibited in every state and do not want the Supreme Court forcing a States hand to require capital Punishment.

States currently have the right to legislate Capital punishment.

I do not support Abortion, the legal capital punishment of unborn children, and do not want the Supreme Court requiring States to legalize it.

Roe v Wade took away most of the States rights to legislate Abortion.

Obama wants to make abortion on demand a "fundamental right" throughout the United States, at any time during a pregnancy and for any reason.

FOCA would effectively nullify informed consent laws, waiting periods, health safety regulations for abortion clinics, etc.

"The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," Obama said in his July speech to abortion advocates worried about the increase of pro-life legislation at the state level.

Well, as a catholic, I've been taught the the commandant of keeping the sabbath holy requires worship, or mass, that day. It makes sense to me that God would want the day of rest dedicated to worship and part of that worship would be attending mass.

I realize all christianities are different, so I speak as a Catholic. And this has been taught to me for my lifetime, there is NO dissagreement among those teaching it. And my MASS I mean service. I call it Mass because that is what my service is called. Sorry if it was confusing.

Well, I believe what I read. ANd I ALWAYS trust my common sense. So as the following illustrates, THIS IS A CONTRADICTION. ANd I can't stand it when I hear "well, what the Bible is REALLY SAYING......" No, I am intereste in what is WRITTEN. Interpretations are like ___holes, EVERYONE'S got one.

Though shalt not kill. Pretty plain, right. Pretty much have to be a moron NOT to undertand this short and to the point commandment.

Now read Joshua. This chapter is FULL of God telling him to kill every woman, child, man, animal, insect, etc,, etc, ex nauseating cetra. Now I have read sites that EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT GOD REALLY MEANT. Please, spare me. I can read, and I can understand.
The bible was written and organized by people. Do I believe in inspiration, sure. But people MAY have thought they were being inspired, when in reality, they were mistaken.

Though shall not kill.

26: And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
40: So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

The language is a bit much, but even someone as limited intellectually as I am, and as NOT proficient in scripture as me can easily understand what is being written. It nauseates me really. Now again, I realize there are apoligists out there. About it being a different time, ect. But I thought morality and Gods commandments DID NOT change with the times. I thought that his rules went BEYOND being STYLISH.

I love god and I need Him, thats for sure. But, I can't in all honesty, say the Bible doesn't confuse me.

Mark

SOrry, Man. But here we don't agree, IF I am reading you right.

Who NEEDS faith, when you have EVIDENCE? Faith is what makes you beleive when you DON'T have evidence. Like Thomas (the Ye of litte FAITH. He NEEDED evidence, he had LITTLE faith)

I don't need evidence to back up my faith in GOd.

Faith is like love in a marriage. Just like faith allows you to BELIEVE, LOVE allows you to BELIEVE. Without EITHER, the real world would chew you up and spit you out. THe hardships of living together, the attempt at trying to fuse TWO seperate lives into one, the SELFISHNESS that is inherent to humans, all this is EVIDENCE that a succesful marriage is BOUND to fail. But, like FAITH, LOVE allows you to TRY, to not give up, TO BELIEVE that something BEAUTIFUL CAN exist, in the face of OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE.

Sorry, Mark, I'm a sap. My heart always has ruled over my head, since I was a kid.

But, I will look into the book. I like to learn, even if I disagree, thanks.

me too.

G,

The passages you quoted all hinge around a couple of things. First is the translation of the commandment to not "kill."

Most of the early translations of the OT including the KJV of 1611 were translated from the Latin Vulgate. The Vulgate used the words "Non occides" which could be translated as "do not kill" or "do not murder" but the word "kill" is more accurate.

However, when the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, which was the common language of exchange during Jesus day, the same commandment as quoted in Matt 19 uses the Latin "Non homicidium facies" which is there translated as "commit no murder."

The Hebrew could be translated as "kill" except for the fact that it implies an unjust killing and capital punishment certainly wasn't something God forbade.

So if the commandment is not to commit murder (to take a life unjustly) then the death penalty was certainly in play.

As to why God would have women and children slaughtered as part of a conquest I can only answer in part.

The people of the region that Joshua conquered had a plethora of gods that they worshiped. Some of these gods were worshiped by human sacrifice including the sacrifice of their own children in some instances. Skeptics would argue that little or nothing of these people is known outside of the Hebrew scriptures and that there seems to be almost no archeological evidence to support these claims.

The fact is that almost no evidence of the people of that part of the world that was conquered by Joshua exists at all prior to the conquest. There are occasional instances of ruins of entire cities which might suggest the conquest and the ruthlessness of the conquest itself, but nearly all religious sites have vanished entirely.

If in fact the people were conquered by Joshua and the Israeli army and if they were in fact told to be sure to not worship any of the gods of that region and if they were in fact told to wipe all traces of these people from the face of the Earth, then it would follow that one of the main things they would have dismantled would be the religious sites where those gods were worshiped.

I have to get ready for work...

I'll try to get back here later.

I have a comment about what keeping the Sabbath holy means as well but it will have to wait.

Mark

Mark

That is an AMAZING post. I'm obviously in a position to learn something from you, thats for sure.

I had read some of the same things. In reading the bible the first time, in Genesis, I came across a passage that made me realize that God did INDEED ok capital punishment. I was shocked. But I also know that the Pope,and the Catholic church, condemned it long ago.

Mark, can I ask you something? How could someone so obviously well versed in christianity NEED evidence to back up his faith???
Now that it is clear on how much you know about christianity, I am genuinely interested in knowing this. Thanks.

PS. Oh yeah, about why GOD wanted the woman and children killed has been explained to me like this: All vestiges of idolatry must be vanquished or that idolatry would pollute the Jewish nation and cause them to split from the lord. In fact, that is just what happened. But it seems like hanging a picture with a sledge hammer, doesn't it??

whether or not God permits capital punishment is irrelevant in my opinion. Having been a cop and KNOWING firsthand how the justice "system" works, I am very uncomfortable with the death penalty. Innocent people have been executed based on wrongful convictions....of this there is no doubt or debate...it has happened.

Until there is an infallible way to determine that no innocents are murdered by the state, the punishment of death should be abolished.

Not exactly..
Quite clear.

Clear.

Clear.
A murderer cannot be put to death on the basis of one witness.

No ransoms/ plea bargaining...nada.

Clearly, a murderer is to be put to Death. The one that kills h/im/er is NOT guilty of any sin.

To not Kill the murderer defiles the dwelling place of the Lord.

Hmmm...maybe because it 'offends'?

Ioannes Paulus PP. II
Veritatis splendor

^^Quite a bit of double talk and appeal to the current shifts and trends in morality...Why is that? Is the Bible not sufficient ? Is the Bible not really rather CLEAR?

OR: Are we allowed to pick and choose whatever suits the current morality of the day and maintain larger numbers of members within the flock?

The New Testament is also PERFECTLY Clear...

To state otherwise and call oneself Christian...is sacrilegious.
There are those who will find that^^ statement "offensive"...don't be....Scripture supports the argument.

The fact that man has free will does not nullify an action being sin. If a child is not supposed to do something but does, they are still in trouble.

SD,

I'm just wondering where you are quoting this stuff from. Some of it is clearly scripture passages but some of it appears to be some sort of paper or transcript.

It's hard to even discuss something when all you are getting is bits and pieces of it quoted without context or source given to allow further scrutiny.

MEDC,

I actually agree with you about the state of our justice system. I don't think I would have much problem with capital punishment if the biblical guidelines for justice were adhered to across the board. The fact that our version of criminal justice has been so off the mark so often (I live in Illinois where a bunch of folks were on death row and exonerated in recent years) makes me think that the "profession" of prosecutor has become a win at all costs job that is willing to railroad whoever they decide to pick for a crime rather than actually following the evidence.

Here in Illinois we had a famous case where a couple of guys were convicted despite what to me seemed a lot of evidence that showed they were innocent. They were minor bad guys at best and the prosecution went after them with a vengeance and attacked the witnesses that supplied their alibis. Not only were they convicted, but when the first convictions were thrown out they were retried and convicted again.

Later it became known that there was evidence that the prosecution withheld that proved one of the two was not guilty. When DNA testing became common, testing proved that neither of them had anything to do with the crime they were charged with and yet the prosecutors claimed that there must have been a third party involved along with the other two and they remained in prison.

Eventually the person who the DNA pointed to confessed but was already in prison for life for another murder and still it was the contention of prosecutors that the original convictions should stand.

Finally after 17 years, the courts ordered the release of the man who had been confined for half of his life for a crime he claimed he had nothing to do with. Further investigation led to the conviction and imprisonment of the prosecutor of the original and second trials because evidence was both withheld & manufactured. Today, both men once convicted of a horrible murder of a young child are free and the lawyer who put them in jail is a "guest of the state."

To me the fact that it happened once means it could happen again and I am not a firm believer in the death penalty because I don't trust the justice system to get it right every time.

The evidence says they get it wrong often enough to stop capital punishment, IMO.

My statement earlier is that God does not prohibit and in fact calls for the death penalty for certain crimes. But contextually many of those cases were to prevent the corruption of what He hoped to establish with a nation dedicated to obeying His laws.

GG,

I'll be back later. I do have something to say about sabbath and keeping it holy and why I think the command was put in place to begin with.

Mark

gabagool


contrary to what some denominations teach, missing Mass isn't a sin.


that is where we as humans have problems re: God. We try to put our thoughts on to Him, making Him what we want Him to be, not who He is, and when we do that, we are not worshiping God for who HE is, but for who we want Him to be..

In my understanding of God, sin is sin is sin, and it's all against Him and His creation.

He even says it's the imaginations of man's heart is evil. (Gen 8:21)

So if you lust after a woman, in your heart, it's the same as committing the act.

think of all the evil things you can think or imagine yourself or someone else doing..take for example, how many think about either killing their spouse or the affair partner. That's their imagination being evil.

think about how many people wish they could kill a child molester or some one who has abused their spouse and kids, for the vile they have done..that is their imagination being evil.

But we know that not everyone acts on those thoughts, that is God's grace, holding back the evil that man if left on His own would commit.

Mark1952;





Another aspect of this is shown throughout History, when all peoples of the nation aren't killed, when the children grow up they carry that anger with them and retaliate against those who killed their families.

gabagool



Stop looking at religion, true faith is not found in religion, it's found in Christ.

King James Bible, an old translation.

The second is the Veritatis splendor from the Vatican.
Read about that case. $$$$...

Joseph Edward Duncan III
http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/duncan.htm
1980 - a young boy and his family, what kind of scars is that boy, now a man dealing with today ?
1996 – two sisters dead, I wonder how their parents and families are doing today ?
1997 – another dead young boy, anybody here want to ask his parents how their doing today ?
2005 – an entire family wiped out, a young girl, again scared for life, any bleeding heart want to go talk to her and her remaining family and tell them how bad the death penalty is ?

How many would still be ALIVE....if:

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Mark1952 and MedC, make valid poihts, however, neither factor in the defilement of the Lord's Dwelling. Is the Law of the Lord to be given short shrift? Apparently so...to ease the conscience of Man. HOw does that work? It is clear in The Old Testament, should one kill in error without enmity, s/he is still a murderer. ie. the State. There is no avenger. The Intent to follow the Law of God was clear. Even though in error, the heart of man is open to God. S/he will judge. Not man.

That judgement you cannot know and cannot guess, however your faith in the Lord should not be questioned as his Laws are Clear. Crystal clear.
Hubris is the crime of the current wave of theological and moral twists of the written word.

It's been a long time since I looked at this..but I'll give it my best shot here.

The peoples who were killed by Joshua and company were given fair warning "to get out of dodge". They had heard that Israel was coming to take over the Promised land and had heard what wonders Israel's God had done for them on their behalf. They had become a wicked people, practicing the most wicked things, and they needed to go. In all likelihood most of the people DID leave. It was the hard core warriors and their families that stayed behind.

Now, you have to remember that Israel wasn't the wealthy nation that we (America) are. They had only the clothes on their back, they could barely take care of themselves, they couldn't fly in the Red Cross to feed and care for the women and children the warriors left behind. They couldn't even take them on as slaves. So, what option did they have? If they left them there, they'd have died an agonizing death...dehydrating in the desert. So, as difficult as this is to comprehend in our present time, the most merciful thing to do was to kill them quickly.

God did not tell Israel to kill an entire race of people. Only those who were still living in the Promised land. He didn't have Israel chase the people who had fled earlier. They were free to live else where. And did.

I also want to note that when Israel turned its back on God and began the same wicked practices that these nations were, He used Babylon to chase Israel out of the Promised Land. And those who refused to obey God's command to leave...accept His just punishment, were killed by the Babylonians.

I know I have spelling errors, but I'm too tired to correct them. LOL

Thank you for pointing that out, Marsh. That's the whole point. God doesn't care who you are or who's your daddy...To Him, sin is sin.

Not the same as saying all sins are the same, just that all have the same ultimate result (separation from God) because all have the same source (our choosing to do what we want rather than what God says is right.)

GG,

Regarding the mass/sabbath thing...

The original sabbath (Hebrew Shabbat) was and still is Saturday (the seventh day of the week.) It was instituted by God for several reasons.

First, it was a sign for all that those observing the Sabbath were followers of Him, the God who created the universe in 6 days and then took a day off as a day of rest (Could discuss for years whether the word translated as day [yom] means a 24 hour period, some fixed period of time greater than that or some epoch or fuzzy time period or even simply a descriptive form of literary license. That debate has gone on for centuries.)

The second possible reason for the sabbath was so that the people of God could learn to trust Him rather than rely on their own work and see themselves as the source of what they had. No other culture in the world at that time ever had days off, with the exception of a very few holidays which were usually such elaborate celebrations that they didn't even resemble a break from the work that everyone had to do on a daily basis.

Every culture in the world at that time had to work 7 days per week because that was what it takes to live when you have to sustain yourself and your family from what you can grow, gather and hunt. The harvest does not wait for you to get back to work. The cows don't wait for you to milk them because you don't feel like getting out of bed this morning. The weeds don't stop growing just because you want to take a break.

So the fact that Israel could take a day off work at all and still not only survive but thrive showed that the God of Israel was a powerful God. It reminded the people that God was the source of all they had since they did not have to do without in order to take the day off.

The third possible reason for the sabbath was to show the rest of the world that God was in control in Israel. It showed them that by obeying Him, He would do things for you that no other god could do, including give you a day off work without your life running out of control and spiraling into oblivion.

Another possible reason was simply to give Man a break. It is a day of rest and recuperation AND a time to spend enjoying family and friends.

What I think is the biggest reason for Shabbat is that it separated Israel from all other cultures in a way that almost nothing else could. Shabbat keepers were clearly different than anyone else since everyone else worked 7 days per week.

The word "holy" means different or set apart from and Shabbat certainly created a gulf between Israel and the rest of the world. It set them apart because they would not participate in commerce or negotiations one day out of seven and all on the same day. It made them noticeably different than anyone else.

It also kept them from being easily assimilated by culture around them. So even during the dispersion throughout the world that happened when Rome sacked and burned Jerusalem in 70 AD, Israel was set apart in a way that made them clearly distinguishable from surrounding society. It also made them easily identifiable to their enemies and meant they were easy targets. But because it kept them separate from those around them and insulated them from becoming like everyone else, it was Shabbat that kept the Jews as much as they that kept Shabbat.

Interestingly, in the OT there were 613 laws and commands of God. Many of those were expanded in an effort to be clarified, but a lot of the things written about the law were intended to clarify Shabbat and what it means to work and what not working really means since breaking Shabbat was considered a serious breach of covenant (contract) with God.

One of the things you could not do on Shabbat was to travel. And if you live far enough away from the Tabernacle, later the Temple you were not only not expected to attend Sabbath services, you were actually prohibited from doing so by the very law of Shabbat.

This is primarily what led to the beginning of local assemblies of believers (synagogue) so that followers of Yahweh could assemble together to worship and teach about Him without breaking His law concerning the sabbath.

Under New Testament guidelines, Paul tells us that we should not "forsake the gathering of the brethren." That is, we should assemble together for the same purposes as the Jews, worship and study Yahweh. But there is something else we should do when we gather and that is called by Paul and other NT writers "the breaking of bread" and refers to the sacrament of communion. (Won't start the debate over transubstantiation or any of that right now.) The early believers described in Acts were said to meet together daily for these purposes and not just on Shabbat. On Shabbat they usually attended Temple or the local synagogue since most were Jews. It says that they met daily and dedicated themselves to the teaching of the Apostles, (the concept of Rabbi or teacher sharing what he is learning and has learned with others who are willing to listen and learn from him) to the breaking of bread and to prayer. That pretty much sums up the early church. It was an every day sort of thing.

Sunday became the day of worship by Christians gradually over a few centuries. The early church often usurped local customs and holidays and turned them into celebrations for Christians. Sunday was the day sun-god worshipers met and there were many of those in Roman controlled parts of the world. By coupling worship to the resurrection it made it possible to take over the day and steal it from the pagans.

The same thing is how we ended up with Christmas (feast of Saturnalia) Lent (Feast of Bacchanalia) and even Easter (spring festival in honor of the goddess EASTER who was the goddess of fertility and planting and plenty.) Early Christians turned Easter into Resurrection Sunday, celebrated the birth of Christ in the dead of winter though his birth was probably in the spring and stole the worst show of debauchery on the planet and turned people's minds toward Christ.

There were 613 laws and commands of God in the OT. Jesus said they were all summed up by two...

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength...

Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you really do those two, you will be like David, who though he sinned often and seriously was called "a man after my own heart" by God Himself.

Jesus didn't call us to be rule keepers, He called us to be sold out followers of God. The OT asks us for a tenth and one day per week. Jesus points out that it's all His anyway and what He expects is 100% and to make every day a day to worship the God of the universe.

Because He paid for it with His own life given willingly on the cross...

Mark