I agree it is confusing, however every time I made suggestions my H would say: stop telling me what to do! so it is seen as manipulation. also the surprising thing my H just told me is that what he likes in a woman is the mystery, not knowing all the time what she is thinking or all her problems.
he said that all the venting of frustrations from my part was the real turn down as he could not seem to be able to understand why i was so unhappy ALL the time and pretty consistently thru the M with practically everything i had (and i had a lot really, i just realize it now...too late!) he has a hard time with too much talk. i definately talk too much and feel i have to engage in conversations all the time. i do not think that is good. at least not for my H. i also noticed that he really does not like any type of negative judgement i make even if it is about a table that should be replaced or re-painted etc..he does not like negative statements. i guess i have been using those too much and he is really maxed out!
i see you are sending emails to you H. does he like to read long emails?

Sorry about the comment re: long emails. I see that actually you are keeping them short and to the point. this is good. for as much as it is worth telling you this, my H said he just deletes long emails. 4 years ago my H had an A. i used to send him nice emails but every now and then i slipped in some re-hashing of the past. later on he said he never read them as he could not stand to think about or hear about the past again. it was too painful and was something he really did not want to deal with at that time.
keep them upbeat. hopefully he will read the Harley books. then he will be ready to talk about the past. not yet. i would focus on the present and the future for now.
again my 2 cents worth.

My H has said the same -- rehashing the past is painful to both of us. We've had so many phone calls since April where we both end up crying and then hanging up.

the last two phone calls have been pleasant -- laughing and talking -- like the old days. We share the same goofy sense of humor.

I will try to keep it light -- hard to do -- but I must be patient and have self-control.

Yes, the key here is like my friend on this forum MelodyLane says: to give our Hs hope. They lost hope in us. They already suspect our changes are temporary: we showed them that in the past too many times as we returned to our old habits. they have a hard time believing us. keeping things light, not talking about negative stuff and leaving the past alone for a while will give them hope and the respect they deserve. should the M be given another chance then we can face all the hard stuff with the help of a couselor. not alone. not yet.
even if he reads the Harley books, i would have him bring up stuff, not you. do not put too many expectations as i think he will feel the hurge to run away from you or from talking to you. sorry if i say this but i have seen this so many times with my H and also during his A 4 years ago that i do not want to repeat the same mistakes all over again. i am putting no pressure on him nor i bring up any controversial issues, i try to see the positive in everything now, for my on sake and that transfer to my H. I feel better when i do that.

My H has said very similar things -- he struggled to make me happy about our life, our marriage, our house. I complained a lot about little stupid things -- like you -- I can now see how blessed I was but didn't see it. I think for me it was a quest for perfection. I didn't relax and enjoy my H and our life. He didn't feel like he was my first priority. Now I want it all back and he is so drained I don't know if he'll ever take the chance.

I was tellng a friend last night -- I am changing for the better because I am doing the analysis -- reading, counseling, Al-Anon, learning from others here on the forum -- and I am becoming the best me that I can be. The thing is -- I want to share the new me with him -- not someone else. I am becoming all that he wanted me to be -- that he believed I could be. Relationships are so hard. . . .

Relationships are so hard and require a lot of patience and work. i am not very patient and like you i could never seem to relax. never enjoyed anything much. or never really showed it. always found something to b*tch about and i had a lot of great stuff going for me really. H said that what really made him decide to separate was the fact that i would set goals with him or even personal ones, then when i achieved them i did not enjoy them and almost wanted to sabotage the all process.
if your H is not involved with onother W then I think you have a good chance. you must be persistant however and very patient. yesterday i was talking to my brother about this situation and he said that my H really is a saint for putting up with all of the abuse for 18 years. He also made a very interesting comment: he said, your H has a very high tollerance level and if you really can change even a little, he might be willing to give it a try....who knows. i really hope so. i can't imagine growing old without my H!

Yes -- people were telling me this from the beginning but I couldn't understand why he didn't want to talk about the past. To me, I felt that we had to address it. I couldn't keep it light. Then I quit calling him for 6 weeks -- he didn't call me at all -- I didn't get in contact with him. Then I called on Labor Day and that was our first conversation that was really light and fun -- we laughed. The second call was the hour long one and that was good too. I ask him each time when would be a good time to call -- which gives him the opportunity to decline or have the call at a convenient time to him. I think this is a respectful action on my part -- am I right?

My H is a really good guy too -- a blessing. I knew he was good natured and patient but I abused it without really even seeing the damage I was doing.

I have a guy friend at work that I talk to. He said that my H is going to let me stew for a good long while. I read on another site that the deeper the pain -- the longer the separation.

I hope for both of our sakes that our Hs will give us another chance.

"I ask him each time when would be a good time to call -- which gives him the opportunity to decline or have the call at a convenient time to him. I think this is a respectful action on my part -- am I right?"

It is. I think our Hs are intoxicated with us. so if we bring up the past they can't help but see our old selves, the abusers. we need to change the image they have of us and that's why the past has to stay out for a while. keeping things light and fun is the key in your situation as he moved out and you no longer share the same place. with time he will tend to forget the bad and remember the good and if you keep things "good" he will re-shape his image of you. but you have to really be careful not to fall into the temptation of re-hashing/exploring/discussing/hinting at the past. there will be a time, if you reach recovery. not now. i would not mention the Harley books to him at all, unless he brings them up. if you do so..that is manipulation because it is hinting at the fact that he should read them, that they would help him (implying he needs help, so he is weak..), he has done something wrong in the past and the books can help him change as they are helping you...
self improvement is up to the individual person. you have done your job giving him the titles. now is up to him.

Persistency i think is a key element. My H does not want to spend much time with me, however i make sure i stop by his classroom every day (we work in same school) and say hi! even for only one minute. i am pleasant, give him a big smile, bring him a piece of fruit. at home i leave him alone, but make sure i meet his EN. this is hard however as he really avoids me when he can.
Food: is a great and simple way to become close to people. are you into it? is your H into it? it does not matter. however, you could buy something special for him at the local organic market or cook up a special recipe and tell him that you know he is alone and you would appreciate it if he would honor you by tasting this new recipe... or tell him about the property of local food all the antioxidants and how he should try those local peaches that taste sooo gooood! could he meet you somewhere so you can give them to him? could we meet for a coffee? etc...
in other words, you have to find ways to get back into his life...persistently so. but not aggressively. wording it in a way that gives him a chance to say NO if he wants to.
keep calling at least once a week, more if possible. work towards developing a common interest that will give you many chances to see him, even if only VERY briefly. Briefly is another key component: it keeps conversation light, avoids falling into the past or slipping into habits that remind him of the "bad you".
"My H is a really good guy too -- a blessing. I knew he was good natured and patient but I abused it without really even seeing the damage I was doing. "
"I have a guy friend at work that I talk to. He said that my H is going to let me stew for a good long while. I read on another site that the deeper the pain -- the longer the separation. "
It is hard to know if this will ever work out and if our Hs are going to come back to the M. They might very well be determined to end it once and for all and no matter what we do it will not be good enough to undo all the pain we caused to them. there is also the possibility that they find OWs and ask for a divorce and since they are spending lots of time away from us (my H spends all his free time not doing things with me, so on his own)that has to be factored in.
but let's hope that if we really work at this they will come back to the M and loves us again.

Hi GV:

I love to cook and often made treats for my husband. We visited local farmer's markets and organic stores (Whole Foods, Trader Joe's). We did like to get "fancy coffee" like at Starbucks or other locals coffee shop.

However, in one of our conversations in June, I think. My H said that all I did in 9 years was clothe and feed him. That I didn't support him. This really hurt because although I cook and bake quite a bit . . .I did those things out of love because cooking is one of the ways I like to show love to people.

So I am not sure cooking/baking him something would be a good idea. As far as the clothing comment, I did do all the laundry and I did buy him clothes for holidays. But he always said that he liked the stuff I bought him because I knew exactly what he liked and what was comfortable. So, I don't know. . .that is why I feel like my marriage was a lie. . that he was dishonest a good part of the time. Do you see what I mean?

I don't know if you saw one of my earlier posts about my anniversary coming up next week - 9/18. What do you think of the card that I planned to give him?

Front:
Our relationship has never
followed the rules.
We've never been the kind
of fairy-tale couple you see in the movies.

It seems like we're either head over heels in love
or crazy with frustration.
We're not perfect and neither is this relationship.

But you know what?
It's ours. All ours--
the little jokes that only we understand,
the way our hands naturally find each others,
and the memories that seem so wonderful
now that we look back.

Our relationship will never be perfect
but it will always be an important part of me.

Inside:
And I know that I'd rather be "real" with you
than "fairy tale" with anyone else.

I don't know what's in store for us.
But I know I want you in my life.
I know I love you.

by Amy S. Trowbridge.


I read the card and pretended I was my H: I was immediately taken by a feeling of axiety. Especially this part of the card
"And I know that I'd rather be "real" with you
than "fairy tale" with anyone else.
I don't know what's in store for us.
But I know I want you in my life.
I know I love you."
My H would think: well i would rather visualize a fairy tale and start from there than have the "real MMM" together with the "real" relationship with her, whatever that means. and...Well, whatever is in store for us, right now i do know i want her in my life.
MMM, you have to do this in little steps. this is too much right now, I think, for your husband. YOu want him in your life, of course, but you are going to make your way back into his life gradually and you do not have to announce it to him. he has left you and might not want to be part of your life for a while. don't scare him away from the small steps he is taking to actually have somewhat of a point of contact with you (emails and phone calls)

I would write something like this ("Our relationship will never be perfect but it will always be an important part of me." Happy Birthday!
by Amy S. Trowbridge.)on a nice blank card. The rest is way too much. Again, keep it simple and brief.

Okay, Genoveffa -- that is what I was afraid of. It is tough to know what to do in these situations. Following my instincts is not always a good course of action !!!!

I read your entire thread -- it looks like you have your appointment with Steve Harley today. Good luck and I will be interested to see what he says.

I sent an email to my H today to see if he wanted to get together. Here it is:

Me: Hi. . .how are you?
H: Mentally exhausted. It's been a busy {Pain in the butt Client XYZ} kinda week. And tomorrow I get to come in and test the "new system release." Yea me! How you doin'?
Me: Oooh . . .I feel your pain . . .I got a call at 1:30 from Company A saying we couldn't sent any files to them from 2:45 to 3:45 -- talk about last minute! I had to send out urgent emails to half the department so I am getting return receipt emails every three seconds! Sounds like we both need a treat. . . .did you want to get a "fancy" coffee drink somewhere?
H: I'll have to take a raincheck on that fancy coffee drink. ClientXYZ just sent me (via my boss) a list of questions they would like addressed immediately. I swear those people never go home! The other night I had questions for them and they were still there at 6:30 pm.
Me: Okay. . . . I hope you won't get stuck there too late. It would be nice to see you and share a coffee or sweet treat. Maybe we could get together sometime in the coming week?
H: Sure. I'm certain next week will be less busy for me.
Me: Great. . .hopefully next week will be a lot drier too! My pantlegs are just now drying out and it is time to go back out into the rain! :o) Do you start bowling this Saturday?
H: Yep. I come in here, then I go to bowling. Should be a busy day tomorrow. Sometime between then and now I have to try to remember how to hurl a bowling ball.
Me: Well, have a good time doing both of those activities -- I'll give you a call sometime Sunday to see how it all went. Plus I can give you an update on session two of bellydancing! Is that okay?
H: Sure, unless you'd rather call me tomorrow. System testing is pretty boring. Since I bowl tomorrow at 8:00, I'll probably be here from noon to 7:00 (not much point in going home in between).
Me: That's cool . . . . I'll give ya a buzz either Sat or Sun or you can call when convenient for you. Whoever calls who I guess we'll be talkin soon! Take care -- I'm headin for home.
H: Have a good commute.

What does everyone think -- LA? Genoveffa? Stellakat?

He is talking to you. A positive thing. No way to predict if he will come back to the marriage or when.

Hey everyone -- talked to my H this afternoon. I hope I didn't mess up.

We talked about his work, my bellydancing class, his bowling team (which made me nervious because it is couples but he said he is on a team with a couple he doesn't know, the brother of the guy and himself). I told him about a coffee shop close to downtown that has bellydancing on Sunday nights. he laughed and said he'd pass. I tried to teasingly egg him on to go with me but he declined. I told him that he promised me a coffee date so I asked if we were going to set something up for this week. He said "how about Thursday or Friday." I said that I started a Bible study at the church on Thursday but could go Friday. (Now, this Thursday is our 9th wedding anniversary so things get a little weird here). He said how about Thursday or Friday during the day? i hesitated because I was hoping for an evening but I said okay. He said we'll decide which day later in the week. I said "Well, this is a little awkward but Thursday is our anniversary. Did you remember?" He said "yeah, I remember." I asked if we were going to do anything or exchange cards because we are still married. After a long pause, he said "Let's just buy each other coffee." I said "okay" and abruptly changed the subject. I also asked him if he had anything planned for his birthday "he said not at the moment but it was a dress down day at work." We talked for about 10 more minutes and then he said that he had to get going to bowling. I asked him if I could call him tomorrow to see how bowling went. He said "sure" I asked him "if I was being a pest." He said No, you're not being a pest. I said "Well, I really enjoy talking to you." He didn't say anything in response. So I said to have a good time at bowling and good bye; he said bye.

After we talked about the anniversary he got really weird and quiet. Did I screw up big time? I mean, it is a difficult subject to avoid. I didn't intend to bring it up but if we end up having coffee the afternoon of our anniversary I didn't want to bring up the obvious during coffee.

Aaaah. . .help! I could just smack my head against the wall.

" He said how about Thursday or Friday during the day? i hesitated because I was hoping for an evening but I said okay. He said we'll decide which day later in the week. I said "Well, this is a little awkward but Thursday is our anniversary. Did you remember?" He said "yeah, I remember." I asked if we were going to do anything or exchange cards because we are still married. After a long pause, he said "Let's just buy each other coffee."

Your H knows you are trying to get close to him again and that is fine, so pressuring a little...he can handle. however when you show him that you have expectations he can't meet (he is not prepared nor feels like giving you a card for the anniversary and if you ask him "are we going to do anything or exchange cards?" this sound as if he should be prepared or at least that you are expecting something he can't deliver. what i would do if i were you, i would try to meet him for cofee on a different day than the anniversary, just to take the pressure off him, because, as you said, it will be very hard not to talk about the M in your anniv. day.
If you can, talk to Steve Harley and he will tell you if there is a way to get to your H that is more effective. MMM, like me, you want to start seeing results right away, i can see that from your expectations about the anniversary. unfortunately these things take a loooonggggg time to resolve. before Hs can fall in love with us again it can take months or even years. we have to be prepared to go thru this with that in mind. otherwise we are going to go crazy.

I know . . .it is hard when you love someone so much and they are slipping away. I called to see how his bowling night went. . he didn't answer the cell phone so I left a message. We'll see if he calls back.

Do you think I really messed up with my H by mentioning the anniversary?

Also, I just filled out a request to meet with Steve Harley.

Yes, you did mess up a little there and the fact that he is not answering your calls might be a signal that he thinks that now there is going to be more anniversary or M talk. i see it everyday,as i mess up every day almost with my H. it is such a delicate balance and as soon as they feel we are trying to make them promise something or tie them to the M again in some way or the other...they pull away. I would not call him till he calls you. if you do call him is to tell him you can't make it for the coffe on THU. that is what i would do with my H if i were in your shoes.
it is good you will see Steve, if you call the office and say it is urgent they might even get you in the next day.

Oh Gen -- I really did mess up ! I am just a mess right now with anxiety and fear. I love my H so much and really am changing for real. The Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs make so much sense. I know we can build a better marriage than the one we had. . .if only he would just give this approach a try.

When I brought up the M and anniversary, I guess I thought the sentimentality of the day may soften his heart a bit. I guess not. . .

MMM the way you feel now is normal and it is the way we are going to feel many times during this attempt to restore our M.
I feel the same right now as i do not know how things are going to work out given that my H is so depressed and unrecognizable. i have to keep telling myself "yes i can do this, i can do this.." like a mantra almost.
but feelings can change and we do not have to have them sicken us and make us worry to the point where we keep messing up. you did pressure him a little too much...so what? do not focus on that right now but focus on what is next. you have a meeting with Harley and that is great. you have an edge compared to your H because you are getting help. should you talk to your H before you talk to Steve, i would suggest you do not apologize or bring up the anniversary incident again. the more you talk about it the more annoying is going to be for him. drop it completely and plan to see your H after you spoke to Steve. That is what i would do. but it is ultimately up to you to decide what's best.