How about... "you know what H? You're right. I did do that. It was wrong then and it would be wrong now, if either one of us did it. I'm not that person anymore. If you choose to keep hanging that over my head, that's your choice but I'm through paying for it. Don't you think that I above all others recognize the warning signs and red flags? What you did last night was a huge red flag. Prove me wrong. Take a polygraph and we'll put this to rest."

Hi eeyoree –

You’ve already apologized a lot for the past, right? So, now when he tries to use that as a trump card, you could say, “I’m not talking about two years ago, I’m talking about what’s happening right now.” (or any usable variation such as, “I’m not talking about what happened two years ago, I’m talking about what YOU did last night.”)

If he persists (which he will if that tactic has always worked before), just keep repeating, “I’m not talking about two years ago, I’m talking about what’s happening right now.” If he refuses to keep the conversation about the present situation, refuse to continue the conversation. Leave the room saying, “I cannot talk about this until the topic is not what happened two years ago, but what’s happening right now.”

I've had therapists suggest this method to me during various situations, and it has also been suggested to me by veteran teachers as a way to talk to teenagers (I'm a teacher) who keep trying to argue and get off the subject in the classroom. (Well, as a teacher, I cannot leave the room, but you get the picture - just keep repeating yourself if necessary.)

God bless,
Rose

P.S.

If you feel like he really needs to talk about two years ago, you can say, "We can talk about that in another conversation. Right now the subject is what happened last night."

I've always seen times like this as opportunities.

I think alot is going to depend on you holding your boundaries and how understanding you are.

When you take his trump card away you will take his control away. He is going to feel very insecure. Very vulnerable to you because of the A. Its not going to feel fair to him. He will see them as your consequences to your A.

Ultimately, he has the choice to recover the marriage or not. The information you share with him will give him guidelines to what the "agreement" is going to look like. The rules right now are when H is happy FWW is unhappy. You sacrifice your happiness and stay up all night so he can be happy. You are going to tell him that that isn't how you see marriage just like he doesn't see a marriage with a W who has an A.

He will bring up the A. You will need to give him the right to choose to recover. You will need to sell him that you can be a great wife and are working hard each day to be a great wife. You know he doesn't always agree. You will need to share with him your view of what the agreement to recover looks like to you. He then has a right to agree or disagree with that agreement. It is a choice he needs to make or to negotiate.

It will be his intelligence and yours that need to rule. He will be very emotional for awhile. It will be all the work you have done to date that will be on your side. It will be your sincerity that will be on your side. It will be your intelligence that will be on your side.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, everyone, they are very helpful

I was playing with radioactivity at work, so I couldn't get back to my computer at work

Anyways, I've tried phrases like PM and Rose has suggested in the past, but I suppose I am not persistent enough. He breaks me down when he just keeps trying-- which is why I suppose he does it. He knows he can (even if it is subconsciously). He is insistent that his behavior TODAY is DIRECTLY related to MY behavior 2 years ago, as if it is a direct cause and effect. Except it only works that way when its convenient for him (like now...). I know darned well, and I'm sure deep inside he knows that he has a free will choice, and I did not "make" him do any of this (as he likes to suggest in these situations... I "made" him this way, I "made" him do this that or the other thing-- as if he had no choice. Its silly.)

I'm going to be strong tonight. He doesn't get in until close to 10 pm, so I'm not sure if talking tonight is going to be much of an option. We'll see how we feel. I don't want to get into a knock-down drag out 3 hour conversation either, unless it is really productive.

Oh, and lucky me. My boss just left for the day and isn't coming back, so I'm pretty much free to go as soon as I wrap my work up here. I'm going to hurry it along as much as possible and try to get out early and go home and take a nap. I'm exhausted!

I know I need to be stronger, and I know I need to let my guilt go. He pulls out that card because he knows that using my own guilt against me is the easiest way to control me. He can screw up- royally, and if he pulls that card out, well then it doesn't matter anymore. I've forgiven him for some pretty big gaffes in the past year, pretty easily. He pulls the card, I retreat, tail between legs.

Yep, he's got all the control... I'm just his pawn.

I'm really curious how he's gonna be tonight...

E.

E-

I've been lurking and reading your posts for a while. I am a BH and really wish that my WW would be as de-fogged as you (if that's a term). I'm impressed with your knowledge and understanding of MB concepts and the effort you are putting in to apply them. Doesn't excuse the major mistake you made (and it was HUGE) but you shouldn't have to pay for it for the rest of your life either. Seems like you are willing to do the hard work (and have been for a while) that is required for Recovery.

Your husband is a master manipulator. I know because I used to be one as well. I've done exactly the same things and behaved exactly the same way in the past. He manipulated the entire situation last night. He knows he was wrong and his phone call in the middle of the night had only one purpose....to guage your level of anger. Damage control. Same thing with the IM's this morning...he is trying to guage your level of anger so he knows what he is up against. BTDT. He's trying to take some of the edge off so it will be easier to face you. He specifically said that he bought you a gift a few days ago so that you wouldn't know that he really bought it this morning as a way to help smooth over his transgression. I'm not saying he was with an OW last night but he was definitely up to no good. He is confident that he can pull his trump card out on you and get off the hook once again. You have taught him that this is how it works. He will continue to do this as long as you allow it. It's simple classic Conditioning. Pavlov's dogs.

A boundary is completely worthless unless there are consequences which you intend to enforce. It seems to me that you have set a boundary and either haven't communicated what the consequence is of crossing the boundary or are not willing to enforce that consequence. Either way the boundary is basically useless.

It's time for H to get his head out of his [censored] and step up to the plate. He's either in or he's out. He has had long enough to figure it out. Time for you to force his hand.

Mindshare

I agree 100% sadly, with the last poster -this is what I am trying to say also but they said it better!

I am sorry....if you have lived with a lifetime of his manipulation throughout your marriage, already, you may want to think how you can deal with it or if you want 10 more years of that.

Any news?

Hey eeyoree,

We're worried about you!! How's it going? Hope you're okay!!

eeyoree

Charlotte

Hey everyone!

Sorry I disappeared for a bit. I'm usually not around much on the weekends, and yesterday was a crazy busy day for me at work.

Here's the rest of the story:

I picked him up Friday from the airport, and was cool with him. I was exhausted, and he was too, he kept asking what was wrong, and was essentially kissing my butt, etc. I told him I was tired, and we needed to talk later, but I was too tired that night (true, plus I wanted to do some of my own snooping before I talked to him).

I guess I struggle with "consequences" for crossing my boundaries. I mean, with kids, its easy! You're grounded. No TV. No video games, etc etc etc. But what do you do with a spouse? I can't take the TV off of him, haha! Saturday I kept to myself most of the day... I was able to "verify" his story from the night he went MIA... at least verify who he went out to dinner with (two male clients), and was able to verify that they went to get sushi for dinner, and that they went out afterwards, at least to some bars... can't rule out that there wasn't a strip club involved in there somewhere (I doubt he'd turn that reciept in for reimbursement, -- but I tend to believe him when he says there wasn't. I dunno why, just doesn't seem he's lying this time, for some reason).

Saturday I explained to him why I was upset, and that the way he behaved was unacceptable to me. Again, it felt kinda stupid because he's not traveling again for awhile, so its kinda moot point.

Sunday I told him I was going to lunch and shopping with a friend. He went golfing with his buddies after I told him that.

I guess sometimes I struggle too because some of my "consequences" seem dangerously similar to independent behavior... which I'm supposed to be avoiding.

Yesterday he told me to be watching out for a package that he sent to me at work... I'm not sure what it is, I'm guessing an iPod (we got a new stereo with an iPod dock... but my iPod doesn't work with it-- its a really old iPod from when they first came out).

So, I don't know... I tend to believe his story, but that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't incredibly insensitive and rude. He apologized and told me that he had left his phone in his room, off because his buddies from home kept texting him and he had to pay for each text he got, so he just turned it off...

So that was my weekend. H actually is getting surgery tomorrow-- so, I am taking tomorrow off to take care of him. (outpatient surgery-- to fix some stuff in his sinuses nothing major, but he does have to go under anesthesia, so I'm sure it won't be fun)

I think he still knows he is on thin ice with me, he's been really "nice" the past few days. Yesterday he took a half day off work to go golfing... (he's a little obsessed...), and then came home and made dinner, and was all cuddly this morning.

I don't know. I do feel like I'm being manipulated, like mindshare said. I feel like the only time he acts like a "good husband" is when he knows he's in the dog house. And he does enough to get himself out, then goes back to being self serving again...

Sigh. This sucks...

E.

E-

I still feel you are being manipulated big time. If he was turning his cell phone off because of incoming texts don't you think he should have called you (or at least IM'd you) to let you know his phone would be off for the night and why? We could go around and around about this and analyze every detail of what he did but the bottom line is that he was dead wrong...he knew it before he did it...while he was doing it...and after he did it. He knew that he could smooth it over after the fact by being nice. You have taught him this strategy. I used to do the same exact thing. It's amazing to look at it from the outside and be able to see so clearly what is going on. He's going to play nice for a while to smooth things over and within a week or so you will be back here posting about his selfish behaviors and lack of commitment to the marriage that drive you crazy. You are in a rut! A never ending vicious cycle. Only you can decide when to jump off of this ride.

As for consequences, I understand you can't take the TV away. But, you have to decide what you will do the next time he does this? I'm pretty confident there will be a next time. So, will you move out if he does it again? Plan B? If so, then you need to communicate that to him right now. He needs to understand the severity of the situation and that you won't be putting up with that behavior again in the future. If you don't do this then you are once again reinforcing that when he does this you will be mad for a day or two but he can smooth it all over by being nice. Classic conditioning. Time to break that cycle.

Just my 2 cents....

Mindshare

I know it's hard to keep your mind from going 100MPH thinking of every wrong thing he/she could be doing. Sometimes were right and others were not. Personally I am more wrong then right. He might be telling the truth as far as who and where. He can still give you a call before hand and let you know that he will be unaviliable and when he will be back. How about tell the buddies to hold off until he gets back in town. You need to be able to reach him in case of an emergancy.

How would he handle you not answering the phone if you were out of town for a couple of nights?

Exactly. I think the problem at this point is not "what he was doing"-- maybe I'm being foolish, but I do believe his story. I was able to verify that he has sushi, with two men (clients) that evening, and that they then took him to a few bars. Again, can't be positive that he was with them for the ENTIRE evening, or that there wasn't at some point a strip club involved. But I do tend to believe him, for whatever reason. His story didn't make any red flags go up, and my gut says he was telling the truth.

The problem now is that he went about it very selfishly and did not think of me whatsoever. Yes, there are a TON of things he COULD have done differently-- taken his phone with him and left it on, borrowed someone else's, ran back to the room real fast to send an email/leave me an IM message to make contact... there's plenty you can think of. He chose to do none of those-- and that's the problem. But again, I feel like I can storm around about it, but its kinda a moot point. He's not traveling again for a long time-- and probably not out of the country again, if/when he does.

Yes, I have set up this dynamic, and I know that (that he does jerky things and then is nice to make up for them). And yes, I do need to have more strict consequences for this boundary if it is crossed again. We will re-visit the issue if/when he has to travel again.

I dunno. Its hard...

E.

It's NOT a moot point.
You set boundaries, he knew about them, he crossed them.
There need to be consequences.
If you fail to deliver the consequences, you're reinforcing that it's okay for him to behave selfishly and that all he needs to do is suck up and all will be forgiven.

I understand you can't take away his TV.
I'd go for the lie detector test.
Hit him in his pride, in his fear, and in his wallet.
I guarantee he'll think twice next time he's away from home, even if it's three years hence.

If you don't like the lie detector test, brainstorm on here and come up with something else. But the point is, crossing a boundary needs to have severe consequences. Otherwise it's not a boundary, it's a wish.

Fair enough. Brainstorm away! I'll keep the lie detector in mind, tho. I'm holding that one in my back pocket for now. Keep in mind that he is having surgery tomorrow too....

I pretty much avoided him all weekend and was "cool" with him. Sunday I did my own thing (lunch and shopping with a friend-- although he took this as an opportunity to go golfing with his buddies, so that one may have backfired a bit..). Other than that, I really struggle as to what "consequences" should be-- for a spouse. It just seems like the only "consequence" there is is separation of some sort (plan Bish) or D-- ich seems a tad bit dramatic in some cases?. There's not a whole lot else you can do as a consequence for your spouse?

Brainstorm away, because I'm really at a loss on the consequences part...


E.

Update:

H had surgery yesterday. I took the day off to take him for the surgery. He seemed OK at first... was woozy when we first got home (outpatient surgery)... but steadily went downhill last night as the anesthesia wore off.

I stayed home with him all day, made him homemade chicken noodle soup, and pretty much waited on him while he was on the couch all day.

After we went to bed, he was in immense amounts of pain and couldn't sleep. I stayed up with him, and at 2 am when he went to take a bath because he was in too much pain, I went into the bathroom with him and laid next to the tub, half asleep, and held his hand while he was soaking.

He fell asleep after that, for a bit, until 6 am. I got up and made him some breakfast, before I had to come into work (I had no choice...)... but I am going to leave early. And before I left I stopped at the grocery store, bought him more gatorade and a card, and dropped it off at the house for him. He's at home playing video games, and I've been talking to him online.

Last night before he fell asleep tho, he was really appreciative of all that I was doing for him, telling me thank you over and over again and that I had been great all day. He tossed in there that "maybe this will be good for us". I was confused by that... didn't know what he was getting at (had an idea, but didn't want to assume)... pretty much he said that maybe me taking care of him and him being incapacitated would help him get over some of his issues with all that's happened and get back on track.

He was pretty tired at that point, and was pretty hopped up on percocet... but still, I took that as a positive.

Just a quick update. I'm exhausted today from taking care of him all day yesterday... but it was worth it

E.