EO,

I love how you are aware of all his changes...not overlooking or discounting. You're stills studying, learning, striving first to understand.

Don't mix that up with approval, 'k? Understanding is accepting he thinks he can't do this anymore. Do not assume he means the same thing each time. It's his, EO...and he may mean different stuff with that same phrase. His, not yours, not the marriage.

He's doing and not doing. He may feel, believe he can't keep doing the same thing and expecting different results...means he may change his expectations. He's still there, doing marriage.

Stay present.

Listen to understand...repeat. So he can hear what you are hearing, 'k?

Those words were terrifying to hear from my DH, too. I remember. Shakes that fear of abandonment like an earthquake in me. Had to re-focus on his actual choices...not his wishfulness...hear who he was wishing this wasn't happening, stuff he wished he hadn't done or did, sharing with me...not threatening. About him.

When you want to touch, state, don't demonstrate. "I feel the urge to act affectionately to you right now. I want to comfort you. I hear you feel almost tortured, worn out. I hear you saying you hear me as very critical of you, saying you're bad or wrong as a person, unfair and cruel."

Focus on getting it correctly...not making it right, 'k?

As humans, we can say and do cruel things...we have cruelty in us, for a reason...from fear. Remember? Do you hear the very young kid in his words, "I don't know, are you?" Did you pursue that in MC, to find out what is yelling to him? Beyond volume, tone, body language?

To some, clenching your hands, crossing your arms, is yelling...throws them right back to parental verbal abuse when they were young...when they were blocking out words, and taking the tone, the stance, as hits to their bodies and minds.

We hurt (cruel) to get the other person to stop hurting us.

Radical honesty takes intimacy to a new level...sometimes the most loving words you can say during conflict is "Wow, I really want to hurt you right now. I'm feeling really hurt, as if you're doing it to me."

When you both truly drop the fight to see who is the real bad guy...and don't see the other with fangs or with halos...then you'll experience the other as the equal they already are...that their struggle with themselves is to be known, not solved by you...the very act of sharing is intimacy, connective, be it through conflict, comfort or presence...all of it matters.

What does MC say about his fixation on SoCal? I'm wondering now if it isn't the Eldorado delusion...the old "where bowers of flowers bloom in the sun" the perfect place is the solution for all the pain inside...location, location, location (not to be sarcastic), where if onlys and what ifs are realities.

And you know this isn't real...that Eldorado is the gold in your family...and him going without his family may be what it takes...where your Plan B is very reasonable, an act of love. Of acceptance (not approval) that this is what he chooses...not about you (and that hurts)...think of A's as choosing Eldorado (a person, not a place, no less unreal) over his marriage.

Because he is...and it doesn't say one thing about how much he really loves you and his family. Takes what it takes to break apart fantasy...especially a deeply held belief...

And I wonder if it ties into the years before he met you...for this Eldorado lasts and lasts...it's a coping refuge which comes to destroy twice as much as it originally comforted, seemingly saved. Very hard to let go of...again, what we practice, we become...you know so well practicing worrying, is identical to living in the what ifs and the if onlys.

Don't live there, EO. Stay present and aware, going for clarity...to know and be known, not to fix, save or cure. If you don't, then you'll struggle as much as he is with cause...you causing him/him causing you...which doesn't end. We both know how that loop is endless. And oddly, we can feel closer to our partners when we participate in the same struggle inside...feels like sharing.

It isn't. Not unless you own your own struggle. Another way to dupe ourselves.

You weren't more detached when angry...when you're clear, really clear, you aren't owning anything that isn't yours, not making anyone a bad guy, finding fault, playing blame...you're clear on his stuff from your own. So similar. Still separate.

Be more loving to yourself when you check your half...when you check your perception and catch yourself HOPING he'll say again what he's said before, so then you can say, "I read this in a book..." because you'll hear in your heart, "Ah, I'm setting myself up, my DH up and hitting my marriage, aren't I?" When you catch yourself, and I know you do and you will, understand how much you make him give you permission to share or not share, be or not be, feel or not feel, think or not think...it's a no-lose partnership, EO. You'll love really well, no matter the outcome. Include yourself.

He feels intimacy means access to his most hurtful buttons...that you are under his skin and it hurts. Can you hear him saying this and conveying his fear of intimacy, what it represents to him? Doesn't mean that's what he's saying anymore than how you're choosing to perceive him putting it back on you. He feels hurt and chooses to believe you're doing it during conflict.

He can truly feel incredible anxiety and pain during conflict.

You know that. Doesn't mean you're doing it. Means you're doing conflict with him. I think it hurts in you, too. Maybe a little Eldorado there, too, pertaining to perfect relationships, not locations, maybe?

How many thoughts do you have beginning with ifs? "If he loved me, he wouldn't" "If he loved me, he would" "If he didn't say it that way" "If he would feel this way"?

You can ask him calmly, interestedly, "I feel bit by your saying "____" and I wondered if that's why I see you with fangs in my mind. I'm making you the bad guy right now instead of letting you know I took you to mean <blank>." Do you fear knowing him wholly, equally, and totally separate from yourself? To not reach into his stuff, like that's a drug you don't want to give up yet?

For three years you've learned and made healthier boundary enforcements...how's the DJ one coming along? I have no doubt you are not the person you were, and you won't go back to what you did before permanently...you've experienced deeper intimacy, self-respect and love. That's my perception. Yes, temporarily...especially when you're not getting the outcome you want, when you want it and in the way you want it...and then you catch yourself. I know you do, EO.

Because you love the freedom of real responsibility...and when you spiral, you aren't really, 'k? That's the old fears acting as if you hadn't faced them, didn't hold and understand them...and not act from them again. You aren't really falling.

Catch yourself, anyway, 'k?

Awareness. See what old permissions are being allowed again, just like in the past, and you'll see where you asked for them to come in again, where you've lied to yourself and you feel incredibly lied to, mislead, double-dealt.

You're prepared...which is great. Stop anticipating...go back to clarity and understanding. You've got backup plans.

We have rough moments...don't make them into days, 'k? Don't talk yourself into judging as if it will protect you or explain you...because when you do that, cruelty comes along with judgment..."he ruined my day when he said"...I think that's part of what you're missing...for in that day your DDs were funny and tender...and the sky took your breath...each for a moment...

a day is day...full of 86,400 moments (okay, seconds, but a moment isn't a real measurement ).

Which is why I believe what you're experiencing right now is fully within God's plan, even though you can't see it completely, your DDs are learning to address conflict, not avoid it...what it is to act from respect instead of react to fear...bit by bit...it's like we can only see a few of the threads right now as God sees the complete fabric.

That book...what humans do when the choose to react to fear...does it include how to choose to act from love? Keep in mind when you dwell in his cruel statements, that you are replaying them...not him. What we say, we cannot take back and cannot control the other person from living as if we are still saying them when we are not...and we lose sight that those who react to their fear constantly live in a climate of fear, sometimes greatly and other times, less so...and crave living in love. Constantly.

I remember. And it took to me getting to where I couldn't do it anymore to stop.

LA

{{{ ears }}}

You've got mail.

*hugs*

Thanks, cat. Myabe that's normal, to go back and forth between denial and acceptance. I got busy at work, and feel a lot better. Productive, like I'm going to be okay.

Jayne, thanks for the email!

LA, thanks for being here today.

Do not assume he means the same thing each time. It's his, EO...and he may mean different stuff with that same phrase. His, not yours, not the marriage.
Stay present.

Listen to understand...repeat. So he can hear what you are hearing, 'k?

When I ask what he means, he gets angry. I get it, though, reading your post. I can't keep him here for the MC peiod. If he wants to leave, get angry, before then, he will.

Those words were terrifying to hear from my DH, too. I remember. Shakes that fear of abandonment like an earthquake in me. Had to re-focus on his actual choices...not his wishfulness...hear who he was wishing this wasn't happening, stuff he wished he hadn't done or did, sharing with me...not threatening. About him.

LA, I wanted to ask you about this. You had a timeline, then went to in-home plan B. How did you determine your timeline? I'm thinking I've gone too long sometimes already. The saddest is laying at night next to H, here yet not here. I hear you, the reality is that he is here. To stay present.


When you want to touch, state, don't demonstrate. "I feel the urge to act affectionately to you right now. I want to comfort you. I hear you feel almost tortured, worn out. I hear you saying you hear me as very critical of you, saying you're bad or wrong as a person, unfair and cruel."

Focus on getting it correctly...not making it right, 'k?

I got you on the touching part. On the restating when he's angry, he talks and barks over me when I speak. It feels disrespectful to myself to stay in the room while he's doing this.


Did you pursue that in MC, to find out what is yelling to him? Beyond volume, tone, body language?

No. He says that I am horribly abusive, at his throat. LA, I don't even raise my voice to him anymore. I walk away when I feel angry. It feels like a waste of time to disagree with him, to get to a he said she said. I say it once, and let her think what she wants to. The MC does ask, how does he feel? And he keeps saying, like we just can't live in a normal house. I don't believe him, LA, that he believes what he is saying. I believe that he is using this as another way to abuse me.

I'll be back later.

As humans, we can say and do cruel things...we have cruelty in us, for a reason...from fear.

And from permisions. LA, if he get mistreated at work, and comes home and verbally kicks me, that doesn't mean that fear is about me, about a trigger to my actions. So I did bring it up in MC, but we're not getting anywhere today with that. Maybe somewhere that I don't see yet. He does bounce back from anger episodes more quickly. Doesn't demand me to apologize every time. Is willing to break the ice first. But if I'm not totally delighted at his return from anger, he turns on me again.

To some, clenching your hands, crossing your arms, is yelling...throws them right back to parental verbal abuse when they were young...when they were blocking out words, and taking the tone, the stance, as hits to their bodies and minds.

We hurt (cruel) to get the other person to stop hurting us.

I understand this. Doesn't make it acceptable. The MC gives us tools. She says to dialogue when there is a disagreement, but H won't do that at home. I tell him how his intimidation makes me feel in MC. I go through first, second third boundary enforcements.


Radical honesty takes intimacy to a new level...sometimes the most loving words you can say during conflict is "Wow, I really want to hurt you right now. I'm feeling really hurt, as if you're doing it to me."

When you both truly drop the fight to see who is the real bad guy...and don't see the other with fangs or with halos...then you'll experience the other as the equal they already are...that their struggle with themselves is to be known, not solved by you...the very act of sharing is intimacy, connective, be it through conflict, comfort or presence...all of it matters.

How does he listen and repeat in MC, and then go home and continues to treat me like this? I don't understand. I think it's rage and entitlement. I don't know.

What does MC say about his fixation on SoCal?

I'm going to ask her. She hasn't really said.

I'm wondering now if it isn't the Eldorado delusion...the old "where bowers of flowers bloom in the sun" the perfect place is the solution for all the pain inside...location, location, location (not to be sarcastic), where if onlys and what ifs are realities.

Or if it's another way to keep me off balance, a distraction; I don't know.

And you know this isn't real...that Eldorado is the gold in your family...and him going without his family may be what it takes...where your Plan B is very reasonable, an act of love. Of acceptance (not approval) that this is what he chooses...not about you (and that hurts)...think of A's as choosing Eldorado (a person, not a place, no less unreal) over his marriage.

Because he is...and it doesn't say one thing about how much he really loves you and his family. Takes what it takes to break apart fantasy...especially a deeply held belief...

And I wonder if it ties into the years before he met you...for this Eldorado lasts and lasts...it's a coping refuge which comes to destroy twice as much as it originally comforted, seemingly saved. Very hard to let go of...again, what we practice, we become...you know so well practicing worrying, is identical to living in the what ifs and the if onlys.

LA, did you read the "You're Special" on GQII? H was emotionally abusive in previous LTRs, before me. Why did I think I was special, different? H is not broken in any way, but he gives himself permissions, justifications. I have done that, too, very human. But there's another path. I don't need to stay broken down here. I can mourn what was lost and move on. I hope to join up with H again up ahead. I am so sad knowing that I am powerless to do more.

Don't live there, EO. Stay present and aware, going for clarity...to know and be known, not to fix, save or cure. If you don't, then you'll struggle as much as he is with cause...you causing him/him causing you...which doesn't end. We both know how that loop is endless. And oddly, we can feel closer to our partners when we participate in the same struggle inside...feels like sharing.

It isn't. Not unless you own your own struggle. Another way to dupe ourselves.

I hear you, LA. I'm finding every day where I've fallen short, make amends, keep going.

You weren't more detached when angry...when you're clear, really clear, you aren't owning anything that isn't yours, not making anyone a bad guy, finding fault, playing blame...you're clear on his stuff from your own. So similar. Still separate.

When I was feeling more "fed up", I didn't see losing him as something in the present so much, more something that I'd already lost.


Be more loving to yourself when you check your half...when you check your perception and catch yourself HOPING he'll say again what he's said before, so then you can say, "I read this in a book..." because you'll hear in your heart, "Ah, I'm setting myself up, my DH up and hitting my marriage, aren't I?" When you catch yourself, and I know you do and you will, understand how much you make him give you permission to share or not share, be or not be, feel or not feel, think or not think...it's a no-lose partnership, EO. You'll love really well, no matter the outcome. Include yourself.

I hear you seeing me as setting up myself for disappointment here, trying to prove to myself that I am RIGHT in my choices. That I chose to be boxed in, holding the key the whole time. I know that I sometimes anticipate a reaction where I don't get one. But that is not because I want to box myself in. It is a coping skill for a PRESENT where I am fighting against control. This isn't reacting solely to childhood demons with no danger in the present. This is someone who is in the present trying different ways to harm me. I am trying to balance staying long enough to give my marriage a chance to recover, to identifying when to go because staying longer is harming what's left. Not false payoffs.

He feels intimacy means access to his most hurtful buttons...that you are under his skin and it hurts. Can you hear him saying this and conveying his fear of intimacy, what it represents to him?

He says me expressing any displeasure is me pressing his buttons. A DJ.


He can truly feel incredible anxiety and pain during conflict.

You know that. Doesn't mean you're doing it. Means you're doing conflict with him. I think it hurts in you, too.

LA, he has tools, living skills, from MC, and chooses not to use them. I didn't always either. But I own my mistakes, and make amends.

Maybe a little Eldorado there, too, pertaining to perfect relationships, not locations, maybe?

I wanted a lifetime with H. My kids' dad, with the man I took vows with, to love and to be loved. A lot of room for imperfection in there. A soft place to fall.

How many thoughts do you have beginning with ifs?

Yes, LA, you got me! If he loved me, if he wanted to make a life with me, I would know, because he wouldn't laugh at me, make fun of me, stonewall me. Love doesn't hurt. Yes, I read that in a book, but it makes sense. My kids, if I say "Ouch," they may say sorry, they may ask what's wrong. They don't sneer at me, belittle and mock me.

Do you fear knowing him wholly, equally, and totally separate from yourself?

Yes, I do, when he's in Attack mode. Backing away is boundary enforcement. Healthy. When he's safer, it becomes clear.

For three years you've learned and made healthier boundary enforcements...how's the DJ one coming along?

LA, I hear you asking me if I believe that I am DJing my H, making him out to be a bad guy in my mind, instead of seeing the human underneath? I do love the man underneath, deeply. I go to great lengths to spend time with him, while I can. I make plans with other folks with H, invite other folks along on date nights, so I can see that man. The one who doen't poke at me and then get angry when I say it hurts.


Awareness. See what old permissions are being allowed again, just like in the past, and you'll see where you asked for them to come in again, where you've lied to yourself and you feel incredibly lied to, mislead, double-dealt.

You're prepared...which is great. Stop anticipating...go back to clarity and understanding. You've got backup plans.

I hear you saying it's time to pull the pin, find out if this is an active grenade, or one in my imagination? I think I agree.



Which is why I believe what you're experiencing right now is fully within God's plan, even though you can't see it completely, your DDs are learning to address conflict, not avoid it...what it is to act from respect instead of react to fear...bit by bit...it's like we can only see a few of the threads right now as God sees the complete fabric.

I do experience joy in my days, too, and the kids are seeing good stuff, too, thanks for the reminder.


That book...what humans do when the choose to react to fear...does it include how to choose to act from love?

The Gaslight one does, describes visualizing your future, in detail, have you read it? Cool stuff. I didn't finish the other one yet.

Keep in mind when you dwell in his cruel statements, that you are replaying them...not him. What we say, we cannot take back and cannot control the other person from living as if we are still saying them when we are not...and we lose sight that those who react to their fear constantly live in a climate of fear, sometimes greatly and other times, less so...and crave living in love. Constantly.

I remember. And it took to me getting to where I couldn't do it anymore to stop.

LA, I've gotta replay the old frames a little bit, because Denial is a strong thing. I still catch myself minimizing, have to remember that it's really clear, not obfuscated.

jayne, you asked some great questions. I'm going to an extra meeting, and will be back to reply.

Ears,

I'm sorry. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think you should LEAVE.

I think your husband treats you terribly.

You told me in recent months that it seemed like things were going better for me, and I was angry and hurt at the time, and painted a pretty bleak picture.

Truth is, things are going much better for us. We have our setbacks, but there are times of huge breakthroughs on BOTH of our parts... Now that our stressful lifestyle is past, we have many moments of happiness.

Sure, my husband isn't the most playful person, and sometimes he does some things that hurt my feelings--and we don't have sex.

But I continue to be convinced that we have been brought together for a purpose. i see us both periodically experiencing levels of discovery about ourselves through our marriage, and I know my H really wants to be married to me and wants me to be happy.

Does your husband want you to be happy? Not "CAN HE MAKE YOU HAPPY" (because sometimes men just can't get it together to give women what they need... but does he WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY?!

It doesn't sound like it to me.

You can't hug him and kiss him and pat him on the shoulder while he's getting ready to leave town, because it's CROWDING HIM?!

I think he's been a jerk for a long long time, and I think you should leave him on that basis alone.

And as if that isn't enough--he is probably having an affair (at least an EA). That would explain him feeling crowded.

Earsopen, I am all about sticking it out and making it work. You know I am. But I don't get it.

You deserve better. Being by yourself would be BETTER than being with this man.

(In my opinion). I think you deserve better, I really do.

(((EArs))))

Telly, thanks for the support, it means a lot.

Does your husband want you to be happy? Not "CAN HE MAKE YOU HAPPY" (because sometimes men just can't get it together to give women what they need... but does he WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY?!

Telly, he says, "Why can't you just wake up and be happy." I think that he does want me to be happy, but he doesn't want me to ask him for things as a part of that. I should be happy with whatever it is that he's offering.

You can't hug him and kiss him and pat him on the shoulder while he's getting ready to leave town, because it's CROWDING HIM?!

It isn't all the time that he gets mad at me. Sometimes he likes it. Sometimes he givs me a hug or a kiss. I was hoping that we would work past that.

I don't know about the EA thing. I don't have a "gut feel" that that's what it is in the present.

Being by yourself would be BETTER than being with this man.
Telly, it took me a while to believe this. Because there have been good times, too. But I agree with you. I know that marriage is a people-growing machine. Maybe this is the direction I needed to grow, to take scarier actio than I ever imagined.

What was he talking about when he said he couldn't "do this anymore"? Was it just you showing him some physical affection and he took that as crowding, or was there some argument?

I came home for lunch, and he was telling me a story, laughing. And then I told him one. Halfway through, he asked meto repeat it, because he hadn't been listening. I went to another room, and then came back, and told him, I'm angry that he wasn't listening to me. He'd told me that he wasn't listening before, many times, and I'm mad that I keep forgetting, and talk to him as if he were listening. He started telling me that he does that at work, too, pretend to lisen, and I said, but I don't expect (there's that word again!) that at home, and that was it, just those three sentences. That was it for him. I was not trying to provoke him, I checked my intent, and thought it would be better to respectfully speak up in the moment.

He yelled at me until I left to go back to work, saying I am constantly complaining about him every day, and can't we can't go one day without going for each other's throats. And on and on, about how we can't raise the kids in such a sick environment, and I'm just like his mther that I can't just be happy.


It's hard, I thought there was some improvement so it's hard to accept...
That's what's hard, is that we have good days, too.

It sounds like you are Plan A'ing him, right? And you intend to leave him with a great last impression?
Not a great one, to be honest. I do what I can. I leave the house when it gets too much, then he says I'm never home and I make a sick environment. Even when he leaves, it is because of this sick environment he says.

Hi ears,

Thanks for the answers... One thing Telly said, and I can't speak for what she intended, but here's my impression:


IMHO him saying "Why can't you just wake up and be happy" isn't the same as him wanting you to be happy... as in, he wants you to be happy so that you will be happy. It's more like, he wants you to be happy, or at least act happy, so you'll stop bugging him... KWIM?


Whoa! That is quite the AO... and to go from telling you a story and laughing, to being set off like that, sounds pretty scary to me.

The part about accusing you of being just like his mother speaks volumes IMHO. Sounds like he's projecting. In which case, you can't win, right? He's going to think what he wants to think.

Isn't there an article somewhere about hair triggers?

*hugs*

The sometimes good/sometimes bad business is crazy-making. I can certainly see how hard this decision must be.

As you sit with your decision, and get used to it, do you begin to feel more at peace with it?

Jayne, you know I try to be honest as possible here, but that's a pretty big thing to say, "it's over for now," if I'm not sure I mean it. So I have been sitting on this decision for a while now, and it has been getting reinforced more and more. Especially the last few rounds of work travel, where I've been doing well on my own with the kids. Cooking for them instead of fast food. And keeping the place tidy. That was a big fear to me. I used to be a very messy person, in my room at a teen, and I see like on FlyLady and Clean House and even with friends how grown-ups fill houses with junk, and I was afraid that I'd be one of those people, doing that to my kids. Especially with the depression that I used to have. If H wasn't here to holler at me, would I keep it nice? I still have this fear, but I've addressed it. Like Cat's 15 minutes in the evening, that works really well for us.

I was going to comment about his 'you're just like my mother' statement, too. That is REALLY important. Did you read Emotional Alchemy? I don't remember who recommended it. It talks about the patterns we set up as children to get us through childhood fears, we continue to use them as adults simply because they've been reinforced over time, and since it's what we did the most, it's the first in line to automatically pop up as a solution. Anyway, his opinion of his mother - that's a BIG thing. You know that. If his mom didn't give him unconditional love, if she expected more from him than he could give, if she was critical...all those things that can make us doubt or hate ourselves.

Your parents' love and how they raise you - the biggest influence on you for your entire life. If it's filled with angst, as it sounds like for him, he'll never get past it. At least not without hitting rock bottom and/or real counseling. He'll spend the rest of his life making up for not getting what he needed from his parents. And because you're the only safe person in his life, it's you who gets his crap about it.

You know that's the same thing with me. Because H's mother made him become the father and gave him ALL the responsibilities, he hates women because they always want from him (in his mind). So anything I want (or even just need) is just him replaying his mother in his head - and he rebels now because I'm safe to say no to.

What I'm getting at is that it is not something you can just put behind you. It will (and has) permeate everything in your relationship. Men marry their mothers, so you're screwed.

Unless your leaving makes him hit rock bottom, I guess. I don't see any other way.

But I do know that kids hate living in such an environment. My D18 actively says now how much she enjoys being with me without H around, and actively tries to create situations in which he won't be included. They're pretty intuitive. I honestly think once you're away from him, and your house gets filled with fun and laughter and less stress, your kids will blossom.

Cat, that book is next on my list, fits really well with what we've been doing in MC. My MiL used to stir up trouble, like at family gatherings, asking questions and saying things that would embarass people. You could see that as blowing the cover off of the hypocrisy. Or as airing dirty laundry in public. She addressed things that I was wondering, too. That I wanted to know were resolved, but was afraid they were not, so I didn't ask.

Of course, she turned her spotlight on me, too, spreading her assumptions, that were often mistaken, as fact. Like that I left my kids around my abusive stepfather, which I never did. But I understand the concern underneath that, and it would have been helpful to address her concern and ask respectfully, instead of assuming. Like they suggest in Dance of Anger or policy of radical honesty.

So I understand the gist of what H is saying, can't we just gloss over and accept everything just the way it is? The way we used to?

and he rebels now because I'm safe to say no to.

I'm safe to say no to, too. Thoughtful Request, not demand. No need to be angry, to rebel. But I'd like to keep brainstorming, together. There may be answers we haven't thought of yet. H gets frustrated with the brainstorming sometimes. Even though we can get to great solutions over time. Like DD12 going to the nutritionist. She went from cholesterol 220 to 180 since last spring when I wrote about it. And she's back from 75th %ile to 50%th for weight, and gaining in height.

I hear you about your daughter with the one-on-one time. My kids and I love that time, too. They like doing stuff with their Dad, too. They used to do some cool stuff, like go this place on the edge of the everglades and watch the alligator who lived there. The alligator was always trying to get the bait from the people who were fishing LOL. There is a pier folks fish off of, and then when he swims closer everybody runs back, or scares him back away.

It did used to get VERY down in the house sometimes when H travelled, when my depression was bad. But now, we do a lot of fun things, and the kids and I have friends over. We used to go out more, but we felt bad leaving the new dog, so we'll brainstorm some places to take her, too. For now, we take her on long walks, with DD7 on the bike. I do believe that we'll be okay. Financially, we'll need to cut way back on some things, but we've done that before when we've needed to, and don't really feel it much.

Well, if it helps, I'm a big believer that those with a lot of money are more miserable than those who have to watch their pennies. It forces you to focus on what's really important, ya know?

When he went off about your "I expect you to at home" statement, why did you stay home for the rest of your lunch hour?

LA

LA, I thought about what you said, about sharing my O&H when I want to hurt him. I saw him this morning, brushing his teeth, and in that moment I had an impulse to hurt him, to grab him suddenly by his shoulders and scare him with my anger, to show him how that feels, to be unexpectedly intimidated like that. To appeal to his humanity, to get the message across that it needs to stop.

I thought about being O&H in that moment, how effortless it sounded in your post, to explain how I felt anger, too, that I get those same impulses to hurt that he does. That those feelings don't make us "good" or "bad," how that's a normal emotion. That we have the responsibility to choose what to do with that anger. Use it as a signal, or as a justification.

And I chose not to share. I chose to detach. I checked my intent, and it was for my emotional safety. In MC, I can share that, that I do feel anger and the urge to hurt him, too.

Maybe that's why he treats me the way he does, to get me to see how deeply wounded he is, to make it stop, for good.

Yesterday, I froze for a minute, and then I did leave to go back to work. It was almost time to go anyway. In the past, many times I have stayed and argued, angry that he thought he could shut me up.

We have an MC session Saturday. The MC is out of town, but when she comes back Thursday, I'm going to call her and explain. I have not explained in MC how pervasive this is, and that I feel I need to change course here. I thought I could stick it out longer, and it wasn't this bad every day like this. H has calmed down this morning, and if it stays drastically more calm, I could finish out the rest of the time before going to Plan B. Unless he leaves first. But I want to run through my back up plan with her, too.

I'm going to take a run at this again. I was thinking of you on the way home from work, about the not listening incident.

Do I sound to you and others (please chime in) as if I'm excusing or dismissing his behavior? Explaining it away?

I wondered and I prayed for clarity...so here goes.

Two things...he told you the truth...reinforced that permissions don't go one way...that two way street...why would you expect him to listen to you when he says he doesn't listen, sometimes, at work, either, or at home?

And your expectation was that he would make sure to listen to you.

So when he didn't, your anger was the flare after the pain...was it feeling unworthy, erased...like when you were young...not being heard, and not speaking? Right in your core pain in one sentence?

I ask because I heard in my head at the same time I pondered this...that if you choose to make his statements about you...if you choose to listen and repeat FOR HIM, not for you, you're going to keep hurting, EO.

I don't want you to hurt, ever. Hear that?

And I heard "You're Special" and you know what came next? "It's Not About You."

My rewrite for within marriage:


That's close...I hope.

When we are little, we are taught we are the cause, control and cure...that what we experience is our fault, in our control; we are told it is about us...when it isn't.

And not told when it is...if their anger is our fault; then our anger is their fault (or someone else's who is safer).

We are taught the anger is toxic, not the people who act out in anger. In lust. In fear. In pain.

Our anger is ours...so we make it about us.

It's ours and it's not about us.

You're not alone, EO. Listen and repeat is for YOUR clarity, respect, love and awareness. Not a gift to him...so when he doesn't do it, he's denying himself, too.

He isn't loving himself well or truly...so why would you expect him to do so with you right now?

Loving detachment is making your choices and knowing it's not about you...and what is solely yours. That balance gets tipped...triggered...we're right there again...though we are not.

No explaining away. No excusing or dismissing, 'k? You hurt. It's your pain.

When he said he wasn't listening to you after you listened to him...did you hear "If he loved me he would be interested in what I have to share?" That's you. That's about you. He was radically honest...and I don't know the tone, don't know what you take as ridicule or mockery, for in your recount of his words, there was none...

hear it...

"You know I do this and yet you expect me not to do this."

Again, acceptance is not approval. Last stage of grieving that image you had of him (not the whole, the critical parts).

If he's choosing to not do at home what he does in MC, see the choice, not the whys...you don't know them. You can't have it both ways...that he'll do it one place and the other...and it's okay he doesn't listen at work and you expect him to listen at home, every time.

Sometimes he listens. Sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he shares. Sometimes he doesn't. He's himself everywhere, all the time. No one-ways.

And it's not about you.

LA

Do I sound to you and others (please chime in) as if I'm excusing or dismissing his behavior? Explaining it away?

LA, what I felt yesterday was a reminder that I was failing. Failing at the one thing that it's not okay to fail at. Failing at something that a lot of people take and run with with better results, coming back from being more broken down, with more obstacles, and in less time. That if I wasn't so aware about how I was failing, that I wouldn't hurt so much. I felt defensive. I have a responsibility to navigate this better.

I'm failing my kids.
Failing my dreams for myself and our family.
Failing my H.
Failing you all. Because this is a plan that did work for me, when I was working it better.
Failing where I had tools to do better. Tools that I had been doing better with. I have friends in Alanon that live a lifetime with abusive, adulterous, alcoholic spouses, yet their lives are full of joy. They found boundaries that work.

I heard, "if you were just working your 50% better, Nina, it wouldn't hurt so much. You used to be better at this. If you were calmer, more open, more at peace, he wouldn't react to you that way. Who would want to open up to someone looking to demonize them?"

Doesn't mean that's what you said. I was already feeling that way. You remind me of the hope that I carry. That I carried. I'm not refuting you, LA. I have a hard time accepting that there is this hope yet reason not to hope at the same time. We WERE doing well, so well, and now it's so different.

I am having a hard time imagining telling my kids. I talked to H this morning, told him that I understand that his job is wrapping up here, and that the next ones are far away. That I'm done respectfully persuading him to try to find somethign in town. I thought I could tell the kids, dad had to ravel for work. They have been through that already, wouldn't question. Something he had already decided. Not me failing. After I said that, he says, no, he plans to look here, too, and see what he finds.

Changing the options. He already told family and neighbors, "Nina just doesn't understand that I'm going to have to go away when this is done. She's so out of touch with reality." And today, when I am ready for him to go, he says this other thing.

Two things...he told you the truth...reinforced that permissions don't go one way...that two way street...why would you expect him to listen to you when he says he doesn't listen, sometimes, at work, either, or at home?

Because that's the flow of conversation. I forget. I have conversations with him all the time, and forget that he tunes me out sometimes. Until it is really obvious again. I have asked him if he would make it a point to listen in, and he's said yes before.


So when he didn't, your anger was the flare after the pain...was it feeling unworthy, erased...like when you were young...not being heard, and not speaking? Right in your core pain in one sentence?

I didn't connect it yesterday. My mom would snap at me to pipe down, when the opening news was coming on. H does this, too.

LA, thank you for reaching out to me, even when I still get so steeped in outward focus. I reread your post, and the It's Not About You. Have you thought about adding that to that thread? I reread my post to you, the one full of defensiveness. Saw how outward focused I was. How that focus distracts me from my inner stength.

I think I do get what you are saying, today, LA. That I do have what it takes to live in integrity and not get swallowed up in outward circumstances. I feel a lot less overwhelmed today.

I was thinking through what my next steps are for separation, rereading the articles. I have a Plan B letter in my head that I will write out this evening. I am thinking that it would make sense to attempt to discuss this separation together. Especially because we are able to discuss things somewhat respectfully together in the MC office. As far as planning visitation, finances, who will be where. I left a message for the MC, and I'm hoping to hear back soon.

The last (and first) time I discussed separation with H I think was around 3 years ago. He wasn't angry. Kind of dismissed it. I don't remember why I relented. I'm going to go back this weekend and read my journal and see if I find it. But my point is I'm not fearing a backlash for this.

His hostility to me went away the last few days, so it's been alot easier. He's been under the gun at work, and I've been doing well with keeping up with things here.