I understand about an apology meaning less if you have to ask for it. This was a big probelm for me as well. I hated having to ask for it. And you are perfectly right about the "Im sorry if I hurt you" apology. It is not owning up to what she has done at all. It is placing the blame back on you.

My point in all of this is that she simply may not know how to apologize. I know my H didnt. He is much better but it is still not what I need, even now.

Ive struggled plenty with the unfairness of it all. This topic came up recently with us. My H got to go out and have an A, be admired, have someone fawn all over him and I got to be the one holding us together, working 50 hours a week, taking care of kids, meeting his EN, cleaning the house, cooking and yard work. All whilehe was off having fun. What did I get? I got the pain of betrayal.

My H, on the other hand - sees things differently. While he agrees he got to have the A, he also says he lost his self respect, his integrity, and most importantly - MY respect for him. He says that he lives every day with the knowledge that he hurt the person he loves most in the world almost beyond repair, and that he has to live with the fear of me deciding I cant take it anymore and leaving him.

So, I guess WS dont have it so great, either.

JK,

I see what you are saying. I am not seeing the side of the betrayer. I can imagine that it hurts her to look at what she did, especially since I have been doing a passable plan A for 10 years and whatever I was not doing that contributed to the A is long forgotten.

In her letter she doesn't find any fault in me at all. She takes all the blame because she just wanted to be single and have fun. She admits that put me in the position of single father for a long time. She said she is ashamed of herself.

I really truly wish I could get rid of this and be with someone and be happy. Maybe we could agree to just stay together and do our best to raise the kids, she did betray them too. Then we can go our own ways. We could be nice to each other while we are doing it.


I think I need to go spar some more today, even though I am very sore.

I did call the Psych on the phone. He just said It is normal to be angry, and he doesn't medicate normal. We are going to meet and talk on Friday as schedule.

6,
You are feeling 10 years of suppressed hurt and anger. It was there festering all the time, only you didn't allow yourself to feel it.
I think your hurt and anger is healthier than your plan was. You can get through this.
What would be the right actions you could take today that, if later you decided to keep your marriage, would make it better for both of you?
You and your wife need some help getting through this. I wish you would take a chance on a call to the coaching center. Even if you don't want to tell your wife yet, a call would help you so much.
But I think you really ought to do it together with her. She needs a roadmap, too, and they are very effective and explaining to the wayward spouse how bad the damage is and what they need to do to begin to help you heal.

Chrysalis,

I'll ask her if she will call with me. I am afraid that if we call then I need to be totally honest. That I will have to tell her, in front of another person, that I don't want to stay and I am making myself do it for the kids. The Psych did say that there are somethings that just can't be fixed.

I'm still committed to being here for 6 years, and being a person that I respect during that time.

Oh no deary (I'm a grandmother so I can call everyone that!) MB will most definately NOT make you feel better... at first. Just imagine that you've had this sore place festering for years but just didn't want to go to the doc about it because you didn't want him poking at it and you didn't want anyone else to know how much it hurt. You figured you could tolerate it for awhile and you'd just deal with it later (in about 6 years).

You can't get to the origin of the sore unless you poke at it to see what's there. Once the problem is out in the open, and only then, can a doc begin to diagnose and prescribe treatment. MB is the treatment the doc prescribes. Exposing, cleaning out and treating the sore is painful at first, but eventually it begins to heal.

Don't give up on MB. Give it time. You've only gone through the initial diagnosis and treatment. Either way, at the end of six years, you'll be a different man with maybe a different plan.

Sorry about the corny analogy but it was just off the top of my head.

I thought trying this MB stuff would make me feel better, but it has not.

I can tell you from personal experience that this MB stuff works if both of you learn it, and then do it. However, it took three years from the time we started to get to where we were both happy. It has improved since then, but we were happy at three years. It has been about 6 1/2 years since I found MB.

Perhaps I should have said that it has worked for me, and many others that I know. I can't promise it will work for everyone, but I think it gives a couple a really good chance.


That I will have to tell her, in front of another person, that I don't want to stay and I am making myself do it for the kids. The Psych did say that there are somethings that just can't be fixed.

I believe you should tell her you don't know for sure. Unless ......... you do know that you don't want to stay now, and that you will never want to stay. If you are 99 percent sure you want to leave, but 1 percent of you doesn't know, then say you don't know.



You have a right to your feelings. You really do. They are an important part of you, and there (in part) for your protection.

When we examine feelings, we realize that the good ones are part of what makes life a wonderful and joyful experience. Other kinds of feelings can make a living he11 though, which I am sure you understand.

If we didn't have the bad, it would be hard to understand and appreciate the good. I am well today, and I am thankful. Much of my gratitude comes from having experienced sickness, and pain at other times in my life.

Sometimes when we are experiencing the bad, we forget that the good will come again. Pain has a way of doing that to us.

I would guess, that because of the pain you have experienced, you will have a difficult time believing that you can ever find good feelings with your wife again. Sometimes being a skeptic is good thing, sometimes not.

Time, and patience will tell. I know of no other way for you to to find out what you want to know.

The time will come no matter what.
However.........
You can have patience, or not. It will take much strength of will to quell your doubts, examine your feelings from time to time, and run the experiment to it's end.
I believe you have strength of will, and that you can do this if you want to.


Time, and patience.

The time WILL pass. You get to make the decision as to how you will spend it.

SS

Princess, SS;

As always thanks for taking time on my problem.

Today, I am 100% sure that I am only staying for the kids. I have no idea how I will feel in 6 years. I do know that I am a decent guy and that I will treat my W well for that time. Something JL said made me think that treatment is a type of lie. That I am doing love when I do not feel it.

I'm going to do the 6 years for sure, I won't be the one to leave, I won't cheat and I will be a good man. I will do this even if I have to feel like I do right now for the whole time. I will also try the MB approach. I guess if I still leave at the end I'll be a better mate for the next woman.

I have to say, that I just don't see this as an option, at all. every time I read these words, it just sounds horrible to me.

This does not sound healthy for you, your wife, or your kids at all. your kids can see what is going on. they sense the tension. They see that Mom and Dad live together, but are not loving towards each other. is that really the lesson you want them to learn? certainly I would agree that you are teaching them how to be an honorable man, supporting your family. But kids tend to emulate their parents. Whether they want to or not. Whether they recognize it or not. The lessons you show them right now, they take into their own M.

And I do not agree with your Dr on either of his theories: he doesn't medicate normal, and some things cant be fixed. I would not give that man one dime of my money.

All things can be fixed. All things can be forgiven. That does not mean they can be forgotten. And even after things are "fixed and forgiven" that does not mean you will choose to stay married. BUT this can be fixed. Do you honestly believe that your W should be doomed to wear the red A of adultery for the rest of her life, and never enter into a solid M again?

And yes, your anger is normal. But you are going through a highly traumatic event right now. And sometimes you need to be medicated just to help you get your mind back into focusing on the now, today, and making wise choices. Choices made from a position of strength - not made from a positon of anger.

I was on meds for about 6 months. It doesn't make you "happy" or "high". As a good friend once described it "the meds just shave the points off the nails".
I was on the meds for about 6 months, just to help me through the worst of it -so I could concentrate at work, sleep at night, care for my children.
I was traumatized, and reacting in a completely normal fashion. But that did not mean that I couldn't benefit from some help.

I just wish you could put aside the notion that you two will agree "just to stay together for 6 years and then seperate" I think you are setting yourself up for failure.

And instead, I would love to her you say "I am a angry, I am disgusted, I deserve far better than this. But I am going to work the program and make my best effort to build a loving M"

6YL



You can. But you have to do the work first.

If you stay where you are for another 6 years and just kind of muddle your way through, where will you be in another 6 years? Granted, you will be able to leave but you wont be any wiser. You probably wont do anymore work on YOU and will continue the same patterns that are comfortable to you but probably havent served you all that well in your life. And, you will be 6 years older. If you feel like youve wasted your life now, do you really think you will feel better about that in 6 more years?

If you stay where you are and give this MB thing a shot, you at least have chance at being happy. That means you are going to have to wade through alot of crap to get there and things will not always feel good but you have a chance. If it turns out that you cant recover from your W's betrayal and you elect to leave ( and you would be well within your rights to do so) then at least you are armed with the knowledge of what not to do. You will be much more self aware and much more able to much your next relationship a success.

This is none of my business but Im repeatedly struck by how reticent you seem to be to talk about how you feel. In your post above you talk about how you have to say you dont want to be with your w and are there for the kids in front of someone else and you seem most reluctant to do that. Can I ask why? What makes you so scared to open up? Do you not feel safe in some way?

WOF5,

I may talk to the family doc to see what he would recommend, W will be upset because I will have to tell him why I need help.

I just can't commit to the M right now. I'm working on committing to try for a happy M.

One of the most sad parts of this is that I have already failed in this M. I'm not so stupid to think that my oldest boy doesn't know what happened. That means the others know as well. I should probably sit them down and talk about it with them. One of the hardest things of all about this is that the kids really did lose their mom for years, even though she was around. She is terrified that I will tell them the whole story.

JK,

I am reticent to talk about how I feel. She says she cares about my feelings but I don't believe her. I do not think she is strong enough to handle the fact that I really do want to leave and that I am staying for the kids. I think she will leave. Right now it seems like she is working on the M but believes that I'm just making her do this as revenge and that I really do still love her. I'm sure it is intoxicating to believe that you can do that to someone and still have him love you.

6yrears,


I think you are getting the cart before the horse. You are going to be angry, you have been angry for 10 years, why do you think it will stop RIGHT NOW? It won't, but it can lessen.

You say you want an apology. I agree you need one, but so do your children, after all they lost their Mom when you lost your W.

BUT, I want the answer to these questions and if you don't have them you need to get them and bring them here. WHY has your W changed her actions? What happened that roughly 3 months ago, she changed? What does she see differently NOW than she did 3 months ago? Does she have a plan that will allow this new perspective to continue into the future?

You have been asked this before, and I am asking now, because ALL advice we can offer you is really moot until YOU know and we know this piece of information. Of all the things you know and don't know, the answer to the questions I asked are the most crucial.

Fairness has NOTHING to do with this. I mean absolutely NOTHING. I told my children over and over until they were grown, fairness is for fairey (sp) tales. You won't get fairness. The past is past and she cannot bring it back and fix it. She cannot make up for what you lost, your kids lost, or even she lost. The only thing that counts from now on is the future, and that is why the answers to the questions I asked you is sooo very important.

IN truth we cannot offer really effective advice until we know her perspective on things and what changed her perspective.

I will say that she owes your children an apology and that can only come with them knowing the truth (in an age appropriate way). Your twins were 2 when she had that affair, but from what you have said she was a disconnected parent for most of their lives. They need an apology. Your older ones KNOW she was disconnected and knew her when she was not, they are owed an apology. You are owed an apology.

I think you need to tell her what is owed, and let her decide is she will pay this debt.

But, FIRST we need and YOU need the answers to those questions.

God Bless,

JL

6YL


OK - here comes your 2x4

Deciding for your W what she can and cant handle is incredibly disrespectful and no different than her not confessing to what she did to you. It is witholding vital information critical to making a decision. You are attempting to control the outcome of a situation by not sharing the facts. It is lying by omission and unfair and cruel. Your W, regardless of what she has done, deserves to know as much about how you feel as you do. To do otherwise is manipulative.

You and Mrs 6YL need to have a honest conversation, You cannot decide for her how she feels and you cant know for sure unless you ask her.

JL,

I can ask those questions. I'll ask her tonight. I don't see why the answers matter so much so I'll just post the answers up here and get you guys to help me understand.

JK,

I am trying to control the situation, I have done everything I can to control this for 10 years. I have not always done things the MB way but for better or worse that is what I have been doing. Now everything is spinning out of control. I can barely deal with my own feelings. If I tell her this now, I won't be able to provide any support for her. If she leaves then I'll be done with the M.

6

One word - HONESTY.

If you aren't going to be honest to her or yourself, you might as well just end it all now. Stop playing games with yourself. I think the truth is that you had a plan, she threw a monkey wrench in it, and now you are confused and really aren't sure of what you want anymore.

HONESTY

6YL

But it isnt up to you to control the situation. I do not mean any disrespect by this but what youve done for the past 10 yrs hasnt worked very well for you, or your W. You did what you could, I know, and I applaud you for holding it together as you have but you have a chance to change things. Your w has a right to know what she is up against, much like you have a right to know what she was doing as well as what she is planning to do now.

I doubt very much that your W will leave if you told her that *right now* you feel like you are only staying for the kids. I think she will kick into high gear and work her toucas off to change that.

You might be surprised.

JL,

I decided to just call her up and ask your questions, since I'm not really getting any work done and since they seemed pretty non threatening.


WHY has your W changed her actions? What happened that roughly 3 months ago, she changed?

In June, her mom spoke to her about our M. She asked her if she loved me, to which she answered yes. Then MIL told her she better let me know it. They had a long talk about whether I was a good H and dad. MIL then asked her if she was a good W and mom. SHe thought she was. MIL told her that she was NOT but she could be if she tried. So she started trying.


What does she see differently NOW than she did 3 months ago? Does she have a plan that will allow this new perspective to continue into the future?

She says she plans to be a good W and mom, and I should tell her what she needs to do. Then she asked if I would do the HNHN survey thing tonight and I said I would.

Call ended politely, no crying or anything. I will tell you one thing, my MIL is getting a giant box of her favorite candies tomorrow and maybe a bunch of Lilies of the Valley, if I can find them.

6years,


You don't see why they matter so much???? Amazing!!

They matter because the answer reflect who she is NOW, not 10 years ago, not last year...NOW. The person you are dealing with is the person before you NOW, not 10 years ago, not 5 years ago. The person you resent is not the person that wants SF with you now, not the person who states they love you...NOW, not the person who cries when you discuss leaving.


HELLO, your W has made at least 2 major changes in her life since she married you. She went from a woman you loved and loved you/had your children and charished them, to a woman that cheated on you, ignored you and her children. Then she changed again, to a women that apparently desires you, wants to love you, and from the sounds of it is back to caring for her children. And this is not making you curious????

You want to divorce the woman you were married to 10 years ago. She is apparently gone and replaced with the woman that you married even more years ago, do you want to divorce her? Is it true you NEVER loved your W? I don't think so, I think you loved the woman you married. That woman may be the one you are living with now.

6years, in the 10 years you soldiered on in this marriage, you hardened your heart to the woman that betrayed you, and you see no reason to remain married to her any longer than you need to. I agree with you 100%. In fact, I would say dump her now.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU MAY NOT BE MARRIED TO THE WOMAN YOU SHOULD HAVE AND WERE PLANNING TO DIVORCE. You may actually be now married to the woman you married all of those years ago. And you are not curious about this?

Frankly, if she was the woman of 10 years ago my advice is DIVORCE THE WITCH. If she is the woman you married I say WORK ON THIS MARRIAGE.

The sad fact is you don't know, and you have not even asked.

People do change you have a lot of evidence for that. So why would you not think they could change for the better?

6years, right now the problems to be addressed are yours, not her's. YOu need the answers to those questions and I realize they may well blow up your carefully crafted plan to dump her in 6 years. My response is...tough. Get the data, understand the data, and realize that you apparently have more and different data than you had 10 years ago.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I guess I seem pretty stupid, I'm not really. I see what you are saying intellectually and I do remember loving W before all the crap. When I look at her or talk to her, I see the last 10 years W, not the last 3 months one, or the first 12 years one. It is probably not fair, but there is alot of unfairness to go around right now.

I got the answers, but I still need to sit and talk with W about them. I posted them so you can give your impressions.

I also realize intellectually that I'm trying to make this all go too fast.