6,

I don't pretend to know anything about anything but I've been reading your thread from the beginning. You are showing more courage than I think I could have mustered in your situation. You're doing a great job and I truly hope you get what you want out of this. And if you're anywhere near Camp Lejeune, NC, I'll be happy to roll/spar with you anytime.

TC

Thanks TC,

I'll hit you up if I get to NC, people are starting to clear out of the gym when they see me coming.

That's interesting that she gave you a 2-3 on DS and you feel like you earned a 4. There are probably things that she considers DS that you don't. Maybe you feel like when you take out the trash, mow the yard, clean the gutters, that's DS. Maybe she thinks of indoor chores like vacuum, dust, clean bathrooms. This is an area for exploration IF DS is very high on her list (I know you said and now I can't remember, sorry).

An interesting thing about ENs is that not only do we tend to meet the ENs that are high on our own list, we tend to meet ENs in ways that we ourselves would like them to be met. Frequently our spouses ENs are not the same as our own, and if they are they want them met somewhat differently. Discussion along these lines can be quite eye opening.


That's all VERY normal. If you trusted her now, frankly, I'd be worried about you.

She has to EARN your trust. MB will give her the tools to do that. Sit back and let her. Now, you have the responsibility to be Open and Honest with her regarding what will help you regain trust. But it's up to her to earn it back. It's not up to you to give trust freely after having done so once and gotten burned.

Turtle,

I do all of the man jobs, I do the cooking and we hire someone to clean. She cleans up after dinner, but gripes about it. I do most of the kids stuff as well, really all of the stuff with the boys.

She did not rate DS as high on her list, I'll have to look again but I think it was last or second to last. She rated very poorly for all of mine, I think this is my order but it is hard to really assign a complete order. I am pretty self sufficient for the last two items but all of the others are important to me.

SF,
Admiration,
Family Commitment,
Domestic Support,
Attractive Spouse,
Honesty and openness,
affection,
conversation,
financial support
recreational companionship

JL,

She hasn't given me any answers yet. She did say she is sorry again, without me asking. She also said that after reading my note she is afraid that if she makes even one mistake I am leaving.

I said, then you need to read the note again. I am here at least until the kids are grown. She actually seemed relieved, and wanted SF. It was not my best effort because I didn't have much time before an early client meeting, but she seemed happy with it.

Hopefully I can get some answers.

It is important to think and talk about the specifics that you would like changed in these areas. You don't have to be unkind, but your W needs a road map. Try to think about a few behaviors in each of your top 3 - 5 areas that you would really like. And don't focus on how it was 6 months ago, but on how it is now and what can be done to improve the current situation.

What can she do to show admiration? Say thank you for the things you do? Verbalize her appreciation for how you look, or how you provide financially? Keep it positive.

You are probably going to want to read HNHN.

I apologize if every time I post to you I put in a plug for coaching, but I really think it would help you. Also, while my H was still in his A we worked on the home study course from MB. It provided a lot of tools that have been helpful since then. It is very discreet and private and it doesn't focus on affairs-- it focuses on how to build a good marriage. It is even handed and does not favor one spouse over the other. The cost for the whole 6 month course is about the same as for one hour of coaching.

Anyway, the format of the home study materials is about 3-4 hours a week of listening to a recording, reading a chapter on one of the topics, and working on talking to each other about specifics. SInce SF is usually a top EN for men, and affection for women, those two topics are dealt with very early.

It is up to the person who wants an EN met to communicate that desire to the other party. And because this is about creating a mutually satisfying marriage, it is also up to the person who wants the EN met to help the spouse find a way to meet the need that is mutually enjoyable. So the spouse who has a greater need for SF has responsibility for making it fun for the other spouse to meet that need!

Domestic support. I was so terrible at that, and I have to watch it all the time or I fall in to more careless ways. But one thing I did was specifically request that my H, who had taken over a lot of the household stuff, no longer do any of it. I wanted to learn to make our home welcoming and enjoyable for him. It was a challenge. I had to remind him a number of times not to "help" but he got the hang of it eventually.

Along the way I was really surprised to learn that he felt loved when I put fresh flowers in the house. I had no idea that would be an issue for him! So now I put them everywhere, and he really likes it. I always try to put the nicest arrangement on his desk in the study, and another nice one on his side of our bathroom. It is this kind of detail that you and your wife need to develop for each other, if you are going to give her a fair chance at proving herself to you.

Right now, I've let the house slip a bit, but I am working on a big project turning that around. He feels his need is being met because he knows about the efforts I am making.

Who does the laundry? This can be a big challenge if you are not a naturally orderly person. If she is doing it, be sure to show her some appreciation. If you are doing it, and you'd like her to be doing it, you can ask her.


This is too long, sorry!

Chrysalis

She doesn't want to do the person to person counseling because she is ashamed. I'll think about the home study course, she will probably like that. I am still very very angry all the time, so I hope it can help address that.


I do the laundry for W and me, kids do their own. Since she doesn't work, I like the idea of just having her pick up all of the non man DS, except cooking (I'm a much better cook.). She is not organized so it will be a while before she can do this well.

For admiration, I don't know. Maybe she could thank me for providing such a nice house, she never has to worry about money. She could thank me for making a nice dinner, and clean up without me asking. My dad was super strict, I thank her for everything she does, and not just "Uh, thanks". I swear I can't remember the last time she thanked me. She could also tell other people that she is proud of me, this is weird but she said bad things about me to others during the A.

I'm getting more angry writing this up, so I'm off to beat on people.

Double-check but if it's that low don't worry about it. Put your real efforts into her top 2 or 3. If you have time or energy left over, think about a couple more.

There are two probable reasons for that, you'll need to decide if one or both apply.

1. You are withdrawn and therefore no matter what she does you're not letting her make deposits into your love bank. She could do back flips with fire blazing batons and you'd still keep the bank vault locked. If this is the case then I suggest paying attention to everything she does and thank her for her efforts. And not just an empty "thank you" but a thank you with a reason, i.e. "Thank you for cooking dinner tonight, I know you had a headache" or "Thank you for helping the kids with their homework, it makes me happy to see you spending time with them."

2. She doesn't know what your top ENs are and/or doesn't know how you want them met. If this is the case it's your responsibility as a good husband to talk to her about them, and how to best meet them. Also, keep in mind that ENs shift in priority over time, as do your favorite methods of having your ENs met. Be sure to keep her informed about your ENs. She needs this information to be a good wife to you and to make you feel loved.

The specific reference to DS clicked something in my brain. One persons idea of meeting an EN may be completely different than another. I'll use DS as an example since it is familiar to me, but it applies to all of them. DS is somewhere in the top half of my list, but not the top 3. WstbxH actually worked pretty hard around the house, but it didn't satisfy my EN. Why? Because he did things half way resulting in extra work for me at times that were not convenient. For example, if he vaccumed, he did part of the house, left the vaccum cleaner out where I'd trip on it, and never emptied the bag. I'd have to drop what I was doing, put the vaccuum away at bare minimum only to have to haul it out later, empty it and finish the job. He put clothes in the washing machine, moved them to the dryer but never folded. Often he'd bring a pile of washed, dried and crushed clothes up and drop them in my lap to fold. It didn't matter if I was busy doing something else. It was frustrating and would ahve been easier if he didn't do anything at all.

The other ENS are the same way. Are you communicating your admiration the right way? Are you admiring the features that she needs admiration for? Are you measuring SF in quantity or quality? Is her idea of quality the same as yours?

I don't think it's enough to list the ENs. You have to know the specific ways in which you can meet them.

Has your WW answered why she had changed the way she acts towards you for the last few months before D day?

I think 6YL said his wife had a conversation with either her mom or MIL in which she was encouraged to straighten up and fly right if she wanted to keep her marriage.

6years,

You said
Of course she didn't. They may have seemed like trivial questions to you, but she knows those questions are very hard for her to answer and in seeking the answers she is going to hurt alot because she is going to have to review her life decisions.

Give her time, lots of time.

Others have already told you, but I will repeat ONE OF THE BIG Breakthroughs in how Harley handled marital situations was his realization that otherwise well intentioned people often failed to meet their spouses EN's not because they did not want to but because they either did not know what they were or assumed they wanted them met as we would want them met. Neither was often true, hence he felt that often marriages in deep trouble could be saved with some patience, some introspection (EN's questionaire), and then honesty. Over the years his record seems pretty good.

The purpose of the questionaires is NOT to lay blame, it is to determine who to do a better job and making plans for a win-win.
That is what you two should be doing. Your W has had a whole lot thrown at her, give her time to address these many things. I really do think there is great hope for your marriage if you will do this while acting with grace.

As for you forgiving her, trust me on this it will come whether you decide to stay or leave. Forgiveness is really for the forgiver more than the one receiving it. There will come a time when you will tire of living as you are now, you will tire of revisiting her affair, how she treated you, and how you have felt about all of this. When you finally tire enough of it, you will want to set it down. You will one day say: "I am relinquishing the right to punish, seek retribution, or leverage her failures. I forgive her."

You will not be forgetting, nor should either of you ever forget what has happened, but forgiving is for YOU, not her. The time will come 6years so don't worry about it.

She is trying to meet your needs, she is JUST NOW facing the consequences of her actions. Her Mother laid it on her. She did not dear ask you because she KNEW you were deeply hurt, and she could not face it. However, her attempts to be a better W forced her to face these things. Those "simple" questions you asked her are digging deep into her soul right now.

I will tell you this. I know you don't want to give her false hopes, but the most powerful thing you can do is validate her current efforts. I know it seems odd that the person most deeply hurt is the one coaching the perpretator of this pain. But, what you don't know now is that she hurt herself far more than you realize and perhaps even you.

You don't have to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and see in the following order: a liar, a cheat, an adulterer, a poor parent, and a lousy W. She does. She is not who she felt herself to be during this time and she can no longer hide from that.

If there is any chance for the mother of your children to be the person she was, and could be, it is through YOU. Not fair, not right, higly nonlinear, but 6YEARS those are the facts that prevail. 6YEARS, you gave away your power 10 years ago. Now whether you want it or not, you have most of the power in this relationship, use it wisely and I think you will be rewarded in ways you simply cannot see yet. Now is your time to grow, learn, and show your children the man you are and will be. She is going to need YOUR guidance to heal just as you need the balm of her apologies for you to heal.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

6,
If writing about how to meet your needs triggers the anger, take it a little at a time, but it is critical to teach her how you want your needs met. I expect that in time she will have a couple of things to teach you about how she would like her needs met, too.

When telling her what it is you would like, try not to make harsh demands or express anger. Just say something like, 'Domestic Support from you is one of my top ENs. I see it isn't one of yours. I would really like to see you handling the bulk of the housework and laundry.' But then if her initial efforts are not up to your standards, you need to show appreciation for her efforts and nicely teach her how to do a better job of meeting that need.

Many people who really struggle in this area get help at www.flylady.net.

She has an opportunity to set aside her selfishness here, as do you. I agree with the others, I think if you will do the work a step at a time you may just find that you are happier than you ever thought you could be.

It takes a while for the wayward who wants to change to figure out how to set aside the selfishness and thoughtlessness that led to the affair. It is a process but the results can be wonderful!

EXACTLY!!!


AMEN!
Using the power wisely - this is an excellent way of putting it.
You have been wronged, treated badly, traumatized, no doubt about it. BUT, when you show grace to your W, when you act in a kind, loving, adult manner, you will feel good about yourself. Act in such a manner, that you wil not look back on your own actions with shame.

And then, if your W doesn't follow through, doesn't "get it" and you end up divorced, at least you will feel better about yourself.

Now, I must admit, that as a woman, this comment from you:

has me a little concerned!!!! You better tread lightly here, or watch for the frying pan to come flying your way!!
first, your idea of the "non-man chores" and her idea may be different. so I would suggest that you start by saying "I enjoy cooking, and would like to continue. But I really do not like loading the dish washer. Would you be open to taking that on?" and so on, down the list of chores.

also - YOUR idea of how organizied she is, and her idea, are likely to be different. If she takes over many of the DS chores, and you don't think she is organized enough, may I suggest that you keep your mouth shut!!! and let her have the chance to work it out. If things are not done 100% the way you would have done it - thats ok. If you truly need to step in at some point, how about saying "Wife, there has been a stack of laundry on the couch for a week now. Do you need me to help you fold it?"

WOF5,

I will tread lightly but she has a strong sense of man's job / woman's job at home. I've been doing both of them. She would be shocked if I were to suggest that she do some yard work. It is going to be hard for me to let her meet my needs at all, but I am going to try.

JL,

I guess they are hard to answer. She seems to be struggling with them. How long am I going to be so very angry? Should I expect months of this? I was just up there making dinner and I had intense anger come over me. I had to go outside and run around the block.

6YEARS,

Anger is going to take awhile to go away. Given that you have stuffed your feelings for a decade, I would guess the anger will last months, but the occurances will diminish with time. I would even guess a year or so from now you will have flashes of anger.

But, remember this, your anger is very likely to occur whether you stay or go, because it is coming from within you not from things she is doing now. She could vanish from the face of the Earth and your anger will still be there. So continue to address as you have been.

I am sure she is struggling with them. Perhaps you can suggest that she address them one at a time. That way she won't be quite so overwhelmed. You really have no idea of what she is facing right now. She is facing herself and her deepest darkest failures as a woman, mother, wife. And like you she has avoided facing these things for a decade. I am sure all of it is coming back and it is not pretty.

I would really like to suggest that you both seek counseling as these issues come to light. A good counselor could help both of you see things with new perspectives. The Harley's are clearly experts at this stuff.

Be patient 6YEARS, know that this stuff is normal, and realize that she clearly wants this marriage now, or those questions would not be throwing her for a loop. I suspected that they would. Give this time and have patience with yourself and your W.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I am trying to have patience, I told her if she just wants to answer one and then go from there we can do that. I suggested counseling but she says that she can not talk about this with someone else. She said she was sorry and wished this had never happened. I was mad so I said without really thinking if it was ok. "This didn't just happen, you did this to me and the kids." I didn't yell but she was very sad and just said "I know that." She went off to think about her answer, I think she is really struggling with why she did this in the first place.

I guess I made my own bed in terms of the anger. It seemed more hopeful when I was sad instead of boiling with anger.

I have to tell you, that the posts you are getting from JL are spot on. You are getting some great advice there. I hope you can go back in a few days and re-read some of those posts, because I think that you will gain more and more wisdom as time goes by.

I think in some ways your anger may be helpful. Of course, you don't want to let it run wild, but in some ways, reaching the anger stage helps you to move forward.

for most of us, and I think this may include you, we start out in the sadness stage, walking on eggshells, afraid to say anything that might drive our spouse away.

So when the anger phase finally kicks in, it is kind of nice to finally get our strength back. to finally declare "No more! I will not allow myself to tolerate this disrespect any longer. I believe in M forever, I believe it would be best for the children, but I will NOT allow you to walk all over me any longer. I am not your boy friend. I am your H"

WOF5,

I recognize that the advice is wise but I'm unable to really process it right now. I will go back and reread. W is trying to put together her first answer to why she had the A. She is having so much trouble and I don't understand why. JL says it is hard. How could you throw away everything and not know the reasons?

I'm still extremely angry, I have been doing so much working out that my weight is down to 200. I'm actually starting to look ripped but I'm pretty sure it isn't healthy. I guess it is better than drugs or alcohol.

Jean,

You are correct that My MIL, W's mother, gave her a swift kick in the butt. (She has received her flowers and candy.) The letter was pretty specific but MIL did not tell W that she knew about the A. That conversation was later when I made W stay over there while I read the letters. She did tell W that she though I should leave her unless she shaped up and that it might already be too late.