Sorry to stick my nose in; my completely uneducated guess to the above question would be that your wife justified her actions in a nonsensical manner. The reasons why she did what she did were probably very neat and made sense at the time. That said, now that she's honestly reflecting on exactly why she had an A, the whole pile of reasoning is crumbling like a deck of cards and she doesn't know what the real honest to God reason is.

BTW, your mother in law is AWESOME.

TC

TC,

I'm just learning about this fog stuff. I hope her answers are not trivial or someone at the gym is going to get a real beating. You are right MIL is awesome and has been there for me the whole time.

6YEARS,

TC is really very much right from my way of thinking.

Here is the deal. In jest and with deadly seriousness, many years ago there were many discussion about WS behavior during an affair. It was decide that this really was an alien abduction. Your real W was being held on the "Mothership" and the being you were dealing with only looks like your spouse. We had a lot of fun with it, but the reality is that the WS is an alien.

I cannot tell you the thousands of posts on this site where a WS ends the affair or has it ended, and realizes that they want the marriage (you could call it being beamed down from the Mothership). In any event when confronted with the things they said to their spouse, they cannot even imagine saying those things. They often will deny until shown proof. It really is like they were posssessed. The level of denial, they level of deceit, the level of self-delusion is huge. Part of this is in fact brain chemicals caused by the 'high" of the affair. It is very much like an addiction, and we all know an addict will often not remember or cannot face what they did while under the influence.

Your W knows what she did, she knows what she said, she knows what is in those letters and she cannot reconcile those things with who she is now, and what she feels. She is struggling to be honest with you, while facing her failure as a W and a mother. She is trying to make sense of what is nonsensical. We call it the "fog" because while in it the logic of a WS is NOT logical at all other than seeking gratification. When the fog lifts, they cannot make any more sense of what they did than you can.

I am NOT excusing her affair, and I don't think she is. I encouraged you to ask those "simple" questions because if she were really serious about rebuilding this marriage, if she really loved you now, I knew they would cause her to think. If she came back with some breezy answers, then the odds where high she did not really "get it". I think she "gets it". She is just having a very very hard time facing it and making any sense of it.

Her problem is very likely that any answer she gives you is going to sound so trite that she fears you will leave her. Her problem is that any reasoning she gives will sound like she is blaming you. She does not want to do either of those things, and she does not want to hurt you either.

These are my guesses. If you want to check on them ask her if she is having problems answering the first question because the answer sounds trite or blame shifting, and see what she says.

6YEARS, you MUST go slow here. You now have enormous power. She does need to see a counselor but you might want to discuss why she is ashamed to talk with them when the more important people in her life (her Mother, and you) know the truth already. Wouldn't be better for her to have a third person who is not emotionally involved help her?

6Years your W needs help. I know you are angry. I know you fear opening your heart. I know you fear the future if you try. You are the one that can guide her and help her by getting her some help. YOu have 6 years to make a final decision, you can even change your mind.

Believe me those questions are tough on her, trust me on that.

God Bless,

JL

6YL:

You ask her for the "reasons" for her A.

And you ask that her answers not be "trival"

Tell you what. After my 4.5 Y A and 3 years after D-day, I STILL can't tell you WHY I had the A.

Simply put, I did because I could.

Not very refreshing that one, isn't it?

But what wouldn't be trivial to you?

-Because she Could?
-Because OM talked to HER?
-Because having all those kids in three years was TOUGH?
-Because you were at work?
-Because you didn't put the toilet seat down?
-Because it was Tuesday?

The important thing.....IS what has she learned to prevent the NEXT affair from happening?

And that is the difference for me. I could have a A before, but now, I KNOW myself and my weaknesses and why I was so open to having an A and I have CLOSED those areas up.

Many BS's around here can't get thier head around the "why" answer. You can ask, but you might not ever be satisfied by the answer. Which, becomes another bone of contention. However, if the wayward ones CHANGES themselves to prevent a future A, and YOU know this, then thats REALLY your answer.

LG

Good morning 6years...

I haven't posted in a while but I have been reading your posts.

I am a FWW and would like to offer you some of my thoughts just to help you try to understand what may be going through your wife's head and heart right now.

I know how important the why is to you, and believe it or not the why was just as important to me. Lousygolfer stated that the important thing is that she learn how to prevent a next affair. I agree with that, but to me that was not the only important thing. I needed to know why I allowed myself to do this in the first place. Because to me, knowing the why would be a crucial step in helping me prevent a next time. It was also a very important answer needed to help me fix me.

For me, it had nothing to do with what my husband was or was not doing. No he wasn't meeting all of my EN's but that really played very little into my actions. I allowed my own insecurities and very low self-esteem to take over. I didn't like myself. And it is very easy to escape yourself and everything you don't like about yourself through someone else's attention and compliments. And I know as a husband, you may think "well I gave my wife that and more" but when you don't believe that about yourself you aren't going to believe that from your husband either. In your twisted mind, you are convinced that your husband HAS to tell you those things because he is your husband and not because it is the truth.

I think that is very important for a BH to know..."my husband HAD to." I believed my husband HAD to compliment me and give me attention because he was stuck with me and didn't want to hurt my feelings. I believed my husband HAD to because it was a requirement of him as a husband. I certainly didn't believe those compliments about myself and I honestly believed that I was nothing special, so believing my husband was speaking his truth was not going to happen.

IC helped me figure this out. I could not reason how I allowed myself to do what I did when I knew how wrong it was and knew this was not something I wanted to do. Realizing my weakness helped me discover my why which helps me prevent a next time.

I know you say your wife does not want to go to IC due to shame and I can empathize with her. I've been there and done that. But what finally got me to go was I was tired. I was tired of carrying all of this around in me. I was tired of feeling so horrible about myself. I was fed up with me. Now that your wife's past is out in the open and she can't hide it from herself any longer, in time, maybe she will get tired too. I hope she does. It would be life changing for her, and in turn you, your marriage and your family. For me, it was the best gift I have ever given myself, my husband and my children.

I know this has gotten long, but I want to comment on one more thing. JustLearning, a brilliant man, said



I can not tell you how very, very true this is for me. It has been 5 years for me and everyday, I look in the mirror and still see that liar, cheater, adulterer, poor parent and lousy wife. That is not all I am today, but it is and will always be a part of who I am. I will never forget it, but I am doing my best to distance this new me, this real me from it. I pray everyday that the good parts of me out shine those very negative parts. I work hard at that everyday.

Right now, it is most likely hard for your wife to move forward, to do the hard work to fix this because she is frozen still in her shame. She doesn't have a clue right now what to do to even begin repairing all this damage she has done. I am not making excuses for her, but I've been where she is now and I finally found the courage to take a step forward. I finally realized my shame and sense of failure wasn't nearly as important as my husband's healing and happiness. And the funny thing is when I started helping my husband heal, I started healing myself.

I hope your wife figures that out.

My very best to you and your family.

6years, please excuse this brief threadjack ...

rubydoo,

I know you were posting to 6years, but I found your post very powerful, especially today because of a current issue between myself and my W (FogFree). I have emailed a link to your post to FogFree, who is flying back home from a business trip today that didn't go very well for us.

Thank you for taking the time to post to 6years ... you never know how many additional lurking readers you may help with the insight gained from your experiences. THANKS, again.

Thanks JL,

Anyway this morning after kids left for school, I asked can she just tell me what she is thinking. It doesn't have to be perfect. She said all she can come up with is that she wanted some fun and that doesn't seem good enough.

I did not react well, I really think I almost had a stroke. I vomited right on the kitchen table. While I was changing my clothes she cleaned up the kitchen. When I came back she said that nothing is going to be good enough to explain what she has done. She doesn't know what words can even touch how hurt and angry I am. She asked me to tell her something she could do so show how sorry she was.

I was still reeling but I calmly (from my perspective) said that I want a postnup. She thought I meant an immediate D but I explained that I wanted her to agree that if we get D in 6 years that I get most of the assets. I said I would ask one of the guys at work to come up with something fair for the 11 years she was a good wife and mother to my kids. I am still surprised but she just said ok, but she wanted me to have everything if I can't get past this. She said she has taken back way more than I ever owed her.

I'm surprised this has not softened my heart, but the agreement will be done in an hour and she is coming to sign it. I'm still angry, maybe once this sinks in it will take the edge off. She is actually going to do something just for me.

RubyDoo,

Thanks for your story. I'm glad things worked out for you. You can read what I did this morning. Probably not the most MB reaction.

LG,

From the answer this morning I am willing to bet I will never get a real why. How did your W get the the place where she felt safe from another A without the why? I know the answer will probably be trivial but the I wanted to have fun answer is horrible.

Everyone wants to have fun.

6Years,


Did you expect an answer that would make all of this right? LG pretty much told you like it is. There are not good answers, "I wanted to have fun." is probably a very honest answer, but I think you know and I suspect she knows that it is a surface answer. Lots of people want to have fun but they don't violate their vows, and demean their spouse to do it. There is more and she knows it and that is why she is struggling.

6Years, all evidence suggests that you have a very remorseful W. All evidence suggests that you are going to have to figure out how to address the mother of your children and leaving in 6 years with post-nup in your pocket is not going to do the job.

This all takes time, make sure you don't treat her as she treated you or you will be just like she WAS.

Keep listening to her reasons, but I would definitely encourage you two to seek counseling.

God Bless,

JL

6YL:

What did I tell you about the "why"

She just "wanted to have some fun"

THAT'S not the question to pursue RIGHT NOW.

She doesn't understand the depth of your pain.
SHe doesn't understand the burden you have been carrying for so long
She doesn't understand your resentment from all of this.
She doesn't understand.

She WILL.

Or you can divorce her in 6 years and go away happy.

You asked me this:


I don't know if you went to my story, "its curtains for LG", but three days before Dday, my BW found this site and directed me to it.

BOTH of us changed because of this site. MY BS was on the same track as you. Kid grads from high school, she is Plan D'ing me. She knew about the A, which was continuing every day. But just like you, she was unwilling to confront it. It would have continued for quite awhile, I'm sure. Had it died, for some other reason, she certainly would have never confronted me about it. She just would have pulled out the Plan D card on HS grad day.

Believe me when I tell you that WE have discussed the "why" of my A. There are many underlying things that allowed me to have the A. Rubydoo posted her struggle and outcomes, and mine was similar, but different. There is NO acceptable answer to "why".

I mean, your W could tell you that "she was a piece of trash, with no self-esteem and the OM made her feel good, and it was a rush and having fun, etc, etc. But it would be lip-service. She could SAY all that and you would KNOW that it isn't true.

So, until she UNDERSTANDS what she really did do to you, she CAN NOT answer the question. You may think I am giving you short shrift on this, I'm not. The answers are not black and white here, and until the wayward has de-fogged, you will not get an acceptable answer.

I recommend that you go to the MB weekend. What Flamingo and I learned on this website was just a start. We read the books, and then WE went to the next scheduled MB weekend. I set it up. And missed an important professional activity the same weekend to do it. It was ALOT cheaper than divorce. A hotel room for two nights, two plane tickets and the seminar, plus the follow-on activities would probably be less than $2k. Divorce? Even with the pre-nup, will cost you 4-5 times that. And that is the monetary amount, not counting the emotional costs. Yours, the childrens, and yes, your W's. Also, WHAT you will learn, will make a serious difference in your outlook as well.

Please give it your most careful consideration.

LG

JL,

She just won't do the counseling yet. I'm not sure why it is more shameful to talk to a counselor about it.

The postnup is done and she signed already. She didn't even seem sad about signing it, and she read through it with her own counsel. She just gave it to me, and said she hopes it means something to me and that she is sorry. I said I will see you at home for dinner.

I'm trying to let this sink in. This is a big thing for her to do, she can't really support herself in our current lifestyle, so it means she is really going to try to fix this.

Anyway this morning after kids left for school, I asked can she just tell me what she is thinking. It doesn't have to be perfect. She said all she can come up with is that she wanted some fun and that doesn't seem good enough.

Sometimes it's good to review.

YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND A LOGICAL REASON FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT LOGICAL.

You would never do it. You can't understand it.
She was trying to be honest, but she doesn't understand it either.


I'm surprised this has not softened my heart, but the agreement will be done in an hour and she is coming to sign it. I'm still angry, maybe once this sinks in it will take the edge off. She is actually going to do something just for me.


Anger is normal when you have been betrayed. Time must pass. Your mind needs time to process. Trauma is traumatic. This is the nature of terrible things. We don't want you to get used to it, or get over it. We want you to understand it, and process it.


You have some of the best on MB helping you now. From your reactions, you are barely making it sometimes. I don't mean that you will die any time soon, but I mean that processing this takes every thing that you have, and you still have a difficult time understanding, even with all the information you have gotten, and are getting here, by people who know what it feels like.

It's difficult to examine and explain these things. Nothing we say can describe how you feel. Nothing we do can make it better. You have to work through it. You have to think the thoughts, and feel the pain. In time, your thoughts will change. If you believe this (in time your thoughts will change) it will help you get though it. However, as has been said, the time will pass no matter what.

Now, I said you have some of the best on MB trying to help you. We do hope it helps. We want you to be able to smile, and live without this pain, and anger. We want you to find joy in your days, and peace in your nights.


Your W is a living, breathing human being too. She has feelings, and dreams, and pain, and she suffers. She doesn't know what you know yet, but she is attempting to deal with this anyway. Who is helping your W get through this?

Do you understand why I am asking?

SS

6years,

It means she is putting her life or way of life in your hands. You have more to work with than you realize...way more.

6YEARS, why don't YOU find a good counselor and go. You could use the help. Plus, if this counselor can help you deal with all of this mess, perhaps she will be encouraged to join in.

I really don't know how all of this will work out, but my guess is that you will find it hard to meet a woman that looks at you as your W does now. I would bet that you would find a woman that is willing to sacrafice as much for you as your W is.

BUT, you both need help in dealing with all of the damage.

God Bless,

JL

LG,

I am pushing the counseling, even just counseling for her. She is so ashamed of what she has done. You have to remember that she also abandoned the children, she still isn't much of a mother to them. Our oldest never talks to her from college. He doesn't even include her on his emails, I have to forward them over.

JL, SS;

I have a Psych, but he has not been much help yet. It seems like you guys are right that I just have to do this and no one can do it for me. It does help to read what you say but I still can't synthesize it all. I said it earlier and it is still true, that it feels like I can't fit all of this in me. It is slippery, as soon as I start to think I have my head around one thing then another one will just pop into my head. Or I will just suddenly be filled with unbearable anger.

I'm here and I'm trying even though it seems like the easier road would be to leave. I'm also telling you guys what happens so I can have other eyes on this. I'm trying to be as honest as possible even when it makes me look bad. I told W about the site and my username. I doubt she will post but she will almost certainly read my posts.

6YEARS,

No one gets through this stuff quickly or easily. In an odd way you actually have a pretty "easy" path, your W wants to work things out. But, "easy" is relative, you spent 10 years dealing with something you could not address.

I would recommend that occasionally you go back and reread this thread. You don't see progress, but there has been a huge amount of progress. AND there is much more to go.

Does your counselor deal with marriage issues? Do you feel he or she is helping you? If not, perhaps you need to find one that is better suited to you and the situation.

I must go, but hang in there, you have a lot of positives in your life although right now it won't seem that way to you.

It is clear that as this stuff sorts out, your W needs to address your children and make a heart felt apology to them. YOU are going to have to help them reconcile with their mother. Whether they know this or not, they need their mother and haven't had her in their lives. It will by your job as their father, and her H to facilitate a reconcilliation.

You have a full plate 6YEARS, and I know you are tired and fearful, but don't be afraid of doing the right thing.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Psych claims to be a specialist on marriage problems, but I've only seen him once so far. I see him again this friday. Maybe I get something out of this weeks sessions.

W called and is reading my posts. She just called to say she is sorry again. I feel a little weird that she is reading but she asked me to keep posting and try to forget that she is reading.

I'm just about as naked as I can get now in terms of telling her everything.

6YEARS,

If you are running bareass then you won't have to worry about tearing your clothes right?

Seriously, see if she will discuss what she has read here. She if she is beginning to understand where you stand. This site offers an interesting opportunity for you both. If you read a few other threads, then the two of you can sit down and discuss them rather than continuing to beat on the obvious elephant in your living room. This often allows each of you to develop vocabulary and avenues of discussion that are not painful for either, but address issues similar to those you two face.

Time and patience 6YEARS, repeat the mantra, T&P, T&P, T&P...

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

6,
Would you mind closing your eyes for a minute while I say something to your wife?
Thanks.

W of 6,

Welcome to MB. I am so glad that you have come here. I want you to know that there are a number of good-hearted women here who have been where you are and understand what you are going through.

I hope you will get a username of your own and start your own thread, and ask for help from those women. It is a bad idea to post on your spouse's thread-- that tends to dissolve into arguments and just is never pretty. So you and 6 should each keep to your own threads and let others help you individually.

There is a lot of help to be had here. There will be some things said to you that seem very harsh and you will probably get a few 2 x 4s. But people here want to help you and 6 recover your marriage and have a happy life together.

I also strongly urge you to call the coaching center here for an appointment with your husband. They won't shame you--- they have seen untold numbers of affairs and helped many, many people to figure out how to reconcile with their spouses after the terrible hurt caused by their affairs. Better yet go to an MB weekend with 6. That is classroom-style, not 1:1, and I have heard wonderful things about it. And it isn't all about affairs, it is about building a good marriage. You need this help, and this is the best help there is.

We all wish the best for you and 6.

End of T/J

Thanks, 6, for letting me slip in a little post to your wife. I asked her to get her own thread and let the women here help her. I also asked her to consider trying the coaching or the weekend. And I advised her to never post on your thread-- as I am advising you to never post on hers, because it almost always leads to ugliness when people post on their spouse's threads.