Hey, I feel your pain, I was you once... The fact that your W gave you those letters speaks volumes for her. She could have shredded them and then burned them. She didn't. She gave them to you to give you the history you sought. She is not having a walk in the park right now. I remember after my D-Day it sucked to be my husband. Only a man who dearly, really loved me would have put up with the constant questioning and all out abuse I handed him. I didn't let up for a good year after the fact. And I promise you the OW will probably never encroach on another marriage after I got done with her.

Why did it happen to us?,"He always intended to keep the promises he made to me", "It just crept up on him" "She threatened exposure to me if he stopped talking to her"

Why doesn't it matter anymore? It's a part of our history that I would like to delete, but it's there. I am scarred, felt unwhole for a long time. Now we try to focus on our future, what little we have left...we are older. The important thing is that he is with me, now, he is really with me. That's what matters to me, and to US. We are certainly an "US" now.

And I am going to pray for you and your M to be made whole again. Best wishesGF

I think it was good that you got to read the letters. You could not rest until you knew everything. Now you do. However beating up your WW by going over line by line will not be productive for you or her.

You wanted to know what happened and now do. Asking for the "why" will never be satisfactory. She did it because she could. She did it because she wanted it.

It's a Duh moment. What do you expect to read in your WW's letters? That you where the greatest since slice bread in and out of the bed room. Plus Dad of the year.

A WW is going to tell the OM he is special, that he rocks her world. Her motivation is to keep the OM coming back for more. Keeping the affair going.

WW's have to compartmentalize their life and find reasons to justify having an affair. Her This is all you should have expected to read in WW's letter.

These letters can only let you know the what, who, why, where, when, and how of the affair. You now have a filled in time line. If their are gaps or you need more details ask.

The why is she had needs not being met. She made the wrong choice of not getting you to meet them. She let the OM do that. Now she wants you to meet them.

OK, here comes WOF with another 2x4 to the head!


Um. get over yourself.

I have a feeling that it ain't all that easy to be with you right now

I am sure that you are a good H, father, etc. But it really sets my alarms off when you say things like this. the thing is - men and women view things differently. it is just the way we are. My H makes a very nice living. he is definately a good provider. And I am sure that in his mind, that makes him a good H. But honestly - I would trade half his salary to spend more time just hanging out with him. So - if he and I both only looked at that aspect of our M, he would say he is a great H, and I would say he was average (I actually think he is a great H but hear me out)

So please remember that the two of you will have a different perspective on this, based on your gender. Add to that, the fact that we each will have a different view of how we should show love to others, and how we would like to have others show love to us. You are doing a lot of things right - no doubt about it. But that does not neccesarily mean you are a good H, and easy to live with. I wonder - if I could sit down with your W, over a cup of tea, and ask her what she would say are the 5 most important traits in a good H, if her ideas would be the same as yours.

You say that you are considerate - but I really have to question that. If you were considerate of her feelings - would you be running her through the ringer making her answer to every single awful letter she ever wrote duing her A. Good grief man, that sounds horrible.

I am a great wife to my H. He loves me, and I love him. We take good care of each other.
But I have made some mistakes in my past. Some thigns that I am not proud of. If my H made me sit down and go over my past time and time again, with the constant "why, why, why, how could you, how could you, how could you" I would go nuts. If he saw my obvious depression, my tears, my shame, and he insisted on reading old letters, old journals, and re-hashing what a childish idot I have been - I would dump him like a hot potato, and never look back.

Lucky for me, I have no old letters to be read. I have even destroyed my old journlas, so that I will never have them thrown back in my face. I can not imagnie how horrifying it must be for your W to be faced wtih an attitiude of "I am a good H, father, lover, provider, and yet you wrote these horrible things about me - why, why, why, and how could you, how could you, how could you".

I have said this before - reading those letters only causes pain. it puts word pictures in your mind that you do not need! There is enough hurt in the world to fill your mind without the help of those letters. We all have bad thoughts from time to time. We all have had times when we thought bad thigns about our spouse, or compared them to someone else in an unfair way. thankfully, most of us do not write those thoughts down. We let them go. But your W wrote some stuff in letters and kept them. And now you are holding them up to her as the big red A of shame.

The two of you really need to stop trying to work through this on your own. this current course of action sounds very dangerous to both of you.

You need to get on the phone with the Harleys, and come up with a healthier plan.

PS. just re-read my post and realized that I need to add: I support yoru right to have info, and have your questions answered 100%. But you have read all the letters. You know what they say. it is time to get rid of them and move forward.

JL, TheRoad, Mo, Chrysalis, everyone;

Thanks for the perspectives on this. Mine is a little too close to the problem.

I'm not throwing in the towel. We made a deal to work on this and I'm going to do that. I'm sure you've read enough of my thread to realize that I keep my deals.

I'm just thinking that I am never going to get a "why" that is even close to good enough and I'm just going to torture both of us trying to get one. I'm just tempted to end the review of the past and try to make a good marriage going forward. That may be the only hope of any forgiveness. I don't want to sit through even one more conversation where I hear that I was trashed and abused because she wanted some fun. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to say it again either.

I reviewed the letters again, probably stupid idea, but I did come away with a little understanding of what the fog thing is. They are filled with lies even things like "I never wanted these kids" and calling them "his brats". I also believe that she has been happy for a long time, she says she has, and thought I was fine because I just never asked for anything or complained about anything. She still says her Mom's wakeup call was the thing that made her change her behavior, but that she would have changed if I had just asked.

I have a couple of pointed questions just to put in the over flowing pot of data.

1) I'm thinking I can't forgive this and I certainly can't forget it. Is that just fear of getting hurt again or is it just too fresh?

2) Can you build a marriage where the other person can't make one more mistake? I'm not trying to make threats but I do not think I will ever be a place where one big mistake won't end this for me.

Sorry, but at this point in time, I disagree with this. Just because he BELIEVED that there was an A 10 years ago, he did not have the facts until this month.

Ummm...that's a lot to ask of him to just stop asking questions about the past and move on. His real D day was just a few weeks ago. He needs to know what happened and this is the first chance he's had to find out.

But, I do agree that he should call the Harley's.

WOF5,

You should be a carpenter. We have only gone over one letter, that is the first I have even spoked to her about any of the details. Other than just asking the big Why. I agree that it is going to be a useless conversation, but I don't want to go back to the stuff your feelings world.

I've had enough of the review for now. She still won't talk to a counselor, she is embarrassed. I'll offer that we can just go in and say that we don't want to talk about any of the details of the A.

You are wrong about the good H thing. She does think I am a good H, she has been telling her mother and friends that for quite a while, apparently no one thought to tell me even she didn't think of that. Of course, I didn't tell her my plan either and I never complained or asked for anything. Fortunately, her mom realized that I was marking time, she saw a change in me during the A and was waiting for a time to tell W. MIL did tell me that she has known ever since the A that I would walk away the day the last kid was grown.

I guess I know more about the A than 99% of the people on here, so that should be enough for me to process that. Then we can work on the M and see how it goes.

2) Can you build a marriage where the other person can't make one more mistake? I'm not trying to make threats but I do not think I will ever be a place where one big mistake won't end this for me.

Please define what the big mistake is or could be.

I am sure she does!! I hope I am not speaking (posting) too harshly here. I guess what is making the alarm bells go off in my head is this: As soon as you decide that you are all ready a good H, as soon as you sit back and rest, that is when you do not leave room for improvement. And we all have room for improvement in ourselves, every day of our lives.

About counseling with the Harleys: your wife does not need to participate (at first) and frankly, I think that you may be better off using the full hour for yourself the first time.
you do not need to have her agree to counseling - just make an appointment for yourself, give them your story, and get started on a healthy plan.

I am very hopeful that the Harleys can help you to make sense out of a situation that just does not make sense.

Mo,

Well an A would clearly cross the line. I'm not sure where the line is, it could be as simple as telling me she never loved me. I don't say thing unless I mean them, heck I don't even say half the things I do mean (I'm working on that.)

In regards to those letters, please make sure they are in a place where you children can not find them. Children have a knack of snooping for answers when they see a shift in their parents behavior. Even if the change is a positive one, children, especially teenage children, want to know why and instead of asking, they will look.


I'm afraid if your children ever read this in a letter written by their mother, that could be something very hard for them to forgive and forget. Just based on what you have written here, it seems your wife may not have a close maternal relationship with them already and reading this could be quite damaging.

I think you can build a M where you have healthy boundaries and they are enforced.

What is that "one more mistake"? Is that another A? If yes, well definitely. Most here would not put up with another A. If it's lying or bad mouthing you behind your back, possibly. And these would come under your boundaries. She would need to know what is expected of her, and what you will not accept. Communication would be the key here.


This takes time 6. And remember what we've all said before...forgiveness is for YOU.

Try to think of your past. Is there something in your past when you hurt someone and asked for forgiveness? Or you made a mistake and regretted it terribly?

This was a mistake...a huge one, but still just a mistake.

The letters are locked up at my office. I have access to very secure document storage.

She was afraid that I would tell them she wrote those things. I have already assured her that I would never do that, even if we D.

Hi 6years,

You asked:
Ok, on the first one. You will forgive her in time. Why? Because forgiveness is for you and about you. At some point, you will NEED to lay down the option of extracting revenge or punishment, it will weigh too much. Forgetting? Nope, you will not and you SHOULD NOT forget this. Neither should your W. How do you expect to learn from this? How do you expect her to learn from this, if you both forget that it happened? Doesn't make sense does it? Sort of like saying "I know I learned from WWII, but I don't remember what WWII was." Does that make sense.

You should remember, what will happen though is that the feelings associated with those memories will detach and fade. I would suspect that your W's memories of the affair have become detached from what she felt during the affair and after. But, forget this????? Not a chance.

As for number 2, consider this. Many people go their entire lives and not make a major mistake in a marriage. I would say you did, I know my W and I did. It happens frequently. The fact that there is zero tolerance for another affair, or for her treating you as she did in the past, is not an onerous requirement. It is a boundary that is worth keeping in my opinion.

So the answer is YES, you can build a marriage where your boundaries are enforced as long as she knows what the boundaries are. Fidelity, civil behavior, respect, and love are NOT too much to expect in a marriage. I say go for it.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for the advice.

I'm starting to understand that boundaries are the same as threats. I can work on that one. I think I am still confusing forgiveness with deciding I can stay in the marriage. Sounds like I have to forgive either way eventually.

Two thoughts I hadn't seen yet. First, you can make counseling one of the stipulations of staying together. I don't think you two will ever get to a healthy place unless you do. She needs to examine all this just as much as you do. IMO, the only way a couple can have a blessed relationship is through total honesty, understanding of each other's faults, and acceptance of those faults, so that neither person feels a need to hide anything out of fear of recrimination. She seems pretty willing to meet you halfway. Just tell her you can't handle things unless you get into MC.

Second - and this is in NO way an attempt to underplay what happened, but merely to present another angle to it - the 'fun' comment reminds me that 10 years ago, she was much younger. I have seen it over and over again. Girls grow up with this romantic, unrealistic image of what marriage is. Then the reality sets in. In most cases, the guy gets what he wants out of marriage - SF, a woman to replace his mother for DS, and the pride of running a household. In many cases, the woman gets 2 full-time jobs, nearly sole ownership of kids and doctors and appointments and haircuts, a reduced role of importance since the man is running the household, and quite often even being taken for granted.

Where's the romance? Gone with the wedding gown.
Where's the attention? Poured into work and tv shows and football games and Saturday night poker games.
Where's the free time so that she can feel special and not just 'the person who makes sure everyone else is taken care of'? Given up because the kids are sick, or H is working late or has a hobby of his own, or no one else is helping with the 2nd job (housework) and it simply has to all get done, or family called and it's once again the wife's job to make sure H visits his mom or sends her a birthday card...all those tiny things everyone just accepts are a woman's job, no one recognizes the sacrifices for, and no one offers to take off her shoulders.

I went to a stress therapist once, and she told me 85% of all her patients are women - because we simply won't walk away from all the responsibilities that come with motherhood and being a wife. And because we give up who WE are or would want, to make sure those things get done.

I'm not saying you didn't contribute, or took her for granted, etc. I'm saying that she reached a point (in her 20's or early 30's, right?) where she said to herself 'is that all there is?' IMO, THAT is where the 'fun' comment came in. She went from being a teenager, college student, whatever, who had freedom, ran her own life, was appreciated and looked at and maybe even pursued - to a housewife with a lifetime of chores and responsibilities and being taken for granted, as we all do. It can be a very depressing place.

I hope this helps you see what might have been her frame of mind at the time.

Maybe instead of looking for a why that is good enough, you'd be better off examining why it was so important to her to have some fun. What about her life was so oppressive that she felt she had to escape it? How could she have handled it differently? How would she handle a similar situation today? How could you have made things better/easier for her (COULD you have? maybe not)?

Is there anything she can do to help win back your trust and prove to you that she would indeed handle things differently today? I think she is doing many things to that end: signing the post-nup, sharing all those letters, answering all your questions. She stands to lose EVERYTHING and yet she still recognizes the importance of honesty and talking to YOU about these things. She values that now more than her own security or pride. Think about that. That is a very big change from the old WW.

JL already said it, but I want to re-emphasize it: you don't want to forget. The pain will fade until the memory of these events is more like a movie you saw that struck a chord within you, or a book you read that was more realistic than your run of the mill novel. You want to remember, lest you slip into careless habits with your marriage again. But you and your W won't hurt forever.

6years,


Boundaries are NOT threats and should never be considered a threat. A boundary might be: "I have come to the conclusion that I cannot handle another affair, therefore I will leave the situation if another affair arises." That is not threat. IN fact the only part of the boundary your W might need to hear is the first part. "I cannot handle another affair". It is a true statement and it is about YOU. THis is not a threat. One does not lead their lives with no boundaries or they have no basis for action. If this is indeed your boundary, then she knows if she had another affair, that you will react accordingly. Nothing happens to her, no threat to her. You will simply leave the situation. She can do as she pleases. She can judge the worth of doing certain things (having an affair) against your stated response, you will leave.

Not a threat, it is simple really.

God Bless,

JL

Catperson,

You make marriage sound so appealing and I am a guy. I wouldn't want that marriage and I am a guy. If women really think like that why do they get married? I know for one thing SF in a marriage rarely works out to the males advantage, especially in this day and age. Most of the men I know received less after marrying than before.

You also make it sound as if women have no voice, no say in the decisions made in a family, even in having children. I find it so interesting given this is the age where "its a woman's right to choose." I also find it interesting that women have no responsibility for the state of the marriage.

Oh well! Perhaps your point will help 6years see things differently.

God Bless,

JL

JL, CatPerson;

I get what you are saying except I didn't read it as women are really oppressed. I read it as women start with an unrealistic expectations and then they also put pressure on themselves. She did have more pressure then because we had a plan for me to get through school and then things would be easier. Turns out I was able to get through school mostly without help from her. I think it would be easy for any of us to think that M is a bad deal. I think for my W the let down could have been part of it. She definitely got the fantasy wedding thanks to her parents. Even though we were young and she was pregnant.

How many wives really go after SF (not just sex) with their H. How many really express admiration? I would guess far too few. She likes romance and I am not romantic, so I just made a list of things to do and I have done them for a long time.
I did them with no feeling of love, but she was happier. She used to put girls night and weekend before time spent with me but she ended that herself in June (probably MIL input). So now she gets a nice romantic date once a week. (I even dress up. ugh)

I do think it would be a good idea for people to take some sort of therapy before marriage. I understand that the catholic church does something like that.

6, I think you are on to something here. This is a good step forward. IMHO. Work on the plan to make it better going forward.



1. It is too soon for forgiveness. A year past NC, and 3 years past the first D-day, I am just now able to think in terms of forgiveness. And even so, I recognize it as a gradual process. Right now my thinking is, "He has profoundly changed and worked to heal the marriage; I am forgiving him and choose not to dwell on hurtful things he did in the past." This thought process for me is a step to letting things heal a little more.
2. I think that a turning point for me was a few weeks ago when I realized the behavior was a bad as it felt to me; that it was done with "malice" or at the very least conscious disregard of the affect on me; and that I had every right to walk away. Yes, one big mistake would end it for me; but I am forgiving the previous big mistakes and choosing to move forward into a better marriage. That is the shape of my boundary.... willing to move forward together, but not willing to accept further maltreatment. I don't know if that feels like a threat to my H or not; it is more about me and what I can live with.