hee

JL, I wasn't saying that what I described is every marriage. Like 6 understood, I was really saying that when women think of marriage, they think of the fairy tales they are fed as kids - only the good times. Kind of like they expected instant gratification, all the time. Forgot they would also have to do all the mundane things, too. Not all balls and dancing.

Also, it's well documented that women's nesting instinct typically never turns off. Probably what kept the species going eons ago. So, even if she tells hubby to feed the kids, help with their homework, give them baths, and read them to sleep while she attends school, she never really lets go of the worry. Is he, are they, is it all ok...So she comes back exhausted mentally and stressed.

When a man goes off to class or to play tennis, from what I've read, he just lets go of everything and has fun. He knows the woman will make sure everything is handled. So he comes back refreshed.

It's not that they have no choice or no responsibility, it's that they're women, lol.

They get married with a myth, an ideal. And in most cases, they do end up with the bulk of the work; just the way our society is. So the norm, combined with a woman's propensity to never stop worrying about everyone, can lead some women to sacrifice their voice and their needs to achieve what the family needs. The problem is that most women wouldn't know what I was talking about, because it's not something that we are taught. We just struggle along without understanding why. That's also a big reason why so many women divorce when the kids leave home - they've been doing this ignoring of their own needs for so long that they reach that point and say what about me?

Ask the women you know, at least those who work outside the home. I'd bet that 80-90% of them feel they carry the bulk of the responsibilities at home, even if they DO have a voice and tell their H's how they feel.

Catperson,

In my case W has never worked outside the home, but before the A she did completely own home stuff. That did enable me to work and go to school. So we were both pretty overworked.

Hey guys,

Just wanted to touch back in. We are reading SAA, and she is considering the counseling. For now we've stopped talking about the A and that time. It is not forgotten and she is still saying that she is sorry when she sees that I am angry or is just worried that I am sad. We're both working the needs questionnaires.

Emotionally I'm doing a little better, still angry but not the scary rage of before. Kids are keeping us busy, W asked me to reach out to you guys and ask about parenting. In addition to being a crappy W, she was crappy mother. She would like to work on fixing that, probably a lost cause with our oldest and it will be difficult with the others since they are teenagers.

One more thing,

We did talk about the parts of the letters where she said nasty thinks about the children, there were alot of these references. We only spoke in general. She wanted to be sure I was not going to reveal this. I assured her that I would not but I also let her know that she has not been a good mother to the children. She wanted to speak about this I did not bring it up since I'm trying to get a little distance from the past.

She said she was sorry about not being a good mother, I told her that she was apologizing to the wrong person about that. I suggested that she could start with a talk to our oldest when he is home for Thanksgiving. That will not go well, he is polite to her because I will not tolerate rude behavior toward their mother, but he barely even speaks to her.

She is going to try that when he is home.

One more thing.

This is a specific question. I'm trying to avoid dredging into the past again but I'm still angry about being the runner up. W did not end the A, she was dumped by OM.

So that leaves me thinking that she never really wanted me again, she was just left alone with nothing better and I filled in the blanks. I'm thinking this may be another one of those things I just have to know and never get a good answer on. I know why he dumped her (from the letters) but that isn't very satisfying.

I'm sure there must be another faithful spouse (I don't like calling myself betrayed because then W gets to cheat on me and put a label on me.) with this situation.

Good grief man. Can't you find anything nice to say about your WIFE and the MOTHER of your children?

Your W can build a better R with her children at any time in her life. The sooner the better. None of these children are "too old" Or "too far gone" to finally have a better R with their mom.
And what a blessing it will be, for the oldest to fianlly have a better relationship with his Mom.

In fact, I would suggest that she needs to get working on her relationship with the odlest right away - today. Quit waiting for November. Because the younger children will benefit from being right there in the home, and having mom with them every day. It would not be good for oldest to come home in November and see that the younger ones have a better relationship with Mom than he ever did.

How does she start? Slow and steady. Phone calls "hello son, just calling to see how you are" if he sounds cold on the phone, ignore that. Call again. Maybe not everyday, but at least 3 times a week. I call my son and say "just checking up on you" at least 3 times a week.Perhaps she is not ready to have some big, long, emotional conversation on the phone right now with him. But that doesn;t mean she can't jstu call him to say "thinking of you"

with the younger ones - she sits on the couch with them to watch whatever they want to watch. she plays their video games. She asks questions about school.

It is never too late to build a better relationship. The best time to start is right now, this minute.

Your oldest may be skeptical at first: What is going on here? Why is she being so nice all of the sudden?
but if she keeps it up, just keeps loving on him (not in a over bearing or pesty way ) then after awhile it will not seem odd to him anymore.


We ALL struggle with this. The best I can say is that she did want you again, about 3 months ago. And she is showing you that right now, every day.
Also - the object of her addiction was this OM - Her addiction could have been whiskey, and the whiskey could have finally made her sick for the very last time, and after she kicked that stupid addiction, she would have come running back to you. Would you still think you were second choice? what if her addiction had been porn? And she finally got help, kicked the habit, and wanted to be a good W and mother? What then? Would you tell her that you did not want to be second choice. Just some things to think about.

WOF5,

She hasn't earned many nice comments yet, but I am going to help her be a good mother if I can. I recognize that no matter what, the kids deserve a good mom. I also recognize that she is really hurting because the chance to be a good mom is slipping away.

Our eldest will not talk to her on the phone. Maybe she can call and just say something nice before she gives me the phone? He will not hang up he will just say "Can I talk to dad?" if she says no he will say that he has to go and then say goodbye. He has done this many times.

I see what you are saying about the other kids making him feel even worse. It is going to take a concerted effort from her because they just assume that I am the parent.

From your last comment on being second choice, I'm guessing it will not help me to grill her about this. It is something I just have to deal with as best as I can. It would be easier if it was just a prior boyfriend but to have her actively choose him over me, get dumped, then take me up as second choice. It hurts. I'm going to talk about that with the Psych this week.

As my mama used to say, if you can't say something nice...don't say anything at all.

She is reading here, and yet you posted that she was a crappy mom. that is cutting right into a womans heart. For a woman, a comment like that would be right up there with talking about a mans size. Know what I mean?

I have no doubt that there is truth in your statement, and she has likely called herself a bad mom. But cut her some slack and tell her that her past behavior was that of a bad mom. Her future behavior will be far better. Set her up for success, not failure.

I guess the reason why I keep posting here is because I can feel that she is sincerely trying right now. Her remorse speaks volumes! One of the reasons I am divorced from my WxH is because he never showed any remorse at all. No tears, no apologies. I know he had regrets - but he did not show remorse.

I am going to put myself out there a bit more, and tell you that a second M is not an easy thing. I love my new H. We have a grat M. BUT it is not easy, for either of us. Dealing with children from the first M is always a struggle. Dealing with our old hurts from the past. Trying to hurry up and build memories, and a history with your new spouse, and trying to meld lives together, when you are both adults, with your own set of habits, ain't easy.
At times, I feel like I have to pay for the sins of his first W. She was flirty, and probably cheated. So if I put on makeup before we go out togehter at night, he think I am trying to attract other men. he can't see that I would put on makeup just to attract him, because his first W would have gotten all made up to flirt with other men, so that must be what I am doing.

And on my side - I have a huge fear that he will abandon me. that he will leave me for another woman. This makes it hard to just relax and trust.

Of course, we are working through thsose things. And we ahve all ready been to MC. and in some ways, we ahve elarned from our past mistakes.

But I hate for you to D this W, with some idea that you will find a new woman, who has not had a chance to betray you, therefore you will feel like her first choice. Because that is not very realistic.

Dating, getting engaged, and married, when you are over 40 is a whole new experience. At times, I feel like I am second choice to my H's children. Not becuase of anythign he says ro does - but jsut ebcause his tie with them is limtied, and he needs to fully enjoy them when he can. i did not grow up with those chidlren. I ahve not raised them. so I do not have the sames bond with them that he has. I love them - but not the same way.
Likewise, he did nto raise my boys. he dose not know what I have done over the years to help mold them. He loves them, but it is never going to be the smae bond taht I have with them.

My H is an outstanding H, father, lover. But he has to work very hard at it. And I think he is part of a small percentage of adults, over 40, who understand that. The likelihood that you would find another life partner who would be able to succesfully fit herslef into your existing life, with your existing habits, children, fears, baggage, etc, is very slim.

i know you don't believe this right now - but it would be far easier for you to re-build this M, with this W, then it would be to start al over. You have baggage here - but you know what it is, and she is anxious to work it out. There is no guarantee that your next W would be willing to work anything out.

Her repentance speaks volumes.

6, and w to 6,

Can you explain more to me about what "not being a good mother" means?

The statement is a judgement, and doesn't give us facts that we can work with.

WE will do all we can to help you with this challenge.

I know how hard kids can be, I am on my 3d teenager. Teenagers are brutal. They are trying to separate from parents any way that works, and that is their chief developmental imperative. It isn't about us so much as it is about their biological drive to become adults.

My oldest, last night, apologized to me for a behavior that was really nasty during his teen years, and directly attacked my competence as a mother. He is 24. In retrospect, we all see his behavior as being ridiculous. (It was about my cooking, which, while wolfing down leftover veggies he found in the fridge on a home visit, he now acknowledges as excellent. In fact, he is desperate for me to cook for him. Not so, when younger.)

Anyway, if you will tell us more about how W of 6's parenting has fallen short, we can try to help. I totally agree with WOF 's observation that it is never to late to try to improve the relationship, nor too soon to try.

WOF, Chrysalis ;

We are working on lots of stuff right now. None of it is easy for me, and it is not easy for her either.

Now I'm going to describe bad mom to get help, no 2x4 needed. I'm trying hard to always say the truth, even when it hurts, especially here.

During the A she was gone all the time, really barely saw the kids for a whole year. After the withdrawal, I just kept doing all of the care. I make breakfasts, go to school things, go shopping (I'll give this one up right now if I can). I also do most of the loving up stuff because they come to me and I fell into that role when she was completely gone. I also do the sports and go to those events.

Until June W was spending 3 nights a week out with friends until about 10:30 or 11:00 and every other weekend on a golf or spa trip.

So if you think of a dad who works all the time and then plays golf on the weekend you have my W. Except that she didn't work. I don't really know what she does during the day, but she is always home. I'm taking some of the blame here because I never asked her to step up as a mom. We are going to work on this as a team, it is nice to be super dad but the kids need a relationship with mom.

(W read this before I posted. She agrees it is true and that we are going to work on it.)

Oh W saw that I am feeling like the consolation prize for losing her true love. She says she is sorry and that she doesn't feel that way about me. She said that she feels lucky to still have me and that I am not her second choice.

So we were not going to to more A review, but I had to bring up the fact that he dumped her and she did not leave him for me. I did not get angry just incredibly sad, I actually cried and I never cry. She just sat with me and said that I am not her second choice. The she asked if I am leaving her, so I said we made a deal and I'm going to work on the M with you. Then I said I really am trying. That made her cry but I'm not sure if it was relief or sadness. I'll ask later.

I'm still feeling sad, is it weird that I can keep it contained until we talk about it?

6, and 6's w,

I don't do 2 x 4s very well. I just want to see you make it.

I see w of 6's relationship with kids as something that can very much be saved.

The A is over. right?
The girls nights out are over. Right?

So you try hard to be parents moving forward, together, using the policy of joint agreement,

Most kids try at some point to play one parent against the other. Your job is to not let that happen. Did you talk to Mom about this? What did Mom say? I'm not changing what Mom said. That kind of thing, done a hundred times if need be.


You have to decide that you will back each other up.

If you still want advice from me I am here for you. Just let me know,

I think everyone (faithful spouses) deals with this.

Eventually, over time, you'll come to realize that she could have left you before, during, or after the A. She's there with you, now. She chooses you. She's not with you "because OM dumped her" -- she's with you because she wants to be.

She.
Wants.
To.
Be.
With.
YOU.

Let's face it, if she didn't want to be with you, she'd be with someone else.

Why is your oldest son so mad at your WW?

Does he know about the OM and the PA?

I think he does, or suspects something along those lines. Time to get him to open up.

Chrysalis,

A is over a long time ago. Yes the nights out and trips are almost gone. She will get rid of the rest.

They don't do the Mom vs Dad but we will watch for it.

Road,

I think all of them know about the A and OM. In spite of her denial back then it was pretty obvious to me and probably my son who was 10 when it started. I would guess he has told the others.

W is very afraid to have that talk with the children. We will not be revealing any of the things she said about the children in the letters.

The ONLY thing that will ever bring your oldest and your W back together is her total, undeniable honesty and remorse - to HIM. Nothing will matter, nothing she can do, no amount of phone calls, if she doesn't go to him, sit him down face to face, admit everything she did and everything she regrets, and beg his forgiveness - for what she did AND for the lost time between him and her, which is probably what hurts him the most.

You can drive her up there, you can knock on his door so he'll open it, and you can let her into the room and tell them no one is leaving until they've talked. Then just sit outside and wait.

As for mothering. I would recommend that you start delegating opportunities to her, one at a time, so that she starts picking up the slack she dropped so long ago. Give her a shopping list and send her to the grocery store; when she gets home, tell the kids to help her unload it - bonding time, seeing her as a mother.

The next school event, write down the plans, hand it to her, and tell the kids Mom will be taking them. Send them off.

Let them all get acclimated to it, slowly. It'll work.

to a certain extent, they may be relieved to finally know the truth. they have known that something was up for a long time, they just didn't know what, for sure.
No need to give too many details - they need to know that Mom was in a completely inapproriate R, which is over, and she is fully committed to building a better R with their Dad, and them.

For what its worth - I do not beleive in "girls night out" I think it is a disaster waiting to happen. some people may disagree with me - but I think that especailly in this case, your W needs to stop going out with the girls for a night, or a weekend. Not just going out fewer times - I mean stopped all together.
Why would she go on a golf or spa weekend without her H? I assume you could golf with her. If not - then you both need to find something else to do together. My H and I go on spa weekends together several tiems a year, and it is one of the best things we can do together.

I do occasionally go shopping with some girl friends, but it is a day time activity, not centered around drinking. I have even gone to a womens church retreat - but it was all women, no men, and we talked about ways to improve our M, our families, etc.

Your W needs to find female friends that will help her to lift up her H and children, and become the W and Mom she wants to be.

And weekends away with friends, should be the two of you as a couple, going with other couples.

How about family weekends away. Do you all do that sort of thing?

I agree with most of what catperson said, but I think that school events should be attended by both parents, together.

One of the hard things, I think, for the person who had the affair, is to root out the independent behavior and attitudes that made the affair possible. You have to rework your whole way of thinking and acting. This is why I asked if the girls nights out were gone.

In our marriage it wasn't "nights out" so much as way too much time at the office, and way too many independent errands on weekends. Most of them were affair-related but it took a while for my H to cut out the independent stuff. It will be important for you and your W to do as much together as possible.

The idea about delegating "mom" duties to your W a little at a time is good- she has some learning to do about how to be fully present for your kids.

But I have to agree that if the older son knows of the A, she must talk with him and tell him that she knows she hurt not just you, but him, more than any person should have to bear, and that she regrets her behavior from the bottom of her heart.

Your son also needs to hear from you that you and she are openly working to try to build a good marriage going forward, and that you are going to give it your most honest and hard work.

Good points, Chrysalis. I agree it'd be great if both parents attend a school event. Don't see it much with teenagers, but it'd be great. And important for oldest to know the new direction of his parents.