Thanks for the support.

Yep - individual councelling is being arranged by referal atm from my GP and anger management is some thing I am going to arrange to try and start next week when they're away.

Don't give up on the recorder. It's your best bet.

I know talking about anything to do with us is painful and stressing for her. She is uncomfortable with me offering to do things for her directly so I'm left with indirect actions.

She must know that I would want to talk about doing anything positive to start rebuilding our relationship. Would she just have have agreed to only stonewall on thursday instead of just just saying a straight no when I asked?

I don't want to be wishy washy but I don't want her to feel over powered by my desire to right the wrongs.

Greg, is your GP arranging the Medicare subsidised 12 session scheme for you? It may only apply to treatment for depression, but maybe would apply to your situation too.

IC is expensive, about $140 per session, and you have to pay in full up front. If I claim through my private insurance I get about $50 back, if I claim through my Medicare scheme (the GP referred one) then I get about $75 back.

As well, if you are not happy with your IC after a few sessions then find another one (there are as many bad ones as good ones out there), your GP can then change his referral.

Another thing, we tried MC through Relationships Australia because it was government funded, but based on our combined (very conservative) income, we didn't qualify for the reduced rate so we had to pay the full $145 per session and couldn't claim it back from private insurance or Medicare. Just for your info.

Good luck with your IC. It's a positive move for you, regardless of your M.

LOL - I don't want to find anything you know. But, I put it in her car last night - between the headrest and seat (has car seat covers).

IF i find something it then raises the prospect of a very ugly state of affairs (sic).

We can only afford to move out if we sell the house and we can only sell the house if both of us agree. She might move out, she might try to to take kids.

oh dear what a prospect

You're the father of her children. Proceed with determination but also the recognition that you have a huge advantage over every other male on the planet. My guess is that she'll respond to elimination of negatives and introduction of positives, but you need to woo her.
Cherished

Recorder must have gotten accidently switched off when I fixed in in place yesterday. Set it again this morning.

She is hiding her phone. I'm starting to get to the point where I want to demand the phone from her.

I have the prospect of a conversation with her tonight where I wanted to introduce her to the cycle of love bank withdrawals our takers have have been orchestrating and that now hers is protecting her as she had lost her emotional bond with me.

I'm wondering if it's even worth holding out the prospect that there isn't OM or some kind EA and just get the proof. Of course if there isn't OM then it really damages her trust in me further. IF that's possible.

If she doesn't respond at all more positively and I can't get proof from the recorder before friday night (they leave for her dads for a week on saturday) should I confront her with my fear and demand to see the phone?

IMHO there are not too many WS's who will admit to an A unless confronted with hard indisputable evidence from the BS. If she is having an A and you tell her of your suspicions (without any proof) then she will just go more underground with her communications and movements with OM, and play the 'I am so hurt, can't believe you would think I could do that, can't believe you don't trust me' cards against you. Believe me, I got all this from my H. You need to keep digging until you have proof. And even then, try not expose your sources so you can continue gathering your evidence.
You may just have to play tonight's meeting by ear and gauge where she is at and take it from there. Good luck.

I already mentioned to her last week in a fit of stupidity that I was worried she might have found someone else.

Since then she has guarded her phone - never in plain site. I think what ever she is hiding it didn't just happen the weekend I had an angry outburst - it's been something for longer. And i deserve to know sooner rather than later. I shouldn't have to go sneaking around to find out.

Why would a woman hide her cell phone from her husband?

Wake the helI up Greg, you have an affair staring you in the face.

Hire a PI today. Don't tell us you're broke. Hock your wedding band.

Turn your "Love Busters" book to the chapter on Selfish Demands. Learn why demanding her cellphone is a superbly bad idea. Remind yourself that one single LB undoes a *ton* of deposits made by meeting ENs. You are so in the red with her that you cannot afford even a tiny LB.

I don't think this is a good idea. If you try to educate her, it will be perceived as controlling. You're leading, you're teaching, you're calling the shots, you're making the rules.

You got very good advice earlier: ask her what she sees as broken, ask her what she sees as your part in fixing it, and LISTEN TO HER.

Explain to me again how demanding to see the phone is part of Plan A?

Read what Turtlehead said!

I know.

I'm torn between doing the right thing - and being suspiscious and feeling it's all a waste of time if there is something she is hiding.

I can make rationalisations for both positions.

In regards to the books - I guess I'm hoping that when she can see the human processes we have gone through she might be more forgiving of the lack of insight that lead us to this point.

After the talk last night the position is that she's still not agreeing to the possibility of a reconciliation.

The plan for the trip to her fathers is looking like she wants to make it two weeks instead of one. She has agreed to have a read of love busters which IF she does actually read it may show her how easily two people can become alientated even with the best of intentions.

The positive concession was she said she needs time to think rather than just a straight No. Hopefully 2 weeks holiday with no other stresses may bring us some chance.

I have never been apart my wife or kids for even a week before. It's going to be a very hard dark time not being with them and not knowing if she will come back softer or even more determined to see her extrication through.

I talked about the love bank and her state of withdrawal after too many withdrawals by me leading to her loss of love. It's ironic, although perhaps aided by the AD, that I can physically feel mine going down now too.

Her heart and love for me is broken, she doesn't want me to try to fix it.

Unfortunately at this stage the pain of not excepting this is less painful than the pain that will occur to me and the girls if I do. At least there is some tiny bit of hope, given others experience, that she may give me one more chance.

I personally think you're making a mistake in trying to educate her. At this juncture that could be construed as a big fat Disrespectful Judgment.

I think you have a much better shot at things if you focus on yourself: eliminate all your Love Busters immediately. Work very very hard on this. Focus especially on AO, DJ, and IB.

Secondarily, you can focus on meeting her top ENs. For women these are usually affection, conversation, and either domestic support or family commitment.

Work on YOU and leave her alone with regards to the "let's fix it". Talk is cheap and she needs to see some action on your part.

Of course, this is just my own opinion and others may disagree.

Yes, educating your spouse is generally frowned upon in Plan A.

They left this morning.

Perhaps you are right about the "trying to educate" stuff. I hope it ends up being a positive step though in long run.

I didn't demand she read it. I asked her how she would feel about taking the book and having a read while they're away. I guess I feel like having stumbled accross lassisters reef. I want to show her I understand how insensitive and stupid I was but we did the best we knew how and lots of people go down the same dark path and never see the light.

On a happy note, she did accept a hug from me before they left. That made me feel good.

Two nights by myself now. I coped a lot better than I thought I would. Actually feeling a lot calmer at work today than I have for ages.

Spoken to girls each night and even had quick chat to may wife yesterday morning about trip and what they had done the night before.

Booked the first anger management session for this afternoon.

Any ideas on the type of contact I should attempt to pursue with her over the two weeks? Should I extend affection and let her know I miss her and kids or should I just leave it to what ever general conversation we might have when I call to talk ot girls?

Highs and lows today.

Had my first anger management session today and came out feeling really positive about taking charge and being proactive.

Then we get an offer on the house that my wife wants to accept. It's $10K below out asking price but we've had it on market for a while now. That pretty much ends the marriage I would say. I'll have very little chance to change things now.

All I can think of is I failed my girls and I failed my wife.