I hear you...I usually have a very suspicious mindset with stories like this. For whatever reason, this one rings entirely true and I will take her at her word.

Yes, but like I said, what has she said,


As yet another BH, this reads right out of the wayward script.

So I ask again, what has she said? I mean really said? She has said nothing about her efforts, but has gone to great lengths to say that he's all wrong, here's how he's bad, etc.

But she wants us to trust her that she's done her part and it's not reconcilable.

Sorry, that rings too close to the wayward script for me to not wonder if there is more to tell.

She has likely been truthful about what she has told.

I simply don't believe she has told us everything.

So her story can ring true, and still be an incomplete or inaccurate picture of what is really going on.

newsflash...sometimes it is ONE person that causes ALL of the problems in a relationship. It isn't always...but at times, ONE horrible partner can make a marriage fail.

It takes 2 to make a marriage work. It takes only ONE to screw it up.

As a BH, sorry, I see no reason to doubt her at this point.

Sure, anyone who has had an unfaithful spouse who was unwilling to end an affair knows that what the other person is doing and unwilling to stop doing is damaging to the marriage.

The difference is that most folks who are NOT the marital unibomber own, often in great detail, their contributions to the marriage.

What concerns me is not that she outlines his bad behavior, but the lack of details regarding her own bad behaviors, what love busters she has had to end, what his needs are and the efforts she undertook to meet those needs.

So while it's technically possible for one person to be the primary cause, we also know that in most cases, it's the efforts (or lack of efforts) by both that spiral the marriage to a breaking point.

Her opening complaint was that they were not compatible, he was a good man, a good father, but wasn't her cup of tea anymore.

I'm willing to take that at face value.

If she wants to leave, then I say let her go.

But on one hand she says he's a great father, and on the other she is very critical of him, and then she says little about her own contributions, good or bad.

Her focus is external, not internal. The problems are shifted to the other person. No ownership observed for any aspect of the troubled marriage.

That is a huge red flag to me.

And like I said, he could be everything she has said. And she could be the same or worse, or better. We don't know.

All we know is that she wants to leave, they are not compatible, she wants to take the child and get her name off the property and mortgage.

We have her and only her assurance that the marriage is not repairable. She is neither trained, nor impartial, but we are to take her at her word.

Sorry, it doesn't add up.

Maybe we should ask her to invite her husband here. You know, to talk with the guys whose wives abandoned them. You know, to get the rest of the story.

Wow.

To the original poster...I am sorry to say you are very unlikely to find help here(if you were here to deal with infidelity, I would say you are in the right place...but NOT for other issues). MB'ers is chock full of people that think that under every rock there is a snake. While many come here with a hidden agenda, sometimes there isn't anything sinister.

Your story sounded believable to me....obviously others think there is some bigger issue here.

Holy crap!

I just got home from work and was really excited to see that I had 20+ responses on this thread. I thought to myself "Cool. Some people have some advice or answers to my questions!" Instead I get to read about how my story doesn't add up and that I'm not giving all the details.

Of course I'm not giving all the details. There are 3 years' worth of details and they won't all fit in my posts here. Like I said in my OP, I really don't want to get into it all. I don't want to talk about it because I am DONE talking about it and thinking about it. Like I said, I have already made the decision.

I didn't come on this board asking for help with my marriage or how to save my marriage or tell you all about the last 6 years. I came here with specific questions about custody and my mortgages. That's it. End of story. Whatever else you want to imagine is up to you.

Thank-you to the posters who gave honest good advice. There seems to be one person on this thread though who will obviously doubt everything I say and has obviously made this all about them....about how their questions and curiousity are not satisfied. Who cares? That person seems to be filling in the blanks in his own mind quite well. Who am I to ruin all his fun? I'm not going to sit here and answer all of his questions all night long because I'm sure it will never be good enough.

Oh well. Thanks again. If anyone else has any other advice about the divorce or custody process, I would love to read it.

What I DO know is what she told us...and she answered the OM question numerous times....so I don't think that is an issue. She didn't initially slam her husband which gives her more credibility in my eyes. She was pressed for some details and outlined obvious emotional abuse on at least one occasion.

It is NOT our job to be detectives and pick people to pieces. Until and unless her story changes, she deserves to be taken at her word.

If you have any other questions..please let me know. There is an ignore feature if you find yourself bothered by anyone's posts. Try and understand where they are coming from given the trauma BS's endure.

Good luck to you.

Thanks medc!

Because its more common than most folks think, and much of what you've written really looks like it could have come from an unfaithful spouse.

I'm not saying you are. What I'm saying is it bears a striking resemblance to that.
Ok, here is what troubles me about this. Yes, it would be great if he went. His objections are that the two of you should be able to fix this yourself. Not an uncommon objection. Realize that many times what men hear when you say we need to go to counseling is that he is broken and you want the counselor to fix him.

That's going to be a love buster to almost anyone.

Should he go? I think he should, as long as it's a good counselor who is not going to pin the issues on one person. It's likely both of you have done things to destroy the marriage, not just him.

Yet you seem to write about his faults. Given how you write here, he has reason to be skeptical about counseling being about anything other than fixing his faults.

I'm not saying he doesn't have faults and things that need to be fixed. It's pretty obvious he does. The unanswered question is what things do you need to address? You can counsel with the Harley's alone, or others.

Did you do that? Did you enter a program of counseling or coaching where you asked for the counselor or coach to examine your behavior and give you a plan to improve your approach?

If not, you validate your husbands concern that counseling is about fixing him (assuming that is what it is. That may not be a good assumption.)

Did you say to him, well I'm sure I could improve as a wife, so I'm going to counseling anyway, with or without you?
I understand. It can be difficult to live with such people.
Like I said before, finance has been big news. You probably couldn't pick a worse time fiscally to choose to divorce.

What troubles me about this is like I said before, you nail him on not meeting your emotional needs at this time. Yet you ignore the fact that apparently, financial security is one of his primary needs. You blow it off.

Yet you want sympathy when he blows off your needs. You can't have it both ways. No one is arguing that he should have left you there, or been so uncaring.

But then neither should you. This is obviously one of his major needs and you appear as uncaring about this as he was about your concerns or situations.

Ugly behavior. But how is that any different from him lying on the ground financially saying how hurtful a divorce would be, you shake your head that the marriage is not worth saving and walk away.

You are essentially proposing to do what you found so distasteful when he did it.

So either it's wrong for you to do what you are proposing to do, or it's OK for him to have done what he did. You can't have it both ways.

You said that things were getting better, or that you thought the marriage would be OK, then you got pregnant and things changed.

So I ask, what changed? Did you stop doing what you did when things were getting better because you were giving all of your time and energy to the new baby boy?

I don't doubt things are bad.

My doubt is two fold. I doubt it's all him, and I doubt things have to always be this way.

I think you can find help here, if you choose to divorce or if you choose to examine your contribution first to see if you can improve your approach to marriage using the MB plan before you pull the plug.

Here is the way I see it. You'll need the MB skills for any future relationship. So why not invest 6 months in addressing you behavior, without making excuses or complaints about his.

If after this time, you have eliminated all of your Love Busters and are meeting his needs and things are not getting better, AND he will not enter the program with you, then pull the cord.

You may think you've done everything you can.

I encourage you to work with either Steve Harley or Jennifer to see if there are areas you need to address in your approach to marriage.

It will not be wasted time. It will either improve your current marriage, or make you an even better catch for a future spouse.

OMG, I have seen everything now.

I simply ask you to read my post above this one. You are free to disagree.

You are wrong about my willingness to accept an answer.

I think I have valid concerns. I have no expectation either way that you should answer them.

I wish you well in whatever course you ultimately decide to take. There really is nothing more that I can say. I've said what I believe. I do believe you mis-judge my intentions, as well as my open-mindedness.

It is your right to judge me wrongly if you wish.

Yep.

Enlightened_Ex,

Any advice that you give loses it's meaning because of your tone. All you want to do is look for ways to prove that my story is false or that I'm the one who's F'ed up my marriage. How can you jump to SO MANY frickin conclusions based on what little details I have given? Who has THAT MUCH TIME to spend disecting other people's posts?

Your first post to me was nice and helpful. I thought about what you said all day. But then I get home and read the rest of the crap you spewed at me and it makes me want to discount absolutely everything you have said and ever will say to me. Is it a habit of yours to go after people like that on this message board, or were you just having a particularly bad day today?

I could give you millions of examples of the bad things my husband has done to our marriage. I could give you examples of what I have done as well. The only reason I went into detail at all is because people were asking for more of it. But honestly, it's no one's business and totally not the point of this thread at all.

I have read this message board for a couple of years now but never posted. I have been to counseling on my own. My husband won't go. I have been to our pastor. I have talked to my family. I have done everything I can these last 3 years. I AM DONE. END OF STORY.

I have questions now about custody and our mortgages. That's it. Thanks for the marital advice, but it is not needed.

In a respectful tone, I ask, now who is jumping to conclusions. I've validated that his behavior leaves much to be desired. I've pointed out that your behavior has not been fully described.

I know that no one is without sin. My former wife had an affair and left, yet there was still many things I had to work on.

So I know that no matter how bad the other person is, we all have things of our own to work on.

I don't say that to pick you apart like you have assumed. I'm asking you to think about. If you don't want to fine. But don't assume that I'm unwilling to accept that, or any other assumption.

I was asking to think about scenarios as well as to think about how it looks when someone glosses over their own contributions and runs down their spouse.

You may be perfect for all I know. But it doesn't look good when someone is critical of another, and doesn't enumerate their own issues.

That is ONE of the behaviors we've seen waywards engage in. Not saying that it's an indicator of a wayward mindset, or an active affair.

So as medc asked, think about how these things look to folks who've lived with an unfaithful spouse.

Not a bad day. Staying a little late at work, thanks for asking. I just know there are two sides to every story. That's all. So I'm asking for information regarding the other side.

Nothing personal, no attack intended. We all suffer from how our person experiences distort our perceptions. I do, medc does, and I'd wager you do.

Does that make any of us bad? No. But I think we need to be aware of this, and understand that other adults may see things differently.

It doesn't make either of us horrible people for seeing this situation different. We are each going to focus on different aspects.

I think medc has some valid points, I think you have some valid points, I think I have some valid points. It would be sad to dismiss any persons valid points because you don't like how or what someone said.

You are always free to do so. But it would be sad.

I understand. I ask you to understand this. The name of this site is Marriage Builders. The divorce topic here, in my opinion, is geared primarily towards those who've tried the MB plan and it has not restored romantic love.

So from my point of view, I've not seen you talk in any detail about such a plan, any efforts. I simply see your complaints about him as well as a request for information about divorcing. Details about your efforts to save the marriage are vague at best.

I think it's important to understand that almost every wayward spouse has said many of the things you've said, such as:

1. We're not compatible.
2. The problem is when he...
3. I've tried everything and it never got better.

Even folks who are NOT wayward say such things. So asking the questions doesn't mean that one thinks you are a bad person, a cheat, or anything like that.

I personally think that UNILATERALLY ending a marriage is a selfish move. But I don't get to make that decision for you, nor do I want to.

I personally think you do act in ways that are similar to your complaints about him. And in my logic driven mind, it seems odd to see someone complain about XYZ behavior while doing something similar. So while medc thinks I'm nuts about the money/falling thing, I think that's because he's looking at the differences and not the similarties. You can find both in those examples. It's that question of perspective. We each have one. We each see different things.

I understand. Like I said, I pray you the best regardless how this ultimately turns out.

My last bit of unsolicited advice is that if you've been to your pastor AND your husband is also a member of the church, that you consider the process spelled out in Matthew 18 about church discipline.

Church discipline is not to oust the sinning believer from the fellowship, but to confront the member about sinful behavior in an attempt to win that member back into a right relationship with Christ.

You may be done. But that doesn't mean God is done with your husband. So perhaps you could consider that. Some good, Godly men might be able to reach your husband in ways you've never considered and be effective in their efforts.

Or maybe not.

Or maybe it's already been tried and he refuses.

Like I said, I pray that all is well with you and your family.


I think if you ever plan to marry again, the advice will be useful. After all, even if you did everything else correctly, you still said yes to this man. So at the very least, look at the steps that lead you to marrying him, and how you could have missed how bad a match he was.

God bless, and goodnight.

Oh, she hasn't earned the right to be here. Now it makes sense. The poster needs to satisfy your curiosity about what efforts she has made to restore her marriage...and then she can post on that forum... yes, I know I am stretching it a bit...but that IS how you are coming across.



I personally think this is a crock. Some marriages should be unilaterally ended. Some people deserve to be left.

Hi Lots,

I'm not bashing, I'm hoping to point out some stuff you may already know. I'm tired and may not phrase things the best way but I'm not thinking ill of you, KWIM?


Ok, if you've read this board for a coupla years then you know how this works... ppl here only post if they wanna post (which is their right); sometimes ppl have suspicions and just aren't inclined to help someone if they disagree with that person's actions (which is their right); and sometimes threads get derailed while we "talk" amongst ourselves (sorry about that; but it prolly won't stop any time soon).

I was suspicious but I still answered what questions I could, then asked you some questions. Thanks for answering. I haven't been able to think of anything else useful to say.

I appreciate that you didn't come here to bash your H or blame him. You simply answered questions when asked. I think the additional information was useful for us readers. It prolly means some of us are more willing to try to help and offer advice than we would have been otherwise.

I agree with encouraging you to give MB a try in restoring the love to your family... except in cases of abuse. You tripping and falling while holding your baby while your H walked on is not a pretty picture.

I think it is absolutely possible for a man to be a poor H, even an abusive H, and still seem to be an "excellent father" especially if the child is still very young. There are tons of examples of abusive parents and manipulative parents who are mean to their spouse and nice to their kids... until the kids get older, then they get the same treatment. Or if the abuse is directed to one gender or the other, a parent can be nasty to their spouse and nasty to kids of one gender but not the other gender.

If I knew anything useful to tell you about custody or divorce, I would.

That's a mighty big assumption you make about motives. I comment on what was or was not observed and you fill in your own motives for me, after accusing me of doing what you are now doing.

How rich!
So are you going to jump all over yourself with the same enthusiasm you apparently have for me. Or do you hold yourself to a lower standard than you hold others?

So I guess that means that you are able to judge, but others are not? Is that what you are saying? You are critical when you THINK others are passing a judgment, but seem rather quick to judge others, to make assumptions, etc.

You complain about derailing, but I contend it's YOUR judgments in many of these topics that derail them. You started with the assumptions of motive, etc.

I gave some possible scenarios and ASKED the OP if they have merit. You ASSUME that I'm making judgments about her character accuse me of making assumptions and then blast me for it.

I have no axe to grind with you. I simply ask that you hold yourself to the same standard you are trying to hold others.

Which, ironically is what I've asked the OP to consider as well. Not saying she does or doesn't. Just saying when it LOOKS like there MAY be two standards.

I figure you would think that. Go back and read the posts. The poster came here with a topic to discuss...have YOU addressed her issues? Or have you stuck with your agenda?

She stated numerous times that she wanted to discuss certain things and after she addressed that there were no other man issues, you still continued on your course as though she owed you a further explanation.

Your failure to recognize abuse in this case is confusing. And then to have you liken it to her husband laying on the ground financially is very disturbing. Look, we are both BH's...but not every marriage can/should be saved.....some people deserve to be "left" and should not have the ability to be a lousy partner year after year.

I have no "enthusiasm for you"...I address things as they come up...regardless of who is involved. I have battled with my friends and agreed with those I don't care for...I work with the details provided. I slam people when I see it is needed...and defend those that I feel are being needlessly harassed. That is what I saw and see happening here.