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I don't know if she is mentally ill, it feels like that to me. She has her own sessions with the MC and he is a psychiatrist.

I'm sorry that I'm letting you guys down but If she walks out on us I am done. She never tries to do anything hard, just sort of coasts along. I just don't get her at all right now and I'm way way out on a limb asking the kids to give her another chance.
Sam is crazy angry that I am doing this.




Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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Hon, NOBODY here would tell you to keep her around. Every person has his own breaking point. I'm pretty much of a wuss when it comes to standing up for myself with my H, but the one thing I told him when I married him is that if he ever had an affair or ever hit me, I was gone. No second chances. Couldn't handle the self-doubt.

So please don't worry about disappointing anyone. Do what you need for you and your kids.

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6
This is your life! We're here to help. You need to do what is right for your family. Whatever that is.

Now I find this recent action of her very strange. She ate a meal with all of you and it felt awkward....ok. Then she tried to negotiate her independent behavior (independent behavior is not only an LB, but can be a huge stepping stone to A's). You did not budge so she is threatening to move out to get her way? And she thinks by moving out she is going to suddenly grow up and learn to be a mother without actually being one? (good one)

Wow


You have your boundaries...maintain them. If she cannot fully commit to you and your family AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I don't believe she ever will. Her selfishness is mind blowing. Her family is in dire need of her being there and being the mother and she is choosing her own FUN TIME over them?


Again wow



Mrs 6 if you are reading here, please reevaluate your priorities. You will never get a second chance like this. Your children are growing fast and are learning terrible lessons from you. You need to step up and do what is right by them and your H. You can do this. You can be the wife and mother they need. It may seem impossible, but it's not. Stop hiding, stop feeling sorry for yourself...CHANGE YOU. Doing the right thing will begin the process. Independent behavior is for teenagers not for a mother of 5.





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Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
She said she thinks she needs to live alone to learn.

Living alone is not going to help her learn to be a wife and mother. Living with the family and getting involved in the family is going to teach her how to be a part of the family.

Of course, I'm not saying anything you don't already know, 6.

GREAT job on setting a realistic boundary and sticking to it. I think it's very reasonable. You really can't build a marriage with someone that picks girls' night out over their husband's rational boundary.

I must say I'm pretty floored by this. She seemed so remorseful, so willing to come clean, answer questions, do some really tough stuff. The unwillingness to give up the independent behavior is a surprise.

I forget who said it, but the observation that her independent behavior is probably a way to escape problems, and the fact that her problems are to a large degree *caused* by her independent behavior, made a really good point.

I really hope your wife loses this stubborn streak and gives it a sincere try for at least six months. I think she'll be astonished at how differently she perceives things, and how much the marriage can improve, when both parties make it their top priority.

If she doesn't buckle down and commit, if she can't see that the marriage and family HAVE to be top priority, then nobody here is going to blame you in the slightest for cutting the strings now. You are doing such an awesome job.

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Mrs 6YL

Please come post here!

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Mrs 6YL, I have a thought for you. At the end of one's life, there's going to be one important aspect to consider. What kind of effect did you have on your loved ones? Will you have a flock of people at your funeral, all bragging about how you loved everyone, helped everyone, influenced your kids in a good way, gave a good example, and became a great source of comfort for your children and loved ones?

Or will you be like my FIL, who had 3 people at his funeral (me, my H, and his brother) because he lived his life with one purpose - pleasing himself?

Please stop and think about what's really important in your life.

Unless you turn things around right now, your children will be spending the rest of their lives in therapy to overcome your lack of love for them. And making bad decisions because that's what you taught them. And being miserable the rest of their lives. I watched my brother do that because of our father, watched him fight off suicide time after time because he believed himself unlovable. Please don't do that to your kids.

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Thanks Catperson,

She won't post here, mostly because she is not a computer person. She is going to see the MC/Psych today because I insisted that she go. I called and he is going to evaluate her to see if he thinks she has some mental illness. Maybe some medication will help her out.

I'm trying not to have a pity party for myself here but this all feels super unfair. I just have to keep reminding myself that it is all for the children. Sam is not willing to even speak to W and he insists that I am the crazy one for thinking she will change. I apologized to him that he never got to have a mom but I'm telling him that I'm trying to change that for his siblings. He says he is not mad at me but he thinks I am too focused on getting a mom for the kids to see the real situation.

W agreed that the psych can talk to me about her session with him today. So I will get a short call after.



Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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IMO, that's excellent progress.

fwiw, I'm not sure you should stay with her after the kids are gone. I guess it will all depend on her, huh?

However, you taking the steps to be a responsible citizen and father can only do everyone good, especially for your kids. I kind of equate your situation with mine. All my D18's life, I let my my basically run our lives because I was too scared and weak to speak up. Now that she's a senior, I am finally (!) getting enough courage to start testing him on certain things. It's so hard!

But I had to, because I saw D18 suffering from watching me cave time after time. We had to go to a therapist as a family to get the therapist to make him understand that, as a high school junior, she needed to be allowed to go to the mall with her friends, without us! Just this year was she allowed to go on a real date.

So, just as she suffered from an unrealistic, overprotective father, your kids suffered for not having a mom. So the steps you're taking now are vital for them. Not saying they have problems, but that they have a skewed view of what a family life should be.

D18's boyfriend's father owns a business overseas. BF says he's seen his dad maybe a total of one year, 365 days, in his whole life. So he doesn't even know what it's like to have a normal relationship with a father, but he's uber-close to his mom. Kind of like you, huh? He said he's finally gotten to the point where he doesn't resent his dad, he understands he had to do the work, but I don't believe him. You're taking the steps to help your kids achieve that.

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Quote
After dinner, W was trying to negotiate about the girl’s nights and weekends. I calmly said it is not happening.

I agree with you 100% here. In any M, the whole “girls night out” is a bad idea, but especially in a situation where the W has spent way too much time on outside activites, for too long. I would compare it to an alcoholic, who quit drinking. They can never go into a bar again. I know it is radical for her, but the two of you really need to find “couples friends” and activites to take part in together.

What is the reasoning for this girl’s night out stuff anyway? What are they doing that the H’s cannot join in? Are these other friends all single? Why don’t they bring their H’s along?

This may be a change for the two of you to start negotiating a plan together. If she thinks that the only way she can “go out and have fun” is with an all girl group, then she needs to discover that there are a lot of great things to do together as a couple.

Quote
She said she thinks she needs to live alone to learn. She thinks we can date and still have SF but she would live by herself and take care of herself

Again, you are right about this. You do not learn how to be a good mom, and wife, by living alone. You learn how to be single that way. And if she wants to do that – she needs to fully support herself. A job, paying her own bills, etc.

Quote
She said she doesn't know what to do. I said try working hard at something for once in your life. She went down stairs to sleep so first night on the new bed is alone for me.

I agree with you here as well. 100% . In fact, if I have one very small 2x4 for you, it is just to say this: You should have taken this stance 10 years ago.
You want her to stay, as long as she can finally pick up the slack and become the W and Mom she can be. If she is not willing to do that – just keeping her around for the kid’s sake, does not seem like a good plan, if she can not commit to them.





Last edited by womanoffaith5; 09/30/08 01:26 PM.

Married 18 years
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6, as everyone else here has said, your boundaries are reasonable and rational and you continue to take steps to do things in the best interest of your family. Good call on the psych visit for your W and good call to enforce your boundary.

Your W has to give up the independent behavior. A lot of waywards seem to have a very hard time with this, but it is non-negotiable and critical to any real recovery. And somehow I don't think anyone here thinks you should tolerate a fake recovery.


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WOF,

I only got a small 2x4 so I'm doing better. I'm going to talk to the psych shortly. Maybe he can shed some light on this for me.

I'm feeling like she does not appreciate what I am doing here for her and for the kids. I am sitting on a mountain of painful stuff and providing all the support I can to give her the chance to be the mother the kids deserve and to give her a relationship with the kids. If someone, who I had hurt so much, offered me something like this I could never even express the gratitude I would feel. She doesn't even say thank you, just saying how hard it will be for her.




Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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How did her parents treat her? Siblings?

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Catperson, WOF, JL, ...

I had a long conversation with the psych and he thinks she may have something called schizoid personality disorder. It is bad but not like she hears voices or anything. It basically means that she likes to be alone, does not like deep relationships and is very inwardly centered. He wants to speak with her again but if this is the case it is very very hard to treat. Mostly because people with this don't really want to change. It is also unlikely to respond to drugs.

I'm going to read about this condition but from his description it did make sense, it has also removed any hope I had that this would get better.


Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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what about all her girls nights out, and girls weekends?

If she is choosing to go away, and spend time with her friends, then it doesn't sound like she likes to be alone. A weekend away - golf getaway, spa getaway, with friends doesn't sound much like alone time.

Do you think she really did spend all those weekends with girl friends? Or did she maybe go away by herself?

Has she heard this possible diagnosis yet? If so, what was her reaction?

This is very intersting to me, it makes me wonder, even more, why she had the sudden awakening recently.

hang in there friend.




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Originally Posted by 6yearsleft
Chrysalis,

Dinner went ok. D16 chose a large salad with grilled chicken. Pretty easy so prep was not too difficult. W sat and ate with us but it was awkward.

After dinner, W was trying to negotiate about the girls nights and weekends. I calmly said it is not happening. Then she said maybe she should take some time away and learn how to be a grown up. I said your kids are growing up now, this is not practice. She said she thinks she needs to live alone to learn. She thinks we can date and still have SF but she would live by herself and take care of herself.

I kind of lost it at this and I told her to go ahead and move out then she will never be a mother to the kids and I will file for D the day she leaves. She said she doesn't know what to do. I said try working hard at something for once in your life. She went down stairs to sleep so first night on the new bed is alone for me.

I'll call the MC tomorrow.

6,
I have only posted to you once or twice, but I have been following your story. Also, I read what you said the Psychiatrist said regarding her possible diagnosis. But, I still have to ask you--What has she been doing on these girls night out and weekends away? Has she been going to bars with them? Do you know how she has been spending her time? I can't help but wonder if there is continued wayward behavior such as one night stands? I don't want to add to your burdens which I think are pretty large, but I just need to ask you about this.


Lake
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Lake, WOF

The girls nights our are usually something like a spa visit, hair and nails etc, or possibly a movie. These friends are very casual friends not deep relationships. She doesn't have any deep relationships that I know of. Even with her own family.

I have access to private detectives and over the years I have had them watch he every now and then. Nothing was ever superstitious about another OM. Also when the A was going on I certainly knew about it as did the kids. She is not good at being sneaky.

She does know about the diagnosis, agrees to a second opinion but also seems to think that it gets her off the hook for changing. Which is not true but as the Psych said people with this condition don't really want change. The biggest clue to me that he may (I'm not convinced yet) be right is how quickly she seems to have given up on a deep relationship with the children. Also how she doesn't really seem to understand that the time and commitment is what makes that relationship, it is not simply declarative.


Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: Sep 2003
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I did a random google search and found this on a mental health website
Quote
lack of desire for sf experiences, individuals with this disorder have few friendships and often do not marry.

If this is typical of the disorder, it doesn't sound like your W.....





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WOF,

I am also reading the guides, she has some of the signs and not others. It is confusing to me. We are going to get a second opinion and even the doc said it is hard to diagnose these things. I am wary because I don't want it to be true for many reasons and I think we tend to make everything a disease. If you look up personality disorders it pretty much covers all sorts of jerks.

Even if it is true it seems that she has to be willing to do the hard work or nothing will change. On the SF thing, we did have alot of years and even now where the SF means something to me and it seems like she is just getting off.


Last edited by 6yearsleft; 09/30/08 05:51 PM.

Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,173
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Quote
She does know about the diagnosis, agrees to a second opinion but also seems to think that it gets her off the hook for changing.

I was afriad that would happen.

It seems to me that often times people will use a "diagnosis" as their way out. Almost like "thank goodness, a real live diagnosis, now I have an excuse"

I am still very intrigued by her spa trips with the girls. When I am looking for a girl friend to go to the spa with, or watch a movie with, it is only the ones that I have a deep relationship with. The ones I want to share my feelings with.

Do you actaully know any of these women that she hangs out with????



Married 18 years
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WOF,

I sort of know them, they have come by our house to pick her up. They are all married with kids. There have been alot of them through the years. You can believe me that she does not have a single close friend, mostly because she is not a good friend and she doesn't seem to care about that. I still don't see that as a disease like depression or manic, or OCD.


I do wish he had just said to her that she was behaving like a selfish child and needed to shape up. If you actually read the descriptions of the disorder it reads like the person is self absorbed, shallow, narcissistic and selfish. When did that become a disease instead of a character flaw. Especially when the treatment is to talk about it, work on being a good person until you get better.

I'm thinking of giving the Psych copies of the letters from the A. Maybe that can give him more insight. I'm feeling like a jerk now because I'm not going to let her stay if she doesn't work on being a real mother and maybe she is not capable of being a good mother. I feel trapped.


Last edited by 6yearsleft; 09/30/08 06:20 PM.

Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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